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Old 10-25-2013, 04:26 PM   #26
lipyeow
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
*snipped*

Would you just take my word that it works?
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)

Chris, very nice story.... again ... trying to convince me by anecdotes/parables .... make "aiki" more like a religion ...

what happen to those folks who say that come touch my sensei and you will know/recognize "aiki" ? What does "aiki" feel like ?

Lipyeow

ps. i'm just trying to stir up discussion ... i'm not really an asshole.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:37 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)

Chris, very nice story.... again ... trying to convince me by anecdotes/parables .... make "aiki" more like a religion ...

what happen to those folks who say that come touch my sensei and you will know/recognize "aiki" ? What does "aiki" feel like ?

Lipyeow

ps. i'm just trying to stir up discussion ... i'm not really an asshole.
My point was - Minoru Mochizuki wouldn't have accepted the two initial premises:

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.
He would have just smacked them.

"My father was not a pacifist."
- Kisshomaru Ueshiba


Here's what Morihei said to Rinjiro Shirata after Shirata smacked down a challenger in the dojo:

Quote:
“Idiot! Can’t you go a little easier?”

Morihei, who happened to be present, thundered at Rinjiro. But this was just for the visitor, who had suffered harsh damage. After sending him away hobbling with a stick, Morihei said, “Well done. That was good.”
Best,

Chris

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Old 10-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #28
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-)
Well sure!!! Grab my hand....no not like that......thats too hard......do you call that a grab......you are supposed to move here.....noooooo like this......send your ki past Pluto ....no northward....try these magic beans.....now do you believe me?!??!!

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:08 PM   #29
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
you mean "Aiki" is a religion ? Believe and you will be saved ? :-).
Mantra #1: Aikido is the religion that is not a religion; it perfects and completes all religions.

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:26 PM   #30
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Mantra #2. Aikido is the art of peace and harmony.......unless..... you aren't in our group......grab too hard.....attack too hard.....are practicing martially.....do that IP stuffs with those Harden, Akuzawa or Chin fellows....pant...pant....don't follow my hand....I am running out of breath...

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #31
lipyeow
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

I think Chris made a good point.

If Aikido is a martial art, then we have to go back to that primal way of demonstration -- can it win a fight -- brute force or not. As opposed to this "looking for mysterious aiki" chasing after the wind ...

But if we claim that "Aiki" is something greater, something approaching philosophy which seems to be what i think some modern aikidoka are claiming, then perhaps that primal way of demonstration is not the best way to showcase the art....

Lipyeow
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:40 PM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
But if we claim that "Aiki" is something greater, something approaching philosophy ...
Do you think philosophy is greater than beating people?

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Old 10-25-2013, 06:48 PM   #33
phitruong
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Do you think philosophy is greater than beating people?
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:59 PM   #34
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Lipyeow... "Aiki" is the Unifying the Mental with the Physical inside yourself. Then, it becomes Unifying Yourself with the Opponent.

Ueshiba's Aiki was that. However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.

Without the internal methology that provided stable, unified power and connectivity, and peng, the new aikido had to devise a new strategy to make the existing waza work. Instead of being able to stick into, draw in and "smother" to control the opponent (old Daito-ryu strategy), aikido training became mainly about using a combination of externally driven evasive movements and mental manipulation of the opponent to lead him into overreaching his limits (his center or one-point) when attacking (no 13 points to hold his alignment and structure), so that he loses his own center and is thus easier to control and manipulate.

Joint locks and pins are also used, but without aiki to power it (which would control the opponent's entire frame, structure and center. Locks and pins using aiki make it possible to freeze the opponent's frame and movement without needing to use pain.), the user must rely on timing, leverage and pain compliance.

This is NOT necessarily a bad thing. In my observation, aikido, at its higher levels, can work very well against an unsuspecting opponent who is not "internally" trained. With the right training, someone absolutely can become a master at leading the mind of an attacker, and thus his body, and hone timing to an exquisite level. Even though the powering methods are external, mastering the mental aspects goes a long way to making aikido waza work, IMO. Also, there are some vestiges of Teh Internalz that manifest themselves in "jin tricks" (e.g. the arm as a hose full of water... etc.) and some of the kokyu training that can lend some aspect of power and structure to aikido. But having the full monty of aiki and IP would add so much more...

