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Old 11-11-2013, 10:33 AM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I agree with that Bill.

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Old 11-11-2013, 02:55 PM   #52
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I agree with that Bill.
The small bit of BJJ I've experienced is an excellent system, based on meaningful principles and progressive development of skills. And it came from judo, but evolved. However, your breadth of experience transcends "martial arts," entirely.

And thank you and yours on this day and every day.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #53
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
The small bit of BJJ I've experienced is an excellent system, based on meaningful principles and progressive development of skills. And it came from judo, but evolved. However, your breadth of experience transcends "martial arts," entirely.
BJJ guys are BIG on technique, in my experience. Anybody that thinks waza doesn't hold up under live resistance should roll with some BJJ practitioners. They always have a short, medium and long game in mind.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #54
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Yes David it does. I just spent a wonderful evening in Dakar Senegal introducing them to BJJ. What is interesting is it is a different experience than normal for me. I typically do not get asked to go to Judo schools in the west to teach ne waza. However, in Dakar, the are very open to learning and exposing themselves to new and different methods/techniques apparently.

I spent some time explaining that Jiu Jitsu is not different than Judo that it is the same...only the rules and assumptions are sometimes different, which causes us to approach our training differently.

I did not teach them jiu jitsu from a sport BJJ perspective, but ne waza that would be very useful to them in a Judo competition, but also is based on solid foundations of self defense.

So we spent time on some basics and, of course, did not cover things like the 50/50 guard, berimbolo, inverted guard on dela riva guard, which are all great things, but things I don't consider foundational.

thanks for you thoughts!

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Old 11-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #55
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
BJJ guys are BIG on technique, in my experience. Anybody that thinks waza doesn't hold up under live resistance should roll with some BJJ practitioners. They always have a short, medium and long game in mind.
The good ones do. I am still developing my "game" and it changes over time. Some guys have very superficial or linear games that do not have many branches, sequels, or options.

YOu have to train, train. train wtih kata and with very precise and detailed training to commit the smallest details to muscle memory. you become very efficient and economical in montion and spent energy. You then develop Optoins...and then think two or three moves ahead with all those options stored up and ready to be the answer if you need it.

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Old 11-11-2013, 04:09 PM   #56
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Hi Kevin,

Have you experienced Senegalese Wrestling

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Old 11-11-2013, 04:13 PM   #57
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

yes, a little. with my friend that is the Senegalese National Laamb Champion.

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Old 11-11-2013, 04:19 PM   #58
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I did not teach them jiu jitsu from a sport BJJ perspective, but ne waza that would be very useful to them in a Judo competition, but also is based on solid foundations of self defense.
I'm very impressed by the constant attention to making the other fellow bear all the weight, and if he does it with muscle, he's finishing himself with every move. Must be why I always got beaten so badly in judo...

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:04 PM   #59
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

We took a Haganah FIGHT class last week, and it was pretty interesting. Being a Krav Maga offshoot, they have a good "martial intent". There's not much finesse at the level they were instructing us (we white-belted it that night), but I did absorb enough to apply some of the concepts. Someone mentioned their general plan was to contain the attack, dissolve the violence, achieve your objectives, then spit them out.

Guy attacks you, you pull him in, elbow his face, throw a bunch of knees, step on his ankle and push him down. I'm thinking, "Now this is something I can improve upon." We (aikidoka) have that finesse. Nothing I learned there had any elements that compared to the precision we have, but they are refreshingly frank about what we're all doing there.

I'm not going Steven Seagal or anything, but if those Haganah guys had some of my waza, they would be.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:54 AM   #60
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

what i personally have found that i like about the israeli systems is their violence of decisive and forward action. what i dont like is the assumption over the degree of control you have in a situation. did they start u off in failed or bad postions...balance broken...u are mounted...a gus is on your back...you atr kn his Guard?

once we understand the violence of action and how to disrupt your opponent...we then must increase the level of failure on our part by puttin ourselves in bad positions and learn how to protect ourselves and recover to a better position

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Old 11-12-2013, 04:53 AM   #61
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I still say that my Aikido took a quantum leap forward after I did a little Judo training. Lessons learnt there were not that difficult to put into an Aikido context.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:40 AM   #62
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
what i personally have found that i like about the israeli systems is their violence of decisive and forward action. what i dont like is the assumption over the degree of control you have in a situation. did they start u off in failed or bad postions...balance broken...u are mounted...a gus is on your back...you atr kn his Guard?

