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Old 11-08-2013, 10:27 AM   #26
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

It seems that a number of Ueshiba's pre-WWII students had aiki to various degrees. What they may not have had, was a cogent method for teaching it, other than hands-on transmission.

Perhaps that is where the real issues arose - the lack of understanding of what Ueshiba was talking about, and the possibility that what students such as Shioda might have thought were quasi-religious ramblings by O-Sensei were actually his (tai chi classics-based) technical instructions. Could that be why Shioda said (something along the lines of) that he didn't really understand what Ueshiba was saying, until late in life?
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:08 AM   #27
Robert Cowham
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I have - Inoue speaks a bit about Shioda's changes over the years in his latest book.
Chris, do you mean this one?

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%90%88%E6.../dp/4809408078

I found a link to it from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUo-0-f8I5s

That looks interesting...

Also found this review: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17599
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #28
Chris Li
 
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Chris, do you mean this one?
Actually, I was thinking of this one:

http://www.queststation.com/products...ikinyumon.html

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #29
Robert Cowham
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Actually, I was thinking of this one:
http://www.queststation.com/products...ikinyumon.html
OK.

Next question - have you read the one I referenced? Any thoughts?
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:28 PM   #30
Chris Li
 
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
OK.

Next question - have you read the one I referenced? Any thoughts?
No, I flipped through it in the bookstore and for some reason I decided not to buy it (although the reason escapes me now...).

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-29-2013, 03:44 AM   #31
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Something's been gnawing me about this post, so I did some research, and further to some comments on this subject, Shioda actually received a Daito Ryu scroll from Horikawa. I think this is evdidence that "senior members of the Kodokai" are perfectly justified in considering Shioda to have studied under their teacher. and as for this quote :

It provides its own rewards: their own art, Daitō-ryū is different from aikidō, and only the former's study can provide any real skill to those who studied its inferior off-shoot.

Well It IS different, in terms of teaching and many of the core skills. The body movement is very different, for one. There are overlaps of course, especially in some aikido "styles", but to think that aikido practicioners can just start a bit of DR practice to up their aikido (Or vice versa) does both arts a disservice.

The second bit is part is just partisanship. Every Japanese budo group indulges in this. It's unfair to single DR out in this regard IMO. In fact, Horikawa awarding a scroll to Shioda could indicate that he held Shioda and his teacher (Ueshiba) in high regard.

BTW, this scroll plus the quote from Okamoto's students verifies two out of three parts of verbal information I heard concerning this story:

Shioda learned a specific technique from Horikawa.
He received a scroll from Horikawa

The final piece was that Shioda petitioned horikawa to study on a more formal footing with him, but horikawa demurred as he considered him Ueshiba's student.

Personally, I don't give a fig for gossip and politics in budo, (and I never heard about the two weeks of secret meetings or the limos) but fair's fair. The people asserting that Shioda studied with Horikawa (how much and for how long I will not speculate) are on fairly strong ground regarding this if you bring the scroll into account. The scroll can be seen in the edition of Hiden Budo magazine February 2007. Page 25.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:35 AM   #32
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Oisin - Fascinating information regarding the scroll - I'd love to see the article. That may change my thoughts on things, depending on what the scroll is (surprisingly often, people receive honorary scrolls for one reason or another).

You write:
Quote:
Well It IS different, in terms of teaching and many of the core skills. The body movement is very different, for one. There are overlaps of course, especially in some aikido "styles", but to think that aikido practicioners can just start a bit of DR practice to up their aikido (Or vice versa) does both arts a disservice.
True - but Shioda learned Daito-ryu from Ueshiba Morihei. That's really my point.

I also think its stretching a point to say he "learned a technique." Maybe so. But if, for example, I was to visit you and say, "I saw you do "x" - would you do that to me?" and you once, do some subtle bit of aiki --ONCE - I could very well notice, "that was different." But it's doubtful that I would instantly understand it, note how it was a new element absent from my training to date, and that I'd immediately be able to incorporate it in my art. (Of course, you might reply, that's because you aren't a fraction of the martial artist Shioda was . . .).

Quote:
The final piece was that Shioda petitioned horikawa to study on a more formal footing with him, but horikawa demurred as he considered him Ueshiba's student.
Do you have a source for this?

