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Old 10-25-2013, 04:43 PM   #26
Budd
 
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Pfft, Mifune is clearly using Jin, whether it's full banana 6h prolly not, but who cares?
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:47 PM   #27
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Hah, I think some cherry picking may be happening. I suspect more facts may revealed about this in due course
Not so much cherry picking, as a hunch, based on wild conjecture, drawn from the precious little publicly available historic info, coupled with firsthand exposure to aiki of that same provenance.

Shioda's work looks, to my eyes, like a hybrid of Kodokai aiki and technique and Ueshiba's interpretive ballet. With a healthy injection of Gozo quirkiness and cock-of-the-walk showmanship.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:46 PM   #28
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Not so much cherry picking, as a hunch, based on wild conjecture, drawn from the precious little publicly available historic info, coupled with firsthand exposure to aiki of that same provenance.

Shioda's work looks, to my eyes, like a hybrid of Kodokai aiki and technique and Ueshiba's interpretive ballet. With a healthy injection of Gozo quirkiness and cock-of-the-walk showmanship.
*snort* I could just as easily say that Shioda looks like a pre-war mostly Daito-ryu Ueshiba with his own sense of gamesmanship that might have thrown a nod here and there to the style "ancestor/cousins" he let use his dojo :P
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:42 PM   #29
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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*snort* I could just as easily say that Shioda looks like a pre-war mostly Daito-ryu Ueshiba with his own sense of gamesmanship that might have thrown a nod here and there to the style "ancestor/cousins" he let use his dojo :P
I see your *snort* and raise you one *hmph*. Yeah, sure that's possible too. But also conjecture. I could retort that the pre-war guys who left Ueshiba to found their own schools, of whom Shioda was one, reputedly did so because they weren't "getting the goods" to the degree they knew Ueshiba had. I doubt very much that Shioda had the "peng" with which to drive aiki-sage (which he really seemed to like. A lot.) and aiki-age. If he'd had it, so would Tohei and the rest, and it would have informed their styles of aikido when they founded their schools.

Without the aiki, Shioda would not have had the knowledge nor the body wisdom to manipulate his scapulas with his famous "Attack my chest" aiki-sage move. Nor would he have had the sophistication of movement in his meimon and tandan in aiki-age. Those actions are parts of a very specific Daito-ryu-with-aiki training and would not have been gained casually through occasional "exchange" with those "ancestor/cousins" visiting his dojo. He had to have been trained by someone. I doubt very seriously that it was Ueshiba. The circumstantial evidence of Kodokai "trademark" techniques points the finger naturally toward Horikawa or one of his senior students, over a period of time and not casually.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:00 PM   #30
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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I see your *snort* and raise you one *hmph*. Yeah, sure that's possible too. But also conjecture. I could retort that the pre-war guys who left Ueshiba to found their own schools, of whom Shioda was one, reputedly did so because they weren't "getting the goods" to the degree they knew Ueshiba had. I doubt very much that Shioda had the "peng" with which to drive aiki-sage (which he really seemed to like. A lot.) and aiki-age. If he'd had it, so would Tohei and the rest, and it would have informed their styles of aikido when they founded their schools.

Without the aiki, Shioda would not have had the knowledge nor the body wisdom to manipulate his scapulas with his famous "Attack my chest" aiki-sage move. Nor would he have had the sophistication of movement in his meimon and tandan in aiki-age. Those actions are parts of a very specific Daito-ryu-with-aiki training and would not have been gained casually through occasional "exchange" with those "ancestor/cousins" visiting his dojo. He had to have been trained by someone. I doubt very seriously that it was Ueshiba. The circumstantial evidence of Kodokai "trademark" techniques points the finger naturally toward Horikawa or one of his senior students, over a period of time and not casually.
Cady, I call your *hmph* with a *bah* - you can't dismiss my counter-conjecture to your conjecture by calling it . .. conjecture. You'd then have to support your statement that pre-war students left Ueshiba to found their own school cuz they weren't getting the goods from Ueshiba . . with more than conjecture.

