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Old 10-23-2013, 08:24 PM   #201
Gary David
 
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

IMO as he goes into IP/IS training I predict he (as many others following this path) is going to move from paleolitic to neolitic. Regarding martial skill thas a great achievement but, by today's standards thats not impressive. Even if he gets to Takeda Sokaku skill level in, lets say 10 years from now, he will be substandard by 2013 parameters, as the others who go into IS/IP trainin will be.
I find this an interesting aspect of your over all comments.....what are todays standards as you see them, what do you see as the 2013 parameters and why would training in IP/IS make one sub-standard and on the outside to both? Standards and parameters being different things. Just asking.....Thanks
Gary
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:50 AM   #202
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 6 Directions

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
I find this an interesting aspect of your over all comments.....what are todays standards as you see them, what do you see as the 2013 parameters and why would training in IP/IS make one sub-standard and on the outside to both? Standards and parameters being different things. Just asking.....Thanks
Gary
Hi Gary

2013 was a typo, I mean 2023.

Anyway, what I tried to convey is people are trying to achieve what was considered top level in early 20th century, thats fine and a big advancement considering their current level. They are trying to rebuild the rotten Ford-T (a great car) they found in a barn with the original components, or at least with the most similar components they can find, and this is a great and commendable work. Thanks to people like Dan, Ark, Mike etc the tools, the materials and know-how are available and this is great

However, when they say they expect this restored Ford-T is going to perform like a 21st century Bentley... I feel the urge to slay cats Nansen style and hit people with the keisaku. Automotive technology has moved a bit in the last hundred years, isn't it?

I know this is futile, for the attachement and delusion are deeply entrenched, but has to be done.

Regards

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-24-2013 at 04:58 AM.

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Old 10-24-2013, 07:21 AM   #203
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

Who came up with the concept of a "21st-century Bentley" pr is comparing IP/aiki to a Model-T Ford? :P These things may have been discovered and developed long ago, but they are not "old fashioned" or outdated notions. As far as I know, the human body still has the same capabilities and limitations as it did a thousand years ago, and there is nothing truly in what we can do with it (excepting for the messing around with the human genome and DNA from other species).

As for "top level," I think we could compare internal skills to playing a musical instrument. People have been playing violins for hundreds of years. Is the violin and outdated, outmoded instrument, and playing it an old-fashioned skill? I mean, we have digital technologies now, man! Why mess with a piece of wood and gut strings that break so easily, when you can make great music electronically?How many levels of playing skill do you suppose there are? What are considered to be "top level" skills? How many virtuosos are there?

Why is there a bar set so high for IP/aiki, with the expectation that many people will develop virtuoso skills?
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:31 AM   #204
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Re: 6 Directions

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Who came up with the concept of a "21st-century Bentley" pr is comparing IP/aiki to a Model-T Ford? :P
I'm not comparing IP/Aiki to a Model-T. Aikido with IP/Aiki is a mint condition fully restored with original pieces Model-T. The real and functional Model.T

Aikido without IP/Aiki is a moving teapot in the verge of self destruction, an accident waiting to happen if the rubber meets the road. The aikidoka lacking IP/Aiki who are looking for restoring his Aikido are totally conscious and fully aware about this fact: for years they have been buying, driving and selling others a defective vehicle.

Quote:
As for "top level," I think we could compare internal skills to playing a musical instrument. People have been playing violins for hundreds of years. Is the violin and outdated, outmoded instrument, and playing it an old-fashioned skill? I mean, we have digital technologies now, man! Why mess with a piece of wood and gut strings that break so easily, when you can make great music electronically?How many levels of playing skill do you suppose there are? What are considered to be "top level" skills? How many virtuosos are there?
The problem is Aikido is not a violin, Koryu bujutsu is a violin. Aikido is a Rickenbacker 'frying pan'. So lets not compare apples and oranges, compare violins with violins or guitars with guitars or cars with cars.

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Why is there a bar set so high for IP/aiki, with the expectation that many people will develop virtuoso skills?
Maybe because IP/Aiki proponents are the ones who claim superhuman levels of awesomeness and atractiveness. The bar has been set by them.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:40 AM   #205
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Re: 6 Directions

I don't see any claims of super-human abilities from the IP/aiki folks. Only the insistence that it is a more effective, efficient way to power martial movement and technique. Coming from individuals who have had extensive experience in both "external" and "internal" martial methods, I'd say that it is a valid claim. More so than criticism coming from people who have experience in only one of those approaches (whether "external" or "internal").
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:27 AM   #206
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

I know this is futile, for the attachement and delusion are deeply entrenched, but has to be done.