I'm not, by the way, arguing "for" something here. The two points you raise are interesting, though contradictory. In essence, Shioda received a scroll (which usually denotes being a student), but was refused as a student.

"Unfair to single out . . ." That would suggest I'm one-sided in my debunking of myths. Given that, at least in the English language, I was the first to write out Ueshiba Morihei as being involved, even supportive, of political terrorists, I cannot really be accused of being one-sided. Unless the "one side" I'm on is a suspicion of hagiography.

I wrote the essay and the one just published on Tohei because I'm intrigued by myth-making, and how they create "reality" on the ground. Just like I was very interested to take on the myth that Takeda Sokaku was of a certain nature, that he studied a secret art, etc., in HIPS. And how from another perspective, not only the myth, but reality itself changes slightly.

Anyway, I'd love to see the HIDEN article, and love to know more about the evidence of Shioda's petition.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 11-29-2013, 12:47 PM   #33
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oisin - Fascinating information regarding the scroll - I'd love to see the article. That may change my thoughts on things, depending on what the scroll is (surprisingly often, people receive honorary scrolls for one reason or another).

You write:
True - but Shioda learned Daito-ryu from Ueshiba Morihei. That's really my point.

I also think its stretching a point to say he "learned a technique." Maybe so. But if, for example, I was to visit you and say, "I saw you do "x" - would you do that to me?" and you once, do some subtle bit of aiki --ONCE - I could very well notice, "that was different." But it's doubtful that I would instantly understand it, note how it was a new element absent from my training to date, and that I'd immediately be able to incorporate it in my art. (Of course, you might reply, that's because you aren't a fraction of the martial artist Shioda was . . .).

Do you have a source for this?

I'm not, by the way, arguing "for" something here. The two points you raise are interesting, though contradictory. In essence, Shioda received a scroll (which usually denotes being a student), but was refused as a student.

"Unfair to single out . . ." That would suggest I'm one-sided in my debunking of myths. Given that, at least in the English language, I was the first to write out Ueshiba Morihei as being involved, even supportive, of political terrorists, I cannot really be accused of being one-sided. Unless the "one side" I'm on is a suspicion of hagiography.

I wrote the essay and the one just published on Tohei because I'm intrigued by myth-making, and how they create "reality" on the ground. Just like I was very interested to take on the myth that Takeda Sokaku was of a certain nature, that he studied a secret art, etc., in HIPS. And how from another perspective, not only the myth, but reality itself changes slightly.

Anyway, I'd love to see the HIDEN article, and love to know more about the evidence of Shioda's petition.
Ellis Amdur
I"ll see if I can scan it. I"ll have to check the kanji with my wife, but it does seem like a honorary scroll, however, It's signed Horikawa kodo daito ryu aikido meijin.
I don't have a source for my third assertion that I can back up. I was originally reluctant to put it out publicly, but seeing as the other two assertions have been independently verified, I figured it at least bears consideration. I retain an open mind on it,(and what it might mean) in fact, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, so I'm just putting it out there.

Further on from your comments, I happen to agree. In fact, "understanding the myth" is vital in understanding the teachings of any traditional Japanese art, IMO.It's one of the things seriously missing when these arts make the transition to our culture. My personal take is that Shioda was attuned to "the myth/world view" from training under ueshiba, and it was this that helped make his meeting(s?) with horikawa so fruitful.

Additionally, Gadi Schor"s post about Shioda noticing the one day an uchi deshi didn't precisely align the slippers in the toilet reveals his almost uncanny level of perception. I believe that people of the calibre of Shioda and horikawa were really operating on a very refined plane. Information was being downloaded from the get go, so to speak, so Inoue sensei"s (whom I have huge respect for BTW) comments about their meeting can be perfectly true while at the same time leaving the canvas open to be filled in with more. Your previous story about encountering white crane kung fu people was similar perhaps., but imagine if you and they were so attuned to the nuances of how one should move and behave during a carefully choreographed meeting, which every gesture was packed with meaning.

