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Old 10-30-2002, 12:31 AM   #26
DrGazebo
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I meant to say in last paragraph,

when I am in the dojo

or was it a Freudian slip?
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Old 10-30-2002, 08:23 AM   #27
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Belonging to a Ki aikido dojo (I know, I've already heard most of the traditionalists views)this is a very common question we get with never a single answer that satisfys.

I've never considered Ki to be mystical in any way, just managing for once to get your mind and body focussed on a single movement, stance or whatever without all the usual static that occurs.

Others in the dojo prefer a more spiritual view, but one thing we do seem to agree on is that if you ever meet it or (hopefully) manage to "tap" (poor word choice I know) into it, you can definitely recognise it in a technique.

I'd suggest just going with what helps with your own perception of it, whether mystical, physical etc. and let your own answer to your question grow over time and training. You'd be surprised at how often it'll change.
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Old 10-30-2002, 11:12 AM   #28
kironin
 
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Re: Ki, A troublesome concept

Quote:
David Chandross (DrGazebo) wrote:
But when I am in the dojo, everything changes. All of that stuff I just said becomes irrelevant, and I can feel something when the movements are right.

Its a paradox, what can I say?
There is no paradox if your recognize the differences between physics and metaphysics. IF you recognize in medical therapy the constant tension between the subjective and objective, between the ancedotal and the statistically reproduceable.

It's interesting to me that Lynn Seiser's first response in this whole discussion was so spot on from a Ki Society perspective. To me that speaks volumes about the quality of his training. :-)
Quote:
Ki is what happens when you align the body and the mind.
We talk about Ki a lot and in general you could always replace this two letter word with the the long phrase,

"the positive feeling of calmness that you experience when you coordinate your mind and body as one".

It's clearly a subjective experience in training that is going to differ from student to student. It clearly takes someone who has got it to teach it to someone who wants to learn it, because the student has got to feel it to know what to look for. There are exercises but the external form of the exercises is clearly not enough just as the external form of technique is not enough.

Ki is not a troublesome concept anymore than "Aiki", "Kokyu", etc.

The answers are in daily practice. In training you may find cultivating Ki leads to some ancedotal objective experience.

However, don't be dissappointed if you can't convince a physicist that you have found some new form of energy that will rock the foundations of Quantum Chromodynamics or that the millions spent in search of the Higgs particle is a waste of money.

Just be happy with small things such as if you can allow uke to go splat with minimal effort, reduce the soreness in a fellow students muscle, or respond in a calm manner to your boss yelling at you to effect a postive resolution.

That's really what Ki is about.

Craig
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Old 10-31-2002, 08:55 AM   #29
SeiserL
 
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Re: Re: Ki, A troublesome concept

Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
It's interesting to me that Lynn Seiser's first response in this whole discussion was so spot on from a Ki Society perspective. To me that speaks volumes about the quality of his training. :-)Craig
Thanks, that is good to hear. Especially because I train in an Aikikai style and we seldom talk about Ki. Deepest appreciation for your feedback.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:47 AM   #30
mike lee
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everything is relative

Quote:
There is no paradox if your recognize the differences between physics and metaphysics.
There would be no paradox if the similarities were recognized.
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:52 AM   #31
mike lee
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is it happening?

Quote:
Ki is what happens when you align the body and the mind.
Ki is always present in a living being, regardless of whether "you align the body and the mind," whatever that means.
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Old 10-31-2002, 10:42 AM   #32
Roy Dean
 
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"Ki is always present in a living being, regardless of whether "you align the body and the mind," whatever that means."

True, but if you've ever experienced total body and mind alignment, you would KNOW what that means.

Kind regards,

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydean.tv
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Old 10-31-2002, 09:22 PM   #33
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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It is worth remembering that the word energy described an intuitive notion we come by naturally long before any scientist used it to describe something he/she (well, it was probably he) was busy quantifying. While I have a very deep respect for the scientific approach, there is no reason it should force us to completely abandon of our intuitive and immediate understanding of the world.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 11-01-2002, 12:24 AM   #34
DanD
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How about - KI as your intention. Your mind/mental phase, expressed through physical motion (Aikido arts in this case).