The fact is there are at least three discrete examples of pre-war students that left Ueshiba to found their own schools who were each able to manifest peng jin (and apply it as aiki) within their respective offshoots (Inoue, Tomiki and Shioda). Which sort of runs counter to your doubt that Ueshiba didn't pass along some very specific Daito aiki training. And if your biggest argument was that Shioda had to have the body technology to make the Kodokai "techniques" work, I could see as likely an instance where he watched, thought they moved a bit stiffly and thought "Hey, I know the body secrets here, I can do this better than THOSE guys!".

Ain't this speculative stuff fun?!
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:25 PM   #31
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Cady, I call your *hmph* with a *bah* - you can't dismiss my counter-conjecture to your conjecture by calling it . .. conjecture. You'd then have to support your statement that pre-war students left Ueshiba to found their own school cuz they weren't getting the goods from Ueshiba . . with more than conjecture.

The fact is there are at least three discrete examples of pre-war students that left Ueshiba to found their own schools who were each able to manifest peng jin (and apply it as aiki) within their respective offshoots (Inoue, Tomiki and Shioda). Which sort of runs counter to your doubt that Ueshiba didn't pass along some very specific Daito aiki training. And if your biggest argument was that Shioda had to have the body technology to make the Kodokai "techniques" work, I could see as likely an instance where he watched, thought they moved a bit stiffly and thought "Hey, I know the body secrets here, I can do this better than THOSE guys!".

Ain't this speculative stuff fun?!
I was going to call your *bah* with a *pfffft,* but you raised an excellent point about Inouye and Tomiki. They did have some stuff. Albeit Inouye, being a nephew, may have gotten more hands-on time with the Old Man and "stolen" a bit more. Shioda's aiki was not top-drawer, but it was a decent workman's aiki. He may have taken it along a bit further with outside tutoring. But your conjecture about him watching Kodokai guys and thinking he could do it better... well, he was pretty stiff himself. The Kodokai guys in Japan are stiff-looking in their highly ritualized approach to DR... so we could just as easily conjecture that (wait for it...) Shioda was imitating their movements because that's how they taught him.

Yeah, conjecture is fun, though ultimately unsatisfying. I'd really love to see the release of some genuine, bona fide historic data that would solidify some of the backgrounds of these disciples of Ueshiba.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:45 AM   #32
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

Oh, puke I forgot how disgusting his posts were. Please, no more.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:49 AM   #33
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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The fact is there are at least three discrete examples of pre-war students that left Ueshiba to found their own schools who were each able to manifest peng jin (and apply it as aiki) within their respective offshoots (Inoue, Tomiki and Shioda).
So peng jin is not aiki, but can be applied as aiki? Please explain in detail. And if you can use Japanese terms, because I don't practice taiji.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:37 AM   #34
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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So peng jin is not aiki, but can be applied as aiki? Please explain in detail. And if you can use Japanese terms, because I don't practice taiji.
Short answer: "Peng jin" or peng energy is the core manifestation of internal power (IP). Aiki is manipulation of peng within the body to produce any number of interesting outward results.

I have never heard the Japanese term for "peng jin" although it is inherent in Daito-ryu aiki. IME, this may be due to the lack of a teaching vocabulary in the internal Japanese martial arts. True to old Asian tradition, aiki has been taught through hands-on transmission with very little verbal description.

Go back to the "6 Directions" thread and read the descriptions of what is being done to the body in that process: the use of intent to work the body in 6 (actual 360-degree) directions by simultaneously pushing and pulling the body outward and inward in all those directions. You are pulling your frame and body tissues upward and downward, forward and backward, left and right, diagonally from right shoulder to left foot, left shoulder to right foot, etc. At the same time, you are drawing in your tandan and the soft areas of your chest, and stretching up-and-down your meimon.

This establishes a powerful structure and creates a "feeling" of being spherical, of being at the center of a sphere of force. That "spherical feel" of force is a manifestation of what the Chinese internal martial arts call "peng."