As for hagiography and singling people out, I may be over-sensitive about this, but DR and its practicioners seems to come under a lot of criticism for being secretive, vague and downright dishonest, almost like its a characteristic of the Ryu.(I'm not accusing you of this). Some of these people are my friends and ani deshi. This may apply to some practicioners, but it hasn't been my experience, and through practice, I've discovered there are usually good reasons for some apparently strange behaviour. Anyway, my point was (in this instance at least) people making assertions about Shioda and horikawa could be given the benefit of the doubt. That still leaves plenty of myth making to be debunked!

Best Regards
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Old 11-29-2013, 01:17 PM   #34
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Additionally, Gadi Schor"s post about Shioda noticing the one day an uchi deshi didn't precisely align the slippers in the toilet reveals his almost uncanny level of perception. I believe that people of the calibre of Shioda and horikawa were really operating on a very refined plane.
I don't think that you even have to go that far. Horikawa and Ueshiba had the same teacher and studied (we assume) very similar things. It doesn't seem at all a stretch to me to imagine Shioda having one (or more) "aha" moments after seeing the same material that he studied under Ueshiba presented from a slightly different perspective by Horikawa. I'm sure that happened to everybody in Aikido or Daito-ryu, it's certainly happened to me often enough. Embellishment aside, that leaves the core assumption (that Shioda got something from Horikawa that he hadn't gotten from Ueshiba) reasonably plausible.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-29-2013, 01:33 PM   #35
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

This is my mistake. I completely made a mess of reading Japanese. The scroll was from ishida, Horikawa's patron, not Shioda. It is not a makimono made out to Shioda at all. I'll leave my posts up here as they hopefully will have started some fruitful discussion, but I will remove the comment from the article on Guillaume's site. I have heard about a scroll being given to Shioda, but it is only hearsay still. Apologies to Ellis, but hopefully you can run with some of my other comments.

Apologies once again.
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Old 11-29-2013, 03:13 PM   #36
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Oisin - no worries. The more interesting point is the other you raise. How much one can learn at contact.
I must say that when I cross weapons with someone, I usually know, at first touch, what they can do. I can notice that they are doing something I don't - or cannot.

But what I cannot do is, with a single touch, incorporate what they are doing and make it mine.

Which could lead, again, to the suggestion, that I've got a long way to go to reach the likes of Horikawa or Shioda, and this may simply be the answer.

OTOH, there certainly is a strain of hyper-exaggeration in Japanese martial arts, and the aiki arts in particular. (I take this on in my other recent essay on Tohei. Something happened - but not what the Aikikai --and probably Tohei himself - said.)

And having been on the end of the "single encounter making one a student" trope, seeing this as a pattern (one that Horikawa "suffered" vis a vis Sagawa) in the aiki arts, it intrigues me, as the assertion, believed, can actually effect how and with whom one trains. And what one perceives when one trains.

Best
Ellis

P.S. It's not my research, but you should see the information regarding the Kodokan and what really seems to have occurred in the "matches" that may or may NOT have occurred against jujutsu schools. Hopefully, I can negotiate some way to publish this as well.

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Old 12-14-2013, 10:44 AM   #37
patrick de block
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

By accident I found this, it is an old thread from 2008.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
There is no doubt that Shioda trained - a little - with Kodo Horikawa. It's not a secret either. I wrote to the Yoshinkan and had a very clear email exchange with one of the younger shihan. He said, essentially, "yes, everyone knows that." Horikawa came to the Yoshinkan and taught at least one open seminar, and then on several occasions (I've heard a few and up to ten or so), Shioda and some senior students met with him behind closed doors. I then wrote and asked if Shioda sensei's technique changed from that point. The young shihan said he would check with some who were there. He got back to me and said that Shioda sensei, per the senior shihan, did not change before and after. (Which could be true and could be not). I do have independent, first hand, confirmation that Shioda, himself, was somewhat discomfited when his association with Horikawa was made (sort of) public.
A couple of points - descriptions of Ueshiba, when he was NOT trying to do his "aikido" sound remarkably like Daito-ryu. Specifically, his demo at Kenkoku University in Manchuria, where Ohba Hideo, (Tomiki's 1st deshi) believed that he would be disrespectful if he didn't try to attack all in, trying to destroy Ueshiba. Ohba was highly ranked in judo, in karate and had extensive training in various weaponry as well.