The problem is that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, so students can put too much faith in intermediate-level experience. What works in careful training in the dojo might not be street-ready yet. And that's one reason not to be overly compliant in the dojo. Failure is an important learning tool. The sensitivity it takes to be able to lead minds into a hole, takes years to master. Especially minds of attackers who are not aikidoka, or who are psychotic, and want to take your head off.

Okay, that's it for me, for injecting additional controversy to this Controversial Thread, which Lipyeow, started by whacking the hornets' nest with a stout stick.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-25-2013 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:03 PM   #35
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap.
Oh, gawd. Freshman year, I signed up for a Philosophy 101 course, and the prof assigned a stack of books 6 feet high. I couldn't afford them all and dropped the course after the first class. The prof was an arrogant S.O.B. anyway, so some of the other students who stuck with the course probably did have fantasies about beating the guy.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:21 PM   #36
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?
Beating philosophers should be considered 'statutory self defense'.

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:45 PM   #37
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Beating philosophers should be considered 'statutory self defense'.
I classify them in the same category as street mimes.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:47 PM   #38
akiy
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

As outlined in this announcement, please be sure to start a new thread if you wish to discuss aikido internal training in the Internal Training in Aikido forum.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:51 PM   #39
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:53 PM   #40
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'
You're being too kind.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:00 PM   #41
Janet Rosen
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Street mimes should be hung upside down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign that says 'Learn The Words'
This should also apply to Aikido Uke-Mimes who have to precede their attacks with huge telegraphed gestures indicating what they are about to do, like they are playing Charades - I always want to respond to this by shouting out "three syllables! must be katetori!"

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:26 AM   #42
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
Mantra #2. Aikido is the art of peace and harmony.......unless..... you aren't in our group......grab too hard.....attack too hard.....are practicing martially.....do that IP stuffs with those Harden, Akuzawa or Chin fellows....pant...pant....don't follow my hand....I am running out of breath...
If we adopt Phi's grammar and spelling we are all lost!

Please, I beg you. It's the only thing I hate more than "vetted."

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:29 AM   #43
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Lipyeow... "Aiki" is the Unifying the Mental with the Physical inside yourself. Then, it becomes Unifying Yourself with the Opponent.

Ueshiba's Aiki was that. However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.

Without the internal methology that provided stable, unified power and connectivity, and peng, the new aikido had to devise a new strategy to make the existing waza work. Instead of being able to stick into, draw in and "smother" to control the opponent (old Daito-ryu strategy), aikido training became mainly about using a combination of externally driven evasive movements and mental manipulation of the opponent to lead him into overreaching his limits (his center or one-point) when attacking (no 13 points to hold his alignment and structure), so that he loses his own center and is thus easier to control and manipulate.

Joint locks and pins are also used, but without aiki to power it (which would control the opponent's entire frame, structure and center. Locks and pins using aiki make it possible to freeze the opponent's frame and movement without needing to use pain.), the user must rely on timing, leverage and pain compliance.

This is NOT necessarily a bad thing. In my observation, aikido, at its higher levels, can work very well against an unsuspecting opponent who is not "internally" trained. With the right training, someone absolutely can become a master at leading the mind of an attacker, and thus his body, and hone timing to an exquisite level. Even though the powering methods are external, mastering the mental aspects goes a long way to making aikido waza work, IMO. Also, there are some vestiges of Teh Internalz that manifest themselves in "jin tricks" (e.g. the arm as a hose full of water... etc.) and some of the kokyu training that can lend some aspect of power and structure to aikido. But having the full monty of aiki and IP would add so much more...

The problem is that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, so students can put too much faith in intermediate-level experience. What works in careful training in the dojo might not be street-ready yet. And that's one reason not to be overly compliant in the dojo. Failure is an important learning tool. The sensitivity it takes to be able to lead minds into a hole, takes years to master. Especially minds of attackers who are not aikidoka, or who are psychotic, and want to take your head off.

Okay, that's it for me, for injecting additional controversy to this Controversial Thread, which Lipyeow, started by whacking the hornets' nest with a stout stick.
Where does Saito's view of Ueshiba's aikido fit into all of this? I mean, he was likely his closest student, even if everybody just figures he was a dumb country boy.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:19 AM   #44
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Where does Saito's view of Ueshiba's aikido fit into all of this? I mean, he was likely his closest student, even if everybody just figures he was a dumb country boy.
"Closest" is really a red herring - I could argue that for a number of people from various points of view (and those people have indeed made those arguments). Anyway, my guess would be that he would have been in favor of the "outside-in" approach of building Aiki through repeated kata training - that approach favored his personality and his training situation. Of course, Ueshiba was known to teach different people in different ways.