You can use peng jin to repulse an incoming attack back outward. If you make small adjustments in the amount of drawing in the tandan and stretching of meimon, you can direct that force upward or downward, and to some degree in other directions, as though rolling that sphere. That part is the aiki -- the manipulation within yourself... the harmonizing of In and Yo (opposing/complementary forces) that allows you to play with peng (IP). In Japanese internal martial arts, aiki-age and aiki-sage represent aspects of aiki that utilize, respectively, the upward and downward direction of "peng."

This probably should be in the "6 Directions" thread or elsewhere, so I apologize for the thread hijack.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #35
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Well, I agree with Cady in that jin does not appear to be as universally nor as explicitly labeled in Japanese arts in the same manner. Where I would perhaps quibble with Cady would be in the details in which jin is being expressed (in this sense) as aiki as I think is steps too far into the application, cause and effect without perhaps enough consideration of all the pieces working together to allow for said cause and effect.

I won't speak to Daito-ryu as I agree there's assumptions of jin expression in the techniques (ie that's why they would "work"). In aikido, the same rule applies, but as has been written before, it is somewhat bundled with a number of other expressions of ki into the umbrella of kokyu rokyu - which again presumes jin as the baseline component to make the other things "work". But because it's even less explicitly called out and taught - unless you steal the transmission from someone that has it via feeling, it's a very perishable skill.

An aside as well - though peng jin is the baseline jin that enables the other jins, there is only one jin. In aiki speak, however you classify expressions of ki (in Chinese terms jin is the expression of qi), you can't have aiki, kokyu, etc, without some degree of jin as the base.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:27 AM   #36
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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I have never heard the Japanese term for "peng jin" although it is inherent in Daito-ryu aiki.
"Houkei" 掤勁

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Chris

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Old 10-26-2013, 11:34 AM   #37
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Well, I agree with Cady in that jin does not appear to be as universally nor as explicitly labeled in Japanese arts in the same manner. Where I would perhaps quibble with Cady would be in the details in which jin is being expressed (in this sense) as aiki as I think is steps too far into the application, cause and effect without perhaps enough consideration of all the pieces working together to allow for said cause and effect.
Budd, I see jin more as the raw material to be exploited by aiki. "Peng" is the core, "main" jin. In "making aiki," there are things that you are doing which are separate, or an addition, to the processes being done to make houkei/peng (thanks Chris! ). There are myriad variations and manipulations to keep shifting the balance of In and Yo. For example, different degrees of engagement in the meimon and tandan, and the use of the kwas (gotta find the Japanese term for these) to create the power of opposing forces via the ground, for winding force. Aiki itself includes sensitivity toward what your own body is doing, and the ability to feel the opponent's center to control his body in any chosen direction and a variety of chosen effects. It is the exploitation and manipulation of the power you generate.

But starting at Square One, I believe that describing houkei (peng) and aiki-age are the simplest way to define IP and Aiki to someone with no prior physical exposure.

P.S. How about the term for "kwa," Chris...?

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-26-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:41 AM   #38
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Oh, puke I forgot how disgusting his posts were. Please, no more.
Hmm...I'm pretty sure that this kind of statement is not the best way to go about meeting someone that you've expressed an interest in meeting.

Just sayin...

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #39
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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P.S. How about the term for "kwa," Chris...?
"Mata" or "Ko" 胯

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2013, 12:11 PM   #40
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"Mata" or "Ko" 胯

Best,

Chris
Thank you! I'm assembling a terminology file, so no more fumbling for the right Japanese word.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:40 PM   #41
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Budd, I see jin more as the raw material to be exploited by aiki. "Peng" is the core, "main" jin. In "making aiki," there are things that you are doing which are separate, or an addition, to the processes being done to make houkei/peng (thanks Chris! ). There are myriad variations and manipulations to keep shifting the balance of In and Yo. For example, different degrees of engagement in the meimon and tandan, and the use of the kwas (gotta find the Japanese term for these) to create the power of opposing forces via the ground, for winding force. Aiki itself includes sensitivity toward what your own body is doing, and the ability to feel the opponent's center to control his body in any chosen direction and a variety of chosen effects. It is the exploitation and manipulation of the power you generate.