Tada Hiroshi stated:

Ueshiba was furious with Ohba, because, he felt, he was not able to demonstrate what HE thought was important. Ohba recalled that Ueshiba stomped off the mat, yelling at him, "Omae wa baka."
He was mollified, however, when Sonobe Hideo, the most wonderful naginata sensei in Japan at that time ,approached him.

I highlighted the one section of the last quotation. She'd seen him and thought she knew what he could do - but he, unleashed, showed her something different. In other words, we very well could be making a mistake about Ueshiba simply basing things on his films, where he was showing what he "wanted aiki-do to be."
Which leads to a final point. Tenryu, the ex-sumotori, stated that Shioda was closer to Ueshiba's technique than anyone. Yet when we look at Shioda, we sometimes not this "sharp" and subtle technique which is, those in the know say, more Daito-ryu than Ueshiba's aiikido.
So maybe Shioda, too, was guilty of not doing Ueshiba's aikido ("That's not my aikido!"). But he very well could have been doing what he had actually learned from Ueshiba, something that Horikawa confirmed rather than it being new to him - whether or not Ueshiba himself wanted that to be his legacy.
The argument is not whether or not Shioda studied with Horikawa for a few classes - he did. The Yoshinkan states that openly. And further, I'm not denying the possibility that a few sessions with Horikawa somehow opened up a new world to Shioda. But one of the least attractive aspects of Daito-ryu society is how one teacher will claim another person as a student, after one or two lessons. Horikawa, himself, took six of his students to learn some DR jujutsu (he'd concentrated on the aiki with Takeda) from Sagawa, signed a book, and from that day forward, Sagawa stated, "Horikawa's my student."
In sum, then: No denial whatsoever that Shioda studied from Horikawa. But the evidence I've cited above suggests the strong possibility that Ueshiba could do that style as well - but he eschewed it for his own reasons.
Best
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:16 AM   #38
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

My past comes back to haunt me. And I could have written better, because in "flowing" from one sentence to another, I gave an impression that the young shihan at the Yoshinkan said Shioda had met behind closed doors. In fact, properly:
1. The young shihan confirmed (2nd hand) that everyone knew of one contact
2. As for the ten or more trainings, that was me reiterating what I'd heard.
Which was irresponsible of me, because it gives the impression that he was also confirming the "closed-door" ten or more sessions.
He also suggested - and I should have included - that there was no relationship with Yoshinkan and Daito-ryu and that if I wanted to know about Daito-ryu, I should check Kondo Katsuyuki, either by DVD or in person to see what Daito-ryu was like. I should have included this too, because it indicates that this particular young shihan (and perhaps others) were not familiar with the really significant differences between the Kodokai and Kondo's methodology.
I've addressed the public "discomfiture" issue in my essay.

This post illustrates, I must confess, how one's ideological stance - one's current belief's - can skew research, if only slightly.

The rest of the post is "moving" in the right direction. And here's the direction I am moving - one thing I've really been fascinated with is how Ueshiba's leading students are so different. Next month, I'll be posting an IHTBF column on Kobayashi HIrokazu, one of Ueshiba's leading postwar students. I will not take away the import of the essay to note this: Kobayashi's technique, which he learned, as far as anyone knows, directly from Ueshiba, sounds very much - very much - like that of the Kodokai. (I've been searching for this quotation again for awhile, but I read that Takeda Tokimune, upon observing Kobayashi, said to him something to the effect of: "This is real Daito-ryu. Not many people are doing real Daito-ryu these days." Whatever Ueshiba himself did - I still think he used each of his leading disciples as a kind of "crash-test dummy" to really work through different aspects of what he learned and discovered.
And that is one reason I think we can be too quick to assume, when one or another shihan, seems so different from others - or from the few films of Ueshiba - that Ueshiba "couldn't have taught him that." Ueshiba's compatriots - fellow students of Takeda - seem to have mastered their own style - as evidenced by how their disciples attempt to follow in their footsteps - whereas Ueshiba's disciples each seem to have been given and followed a somewhat different path.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:03 PM   #39
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Well, just to confuse things more:
Quote:
Takuma asked Kobayashi Hirokazu to run the club. It is at this point that the club went from Daito-ryu to Aikido. Since Takuma had asked Kobayashi, he said that he did well and that is how it went. Kobayashi Hirokazu Sensei had once been a student of Takuma Sensei. He was actually a pretty close student of Takuma.
This, from this interview:

One thing that can be noted from the recent work of Oliver Gaurin and Guillaume Erard: - contrary to the idea once Ueshiba left Osaka, that there was no further contact between the Aikikai and Takumakai, there was, in fact, a lot of contact, this just being one illustration of this. Hisa Takuma was actually awarded an 8th dan from the Aikikai.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:24 PM   #40
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

I've split off the discussion of Kobayashi Hirokazu in a new thread. If anyone is inclined to discuss him further, please go to that thread.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-14-2013, 05:13 PM   #41
patrick de block
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

To haunt you a bit more.