One way of looking at it is "Mind moves body"

is the key
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Old 11-02-2002, 01:50 AM   #35
mike lee
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Do symbol from order comes harmony

Quote:
How about - KI as your intention. Your mind/mental phase, expressed through physical motion (Aikido arts in this case).
I think what you're talking about is consciousness.

In tai chi chuan, it is said that:

Spirit moves the mind;

Mind moves the chi;

Chi moves the body.

Last edited by mike lee : 11-02-2002 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 11-02-2002, 01:55 AM   #36
mike lee
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what shall I do?

Quote:
True, but if you've ever experienced total body and mind alignment, you would KNOW what that means.
Sorry, but I haven't had such an experience. I must still be at too low a level in my training.
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Old 11-03-2002, 06:25 PM   #37
DrGazebo
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The Spirit of Aikido by Ueshiba

Its amazing how many answers there are to the questions we have been discussing in his book. Its an amazing book which gets a little deeper each time you read it, I read it first about 25 years ago and it still seems like new. I think most of our questions, especially beginner Qs, are answered in this one little paperback.
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Old 11-04-2002, 12:16 PM   #38
Roy Dean
 
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"Sorry, but I haven't had such an experience. I must still be at too low a level in my training."

It's so refreshing to see such honesty and humility from our fellow Aikidoka, especially when they're an expert! Truly a model for others to follow...

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydean.tv
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Old 11-05-2002, 02:07 AM   #39
mike lee
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Do symbol way of the expert

Quote:
Truly a model for others to follow.
Sorry. The mold was broken after they made me.

Last edited by mike lee : 11-05-2002 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 11-05-2002, 12:33 PM   #40
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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That mold wasn't broken because when people looked at you they turned to stone, eh?

Just kidding.....

Allignment of body and mind .... ummm?

Yeah, that is the solution, but how to get there?

How to use the correct state of mind to prompt the body to use the living force we describe as ki, a force beyond the normal capacity of our living being which uses the same force in our everyday lives ... now there is a puzzle.

Reminds me of trying to solve a problem no one was able to find or fix when I was working on boats and motors. I would sometimes spend up to an hour coaxing the customer to reveal more and more about the problem they were having, until the facts met the testing criteria to find the solution.

This, in learning to use Ki, would translate into having long, long discusssions with each person to see what mental prompts work best at the allignment of body and mind to find the answer to the puzzle of using Ki. Maybe that is why there are so many solutions to the usage of Ki, how to learn to connect body and mind, or why I call it the power of self hypnosis.

You can't tell me you don't use some type of mental prompt to use Ki in your practice of Aikido? Whether it is the picture of extension, rooting, clouds, or blanking out conscious thought, these are all methods to connect body and mind without superfluous thought that interferes with the connection of Ki to the body.

Some people find strength in anger, but they also find their skills are diminished with clouded thoughts leaving their defense/offensive techniques open to counters, so they learn to put away anger and let the clear unfettered mind be the path of their training.

Others seek to immitate a teacher, or fellow student who displays uncanny strength and ability at practice, failing to find their own connection to Ki power.

Then others proclaim they have the key to Ki, and in fact, it is their own experience to finding the link to Ki which may or may not apply to others, many times others are unable to fathom how they got there from here?

Indeed, we have broken the mold after we made Mike Lee, maybe that is why I enjoy his posts and I laugh at some of his delightfull posts. Simplicity, reality, and he speaks his mind, as should we all in the process of learning from experience and learning from each other.

I don't profess to being a teacher, nor do I have all the answers, but I have met many people from all walks of life, and walked many miles in other peoples moccasins, so maybe I emphathise too much?

But the mystery of using the energy of life, sometimes called ki or chi, is a difficult road that sometimes takes many years of practice in both physical and spiritual realms. Connection of body and mind ... and spirit, yeah ... body and mind cannot overcome if the spirit is unwilling to persevere.

Persevere ... and you will find the key to finding your KI.

Damn it!

Broke another mold.
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