once we understand the violence of action and how to disrupt your opponent...we then must increase the level of failure on our part by puttin ourselves in bad positions and learn how to protect ourselves and recover to a better position
In working out and speaking with our Haganah group, they [also] emphasize decisive, aggressive, pressing movement. Even their small arms and edged weapons work is pressing (i.e. a foward-stepping draw and press of the weapon). The instructor is accomplished in BJJ, judo and he teaches basic combat at McPherson (I think). He also happens to be about 6'3" and 225lb. so that helps too. I like his program and his approach - he is working to make the program more real for smaller persons without significant physical advantages.

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Old 11-13-2013, 05:20 PM   #63
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Great responses. I definitely need to put more of this to the test and be more patient and allow everything to manifest in it's own time but upon reading the 'hormonal induced stress chart', I still have my concerns. I don't think anyone realistically think they can pull off a wrist lock when someone's coming at you with bad intentions... or so i hope not unless you are maybe in clinching range. Even then, there's better choices in the clinch as far as self-defense goes. That's why I find atemi to be absolutley necessary, or an experience of some sort of striking art. I know quite a few practitioners who would absolutely freeze the first time they were hit because of a lack of realistic training. I love the idea of takemusu. I know my training has only begun and with more training and experience, I'll understand the principles more and be able to effectively apply them to combat. I love all the thoughts so far.

These videos are also relevant. Check 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdlTG2lIwA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZyUub1Jn3Y

I feel like there's too much compliance in the second one but I love watching their style and the way they incorporate more realistic attacks.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:08 PM   #64
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
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..I don't think anyone realistically think they can pull off a wrist lock when someone's coming at you with bad intentions...
That must've been a tough admission. Go do 25 Kote Gaeshis and 25 Ude Garamis and get back with me. If you haven't changed your mind by then, switch schools.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:10 AM   #65
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Logan Light wrote: View Post
These videos are also relevant. Check 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdlTG2lIwA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZyUub1Jn3Y

I feel like there's too much compliance in the second one but I love watching their style and the way they incorporate more realistic attacks.
I don't know if the uke are incompetent or act as if they are. What make these clips interesting to you?

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Old 11-14-2013, 08:14 AM   #66
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Ki Symbol Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Logan Light wrote: View Post
Great responses. I definitely need to put more of this to the test and be more patient and allow everything to manifest in it's own time but upon reading the 'hormonal induced stress chart', I still have my concerns. I don't think anyone realistically think they can pull off a wrist lock when someone's coming at you with bad intentions... or so i hope not unless you are maybe in clinching range. Even then, there's better choices in the clinch as far as self-defense goes. That's why I find atemi to be absolutley necessary, or an experience of some sort of striking art. I know quite a few practitioners who would absolutely freeze the first time they were hit because of a lack of realistic training. I love the idea of takemusu. I know my training has only begun and with more training and experience, I'll understand the principles more and be able to effectively apply them to combat. I love all the thoughts so far.

These videos are also relevant. Check 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdlTG2lIwA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZyUub1Jn3Y

I feel like there's too much compliance in the second one but I love watching their style and the way they incorporate more realistic attacks.
In a real street situation I am going to use utemi! I personally believe that it is not emphasized more is because many sensei don't want you to become reliant on it at the expense of being able to execute the techniques and connect with the attacker. Once you recognize which openings grease the wheel to give the appropriate response for the moment you can apply many techniques that may not have seemed like options initially. Oh and when you apply concepts such as leading so you have them grab you when and where you want them to and not where they do, yes you can definitely apply a wrist-lock to someone with bad intentions-so satisfying!
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:38 AM   #67
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I think this 11 seconds says it all about knife fights and intent and why kote gaeshi doesn't work well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0

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Old 11-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #68
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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I think this 11 seconds says it all about knife fights and intent and why kote gaeshi doesn't work well.
Exactly.

However many people around are doing things like the ones shown in the clip Logan recently linked thinking they are training in knife defense.

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Old 11-14-2013, 10:00 AM   #69
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

The first seconds of a a fight is a bridge to using your martial art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6CdH6xHcgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hJveJ8Hp0
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:13 AM   #70
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

The problem is that very few people take the time to really understand the dynamics of knives. We have learned most of our "customs" courtesy of Kali/Escrima which I think is very good stuff, but primarily based on a dueling culture. This paradigm seems to perpetuate our martial cultures.