Just above the post I quoted, Dan Harden writes: 'Daito Ryu - in the Kodokai'
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:41 PM   #42
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Patrick - No haunting there. I discussed things with Dan at the time, and subsequently, with other members of the Kodokai who had more direct contact (Dan's was 2nd/3rd hand and he does not speak Japanese). It was the contradictions between various accounts that led me to seeking out a witness - someone who was actually there. And as Iposted above, I subsequently got two subsequent communications from high ranking close students of the Roppokai, who more-or-less, substantiated my essay - adding only that Shioda requested - one time - to feel - one waza, and his response was "ah, I see."

We went from a one time open seminar followed by two weeks of closed door secrecy at midnight, to a cordial visit, a courtesy demo and a single touch.

I don't think anything more will be found in "necro-ing" my own or other's past writings, as all circle around 2nd and 3rd hand suppositions - in English - of the myth of the time. That includes my own.

As I've written in about Kobayashi sensei, what is really fascinating is this: If one were to meet, for example, the most prominent exemplars of Horikawa's students, I think one would quickly say - "aha, one of the Kodokai." (Lest the sensitive object, this is not a criticism). What is fascinating about Ueshiba is one could meet Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, Tada, Tohei, Kobayashi, Saito, etc. - and not be able tell, in many respects, that they studied with the same teacher. Reading Kobayashi Hirokazu's biography, we see that for several years, he and Saito sensei were training brothers.

Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-15-2013, 12:28 AM   #43
tyawata
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

"What is fascinating about Ueshiba is one could meet Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, Tada, Tohei, Kobayashi, Saito, etc. - and not be able tell, in many respects, that they studied with the same teacher. Reading Kobayashi Hirokazu's biography, we see that for several years, he and Saito sensei were training brothers."

Interestingly, that could be equally said to students of Sokaku Takeda. Kodokai, Mainline (Katsuyuki Kondo), Takumakai look so different. In fact, Kodokai (and Roppokai) is a longtime mystery for me. They are so different from other Daito-ryu schools. Interestingly, Iwama-ryu, Yoshinkan (especially Yoshinkan till the 60's), Daito-ryu mainline and Sagawa-dojo apparently have some common waza's and curriculum which resembles each other to a certain degree, and thus even to an untrained eye can hint that they have a common origin.
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:58 AM   #44
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Tomoo - How good to hear from you again. Of course, you are certainly correct regarding Takeda Sokaku. One way (note as always to the sensitive and argumentative - one way)that Ueshiba could be considered Takeda's most dedicated student is this はばがんひろい (breadth) that both Takeda and Ueshiba displayed, as evidenced in the variety of skills and emphases that their disciples possessed).

Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-15-2013, 01:02 AM   #45
tyawata
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Hi Ellis, thanks for your reply. I think I am probably one of the earliest people who were exposed about the mystery of under whom Shioda has trained Daito-ryu in 1988 or 1989 from Okamoto Seigo sensei when I was a student at Roppo-kai and although I might have briefly mentioned it beforehand, if someone is still interested I will try to write it later.
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:05 AM   #46
tyawata
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

I think I am probably one of the earliest people who were exposed about the mystery of under whom Shioda has trained Daito-ryu, so I will write my experience here.
About my background, I joined a Yoshinkan affiliated University Aikido club in 1987 and trained there extensively and then joined Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Roppokai in the end of 1988 or in early 1989 and cross trained in both organizations for about a year. Roppokai was still a small organization with around 40 students, and Okamoto Seigo Sensei has just published a small pamphlet about Daito-ryu through which I have discovered him.