My personal experience with him, and with some looking back in hindsight, would be that he had a lot of stuff, but probably lacked a way to explain the "universal field theory" behind what was going on, and that much of what he was doing and showing was influenced and restricted by his overwhelming desire to preserve the precise external form of his training as faithfully as possible (not a bad thing, but it has its drawbacks).

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-26-2013, 03:06 AM   #45
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
"Closest" is really a red herring - I could argue that for a number of people from various points of view (and those people have indeed made those arguments). Anyway, my guess would be that he would have been in favor of the "outside-in" approach of building Aiki through repeated kata training - that approach favored his personality and his training situation. Of course, Ueshiba was known to teach different people in different ways.

My personal experience with him, and with some looking back in hindsight, would be that he had a lot of stuff, but probably lacked a way to explain the "universal field theory" behind what was going on, and that much of what he was doing and showing was influenced and restricted by his overwhelming desire to preserve the precise external form of his training as faithfully as possible (not a bad thing, but it has its drawbacks).

Best,

Chris
My teacher who spent seven years in Iwama as an uchi and soto deshi always said he felt kind of bad for Saito because he strove to maintain someone else's practice. I understood that and yet I can't say I agree at this point in time. I would almost thank him for it.

But your point is well taken.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:28 AM   #46
Walter Martindale
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what if the people you beat are philosophers, would it make beating greater?

sorry Demetrio. after a few philosophy courses in college, i wanted to beat them so badly! They drove me crazy, with the "i think therefore i am" or the "if i slap myself in the forest, would i make a sound" crap.
Shouldn't it be "I think I think, therefore I think I am?" Who really knows if there's anything there - I see an outline of a person at the front of the classroom but is it really a philosophy professor, my imagination, or just some idiot who babbles on about nothing...
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:14 PM   #47
Michael Hackett
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

The only way to determine that Walter is to see if he asks you if you want fries with your order.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:41 PM   #48
aikidark
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
I think Chris made a good point.

If Aikido is a martial art, then we have to go back to that primal way of demonstration -- can it win a fight -- brute force or not. As opposed to this "looking for mysterious aiki" chasing after the wind ...

Lipyeow
I am interested in this mysterious aiki. Do you know any good teachers of this style? Maybe point to some of their websites or videos? Maybe recomend where one can train with them?

Last edited by aikidark : 10-26-2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:44 PM   #49
aikidark
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
my answer: yup! it's all BS! we like wearing funny skirt and some of us might even shave our legs. what else you got?
I don't wear the skirt yet, and I only shave one leg.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:15 PM   #50
lipyeow
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
A fair question. I'm only about 5'8" but I'm fairly solidly constructed so have gotten the "brute force assertion" more than once. (And size does matter, no matter what they say, uhm)

But a fairly simple thing is to have a simple hands on shoulder connection, remove their connection to the ground in the subtlest way your skill allows, such that they stagger and have to take a step. You can say, "That thar is Aiki!". The same thing gets applied in locks, throws and strikes, yippee. (For the judo purists it's the subtler setup to kuzushi than more observable timing and pressure set ups)
Let's get back to the original question. I am actually only half-joking. On a more serious note, what are good "demonstrations" for someone who shows up at your dojo ?

What Budd has suggested reminds me of the first time my Sifu, Sam Chin, placed his hands on me. It didn't feel heavy, but the ground beneath my feet seem to be wobbling and everything i tried seems to be useless.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
However, his son Kisshomaru eliminated the internal elements from the modernized approach to aikido that became the Aikikai method... which was the mainstream, mass-introduced aikido sent out around the world by the young missionary teachers who were rapidly trained and promoted in that new version.
The other thing that i think we need to be realistic about is that we live in an age where martial art as a pure fighting art is fast losing relevance -- how many of us have to actually be in a real fight for survival on a daily basis ? So i think it is not a bad idea that martial arts evolve to maintain some semblance of relevance. What Kisshomaru did was one possible way of evolving the art -- perhaps not to the liking of some of us. What other ways of evolution would we like to see ?

Lipyeow
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