The issue we have, which I believe is aptly illustrated in the 11 second video is that when the knife is revealed, we are already way behind the power curve. we must first process that the knife is there, orient on it then decide what action we need to take. That is only our side of the fight. Our opponent has already decided, in most cases, his action and is employing it.

The only exception may be if we take pre-emptive action or maybe he has shown his cards and is waving it around foolishly with no real initial intent to use it other than to wield power or something. In those cases, yes, maybe we can enter first (act) before he does and then we can establish some sort of control, which could appropriately lead to a kote gaeshi which is an excellent control technique for a knife. provided that we have already off balanced and have some sort of physical control of our opponents balance or center prior to that technique.

I am not a fan of kote gaeshi as a primary control mechanism. That is, as a technique that relies on timing our grab, much of what I saw in the videos that Logan posted. IMO, that only works in a compliant of semi-compliant environment where two people are essentially dueling.

In aikido terms, I think irimi to be important. That is, you enter, disrupt and control his center, then control the weapon, and disarm. Iriminage I think is a very good thing for this, if it is done correctly. (or aspect/principles of it.

Our emotions tell us to control the weapon first. I personally believe the reality...from my training experience....demonstrates that we have already lost that battle and the damage we will receive has already happened before it happens. We must emotionally let go of that, and disrupt the whole of his attack by gaining control of the person, then the weapon. It is difficult to time the weapon and will most likely put you in a negative vortex trying to reach for it.

The video shows the victim heading to the fetal position...we do not want that...it is certain death. However, when your senses are overwhelmed by the stimulus of the attack (Observation/Orientation phase)...this is exactly what we will do if we are not trained and conditioned properly to handle a violent and overwhelming attack.

It is not easy to accept this, which is why I believe most people practice the way they do. Everybody wants a solution to a horrible problem and psychologically we like to revise bad stories to have happy endings. This is my theory why we train so incorrectly when it comes to edged weapons.

Hope this helps!

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Old 11-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #71
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

And one more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCRS97r7tlY
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:48 AM   #72
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Thanks David. gotta love Tony as much as I hate to admit it!

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Old 11-14-2013, 12:52 PM   #73
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I have a question. Why atemi is never used when you see a demo of knife attack ? I know if I get in a fight with someone using a knife I will be cut, I have to accept that. I am ok with the fact that I must do something to disrupt the attacker not the attack before thinking of disarming. A good punch to the nose should be enough to take the balance of the attacker then run or if I cannot run do a technique or something to disarm. That is why I would like to see a video where the expert shows a hit in the face or somewhere else. I saw a systema video where the instructor hit the knee of the attacker with his foot before doing anything that is what I am talking about.
Never been attacked by a knife I do not what would I do but am I in lalaland when I say the first thing I should do is to hit the assaillant by any means at my disposal.
Is there any video of knife attack where it is shown to hit before doing anything ? I never saw one but I surely never saw every video made on that kind of attack
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:08 PM   #74
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

No your not in lala land...but I think the problem is that the first few seconds you are processing/orienting on what is going on. The links to the Tony Blauer vids posted above talk a lot about the issues from Startle/Flinch (which is simply a theory BTW), and Hicks law.

The startle flinch thing is also an emotional/fear driven event as you are getting stabbed, so I think it primarily depends on many things.

For me, a punch to the nose is a very specific thing, much like Kote Gaeshi. It may or may not be appropriate...you may or may not be in a position to do it effectively.

Just like Kote Gaeshi...sure a punch or kick will work and is appropriate if that is the thing to do.

You can "what if it" all day long. What you really need to do to understand the dynamics is simply "suit up" and have some one give you some very non-compliant and realistic attacks and work through it over and over. Key word is realistic and not the crap you see in many SD videos.

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Old 11-15-2013, 02:35 PM   #75
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Kevin I understand what your are saying, the best way to find out what you can do or not is to suit up and try to approch the real thing even if possible with the emotions unleached during a real attack . I just would want to see some video where the instructor prones the role of atemi during the first seconds of the encounter, a punch to the nose, a kick to the knee... anything and see what would happen not just do a technique supposed to work.
Even in a suit up exercise you cannot do the real thing because the suit up guy will not really feel the hits or almost not so he will not stop attacking, pain or shock not being present to stop him.
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