Okamoto Sensei accepted me kindly although I informed him that I was a Yoshinkan Aikido club student and that I wanted to keep training there. After training sessions there was usually a rather light drinking party among dojo students which I sometime joined, and sometime Okamoto sensei himself also joint it and we heard a lot of stories regarding Daito-ryu from him (but in retrospect interestingly never about Aikido and Morihei Ueshiba. I guess this was so because I was there).

One day, I had the courage to ask him about his opinion of Gozo Shioda. Interestingly he pointed out to me that he does not recognize Shioda as an Aikidoka. He said he recognize Shioda as a Daito-ryu Master. A top class Daito-ryu Master who could display a very high level of "Aiki" which he said was rare today (in 1988 or 89) even among current top class Daito-ryu teachers. Then he said that this means that the teacher who has taught Shioda must be a Daito-ryu master of an incredible high level of skill, someone who stands out in Daito-ryu history. But he also stated his belief that it cannot be Ueshiba, as films of Ueshiba do not show any signs of "Aiki", nor does present day Aikikai or other Aikido schools (including Yoshinkan) seems to be oriented to enhance ability of "Aiki".

So, he came to the conclusion, that Shioda must have a secret Daito-ryu teacher, not someone normal, someone with an extraordinary ability. Then he named me a name which, Okamoto sensei said he suspected for a long time as the "real" teacher of Gozo Shioda. It was Yukiyoshi Sagawa. He urged me to ask some old timers inside Yoshinkan about any additional Daito-ryu training which Shioda must have received from Sagawa. He said there must be some evidence or some eyewitness or rumors about Shioda training under Sagawa. I was just 19 to 20 years old and being young is really scary. I asked literally all top Yoshinkan shihan, from Ando sensei, Chida sensei to Takeno sensei (except Inoue sensei as he was still shihan of the Metropolitan Police Department), whether they had ever heard about Shioda training under Sagawa. Every time the same stunned face from those sensei's, a short guessing and then the same answer "No, I never heard of it".

I came back to Okamoto sensei and reported him about my inquiry during an after training party at a Gashuku session, it was then that he said it must be the occasion when Kodokai has visited Yoshinkan and did a demonstration in 1977 (or 78, I forgot), that Shioda must have realized about Aiki and must have stolen the secret by just watching it. From what I heard Kodo Horikawa did not do a demonstration as he was already very frail, and that most of the demonstration was done by Inoue sensei (the second head master of Kodokai), and Okamoto sensei himself. At that party, I heard from him that Horikawa sensei invited one student of Shioda to grab his hand (which I later found out that it was Yasuhisa Shioda, the son of Gozo Shioda) and performed an Aiki age on him.

After the party one of the top students (then) of Roppo-kai approached me and said "you must find out the student who grabbed Horikawa sensei's hand. I have heard stories that Shioda sometimes has chased out other students from Yoshinkan and trained with him in secret".
But I had the impression that even after Sagawa was eliminated as the possible teacher of Shioda, Okamoto sensei himself did not really believe that Shioda has stolen "Aiki" from Horikawa by just watching it.
For a while I considered the possibility of Sagawa been the "true" teacher of Shioda but later dropped the idea. Shioda respected Morihei Ueshiba so much till the end of his life, no he was actually worshipping Morihei Ueshiba so much that he wanted to believe that Ueshiba had the ueber mensch quality of dodging the bullet, so that he accidentally exaggerated and said that he "saw" it (I was there when he exaggerated the story).

I cannot believe that some can keep respecting, worshiping his own teacher even after (be it in 1977,78 when meeting Kodo Horikawa or receive secret trainings from Sagawa in the 1950's) discovering that his beloved teacher did not have "it" and must therefore search for another one. So I believe the truth is that the teacher who has taught Shioda was a Daito-ryu master of an incredible high level of skill, someone who stands out in Daito-ryu history and that his name was Morihei Ueshiba.

Last edited by tyawata : 12-15-2013 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 05:51 PM   #47
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Tomoo - thank you for this account - it fleshes out things in a fascinating way - and corrects, I believe, an error I made in my original piece. I wrote, based on my understanding, that Horikawa visited in the mid 1950's. But you write that it was 1977 or 1978. Could you confirm this? Because my citing the earlier date did not correspond to some history regarding the Yagyukai. If I can properly correct this, it makes the discussion "tighter."