But starting at Square One, I believe that describing houkei (peng) and aiki-age are the simplest way to define IP and Aiki to someone with no prior physical exposure.

P.S. How about the term for "kwa," Chris...?
Well, Cady, I'd say that what you're again describing are the application and skill methods in how to apply jin to as you say, "make aiki". The skill and conditioning is the work you do to train it and then depending on the types of pressure testing you do will somewhat define what's considered the "correct" method for applying jin as "aiki". The latter part is especially where I think many "takes" on internal strength will diverge.

To take your example of sensitivity or listening, the Chinese term "ting jin" equates to listening to your opponent's energy/power. It's an application of jin and somewhat reinforces that there are many jins but one jin. Without the table stakes of solid peng, I typically rule out anyone's credibility to speak or demonstrate much else.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:47 PM   #42
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

Budd sez: Without the table stakes of solid peng, I typically rule out anyone's credibility to speak or demonstrate much else.

Cutting through all the descriptive verbiage in our posts above, I think we agree that "Houkei/Peng" is the principle and core power from which other manifestations of force and of aiki are generated.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:56 PM   #43
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

I just stick with Jin for the most part, as by itself it implies Peng with the others usually denoting an application or attribute. Chris, since you're being so helpful - is Jin used in Japanese at all to indicate "correct strength" or anything similar?
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:36 PM   #44
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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I just stick with Jin for the most part, as by itself it implies Peng with the others usually denoting an application or attribute. Chris, since you're being so helpful - is Jin used in Japanese at all to indicate "correct strength" or anything similar?
I never really heard it used in Japanese arts (although I know that it is at times) - the most common usage is for Japanese people practicing Chinese arts.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2013, 03:50 PM   #45
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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I never really heard it used in Japanese arts (although I know that it is at times) - the most common usage is for Japanese people practicing Chinese arts.

Best,

Chris
Gotcha (and thanks!), I think Ueshiba was probably closest when talking about kokyu rokkyo, but even that has a connotation of "breath" that a I think is a degree or two more advanced than the baseline strength of what Jin is supposed to represent.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:13 PM   #46
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

not sure which of the six directions will this thread go to but FWIW

I think the Iwama / Saito group should not be ignored if you want to speculate on what Ueshiba was doing with this technology.

I believe Kokyu Rokyu is clearly Ueshibas appropriation of the material, Kokyu Ho being the vehicle to transmit one aspect of the skill ( he could have stuck with aiki age or derivative). If O Sensei was trying to build something different from Daito Ryu, it looks like it was not in the realm of technique; maybe it was in the methods he was adding in.

If you accept that Shioda showed applications based on internal strength, Saito was too, as was Shirata, and now we know there's second generation teachers who are also demonstrating internal strength based I think its pretty clear that O Sensei was developing his ideas and training regime and he was using everything he could learn about, and that his students were for the most left to puzzle it out.

"Go find out yourself" - there. It is very difficult to have a conversation about internal training. Skepticism is warranted. Success is improbable. Beware the rabbit hole.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:33 AM   #47
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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The fact is there are at least three discrete examples of pre-war students that left Ueshiba to found their own schools who were each able to manifest peng jin (and apply it as aiki) within their respective offshoots (Inoue, Tomiki and Shioda).
Wait, what? Tomiki too?

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Old 10-27-2013, 02:28 PM   #48
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Demetrio, yep
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Old 10-27-2013, 03:49 PM   #49
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

Budd, maybe you'll find this thread interesting.

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Old 10-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #50
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Re: It's not You, It's Me

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Budd, maybe you'll find this thread interesting.
I remember the thread and tend to side with the view that Tomoki understood it was a different kind of body technology and was trying to explain it according to western educational methods. I also think the people trying to denounce IP as a realm of study need to get hands on people with noted skill. The people trying to proclaim IP as the end-all to martial arts need to go to a sports combatives class and try out their stuff.
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