Also, regarding what prompted Okamoto sensei to such thoughts in the first place - I think we would be mistaken to rely too much on films. Ueshiba apparently wanted to show the world something different from what he could do, both for ideological reasons and perhaps spiritual (hence his outrage at Ohba at Kenkoku University at being "forced" to use this 'sharp skills' to manage an all-out attack). I wonder if Okamoto sensei could have met and felt Shirata sensei - and perhaps Tomiki, were he willing to show that side of his skills (which he eschewed for ideological reasons), if he would have perceived Shioda as less unique amongst Ueshiba's cadre of students.

Best
Ellis

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-15-2013 at 05:59 PM.

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Old 12-15-2013, 07:29 PM   #48
tyawata
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Hi Ellis

I think when this discussion was raised in the old Aikido journal forum, I remember Stan Pranin also mentioning that this meeting occurred in 1977 or 78 (He mentioned a more concrete date, I remember).

Okamoto sensei himself explained to me why this meeting occurred. At that time, Horikawa sensei's daughter was living in or around Tokyo with her children and although the children were visiting their grandfather every year Horikawa sensei desperately wanted to see them at their home and know how they were doing. As Horikawa sensei was becoming very frail every year, and as his family and student sensed that he will not live for a longtime, they came to the decision that this (1977,78) was probably the last chance to arrange a trip for him, so the whole family and his senior student accompanied him to assist him. 

Tadao Ogawa, the former student of Shioda and who became a student of Horikawa then informed Yoshinkan about the trip and Shioda and Yoshikan arranged for a demonstration of Kodokai. Okamoto sensei said that Yoshinkan paid full respect to Kodo Horkawa so that they treated Kodo Horikawa as a Kyoudai deshi of Shioda's teacher Morihei Ueshiba and out of respect no demonstration was done from the Yoshikan side. So Okamoto sensei had not the chance to witness the ability of Gozo Shioda. He said that he saw a demonstration of Gozo Shioda after he relocated to Tokyo and was literally astound of the high level of "Aiki" and since then wondering from who he got it.

I agree seeing that you cannot get much by just watching old films. And this conversation was done in the 1989, long before internet and youtube. Martial arts video was very rare, and even if they were sold sometimes, they were ridiculously expensive some even sold at the equivalent of USD 200 or even more.

At that time when images of Ueshiba was shown on TV, it was usually that of Ueshiba in his 80`s and tossing around young people even without touching them. I do not think that Okamoto sensei (or other Daito-ryu practitioner AND Aikido practitioner) had many chances to see other images of Ueshiba in those days, aside the Aikikai students maybe.

And I have other hypothesis, that maybe when Okamoto sensei was referring to "Aiki" he probably meant "Aiki" a la Kodokai style. He detailed me about how to discern whether a person really applied "Aiki" to the opponent or whether it was different. If an opponent has been applied "Aiki" in most cases (I remember him saying 70% or something like that) that his knee begins to trembling as he looses instantly power in the knee and that your heel begins to rise so that you are standing on your too.

But I became to think that the above description is probably only a partial side of "Aiki" and that these are unique to Kodokai, but probably that this is not the whole picture.

Anyway I think it is interesting is that the Yoshinkan black belt seminar, in which Shioda displays very Kodokai-esque techniques began in 1978 (this is officially stated in Yoshinkan history).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImu9KPi38k

Don't you think the timing is very interesting? Black belt seminar were very un-Shioda (and un-Yoshinkan) like who always emphasized the basic. I do not think that Shioda got it from Horikawa (or anyone else) other than Ueshiba, but as one of his student (Ogawa) went over to Kodokai stating he found the true thing, maybe the black belt seminar began as a kind of "Oh, but I can do that too" demonstration....
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:53 PM   #49
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
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Re: Horikawa teaching Shioda?

Tomoo - thanks for the added details - and your hypotheses are very plausible.

I did receive some communication from a senior Roppokai practitioner regarding the technique that Shioda reportedly received from Horikawa:
Quote:
The technique is an Aiki Otoshi where you lift you grabbed arm a little up before dropping the guy straight down. According to Okamoto, Kodo told Shioda "I'm going to throw you down now, ready?", right before dropping him. When Shioda was dropped he responded "Ah got it!".
Best
Ellis

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