Regards
Demetrio
Thanks for the response and I understand your concerns reflected in the line above. I would add that the tools being offered by the IP folks I have touched are helpful regardless the model they are being applied to. With a Model T you get a better Model T.......with 2013 model you can improve it also.....these are just tools. What skill set people choose to apply them in is their choice....but they will still need to adapt them and seek validation from someone with higher levels of understanding.
Gary
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:41 AM   #207
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 6 Directions

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I don't see any claims of super-human abilities from the IP/aiki folks. Only the insistence that it is a more effective, efficient way to power martial movement and technique. Coming from individuals who have had extensive experience in both "external" and "internal" martial methods, I'd say that it is a valid claim. More so than criticism coming from people who have experience in only one of those approaches (whether "external" or "internal").
So no the 'legendary skills' of Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa.... not high ranked judoka going airborne effortlessly, top swordsmen totally owned, no pro sumotori saying "oh crap, I'm done", no ninja style dissapearing and the like?

So what is left is a more effective, efficient way to power martial movement and technique. More effective and efficient than spending years dancing around with compliant partners who have the martial skill and technique of a lettuce? For sure, no doubt about it.

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Old 10-24-2013, 10:09 AM   #208
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
So no the 'legendary skills' of Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa.... not high ranked judoka going airborne effortlessly, top swordsmen totally owned, no pro sumotori saying "oh crap, I'm done", no ninja style dissapearing and the like?

So what is left is a more effective, efficient way to power martial movement and technique. More effective and efficient than spending years dancing around with compliant partners who have the martial skill and technique of a lettuce? For sure, no doubt about it.
That's all it ever was, Demetrio. Nothing more and nothing less. A more effective and efficient way of powering martial movement and technique, compared to the conventional methods of familiar athleticism. Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa, et al. represent the virtuosos -- the people so obsessed with aiki that they spent their lives honing and polishing it. They are the Niccolo Paganini, Yehudi Menuhin, Jascha Heifetz, Itzhak Perlman, et al. of their craft. The rest of us are varying degrees of great, good, so-so, and crappy.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:58 AM   #209
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Re: 6 Directions

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I don't see any claims of super-human abilities from the IP/aiki folks.
speak for yourself. i have leap tall building with a single bounce. it was a play house and was close call too. damn thing almost two feet high. i was faster than a speed bullets. i have dodge bullets from nerf guns many time. very good at it too. i am more powerful than the locomotive. i knocked a train off its track the other day with a flick of my toe. of course my kids yelled at me, "dad, watch where you walking! you knocked our train over!"

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:22 PM   #210
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
speak for yourself. i have leap tall building with a single bounce.
Well, that was due to the power of Chi... "Kim Chi."
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:47 PM   #211
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
That's all it ever was, Demetrio. Nothing more and nothing less. A more effective and efficient way of powering martial movement and technique, compared to the conventional methods of familiar athleticism. Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Horikawa, et al. represent the virtuosos -- the people so obsessed with aiki that they spent their lives honing and polishing it. They are the Niccolo Paganini, Yehudi Menuhin, Jascha Heifetz, Itzhak Perlman, et al. of their craft. The rest of us are varying degrees of great, good, so-so, and crappy.
But a Stradivarius is still the benchmark for violins because it SOUNDS THE BEST. Anderson Silva is the new Heifetz and he doesn't train IP. However, Steven Seagal does, so there you go...

Yeah, I have a point- Silva is a "technique" guy, and he can slow down time. Where's your Dan Harden now???
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:56 PM   #212
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
But a Stradivarius is still the benchmark for violins because it SOUNDS THE BEST. Anderson Silva is the new Heifetz and he doesn't train IP. However, Steven Seagal does, so there you go...

Yeah, I have a point- Silva is a "technique" guy, and he can slow down time. Where's your Dan Harden now???
Steven Seagal trains IP? Not in any world that I'm aware of...

Dan Harden's in Massachusetts, so far as I know - where's Gozo Shioda now (and the point...)?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 03:57 PM   #213
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
But a Stradivarius is still the benchmark for violins because it SOUNDS THE BEST. Anderson Silva is the new Heifetz and he doesn't train IP. However, Steven Seagal does, so there you go...

Yeah, I have a point- Silva is a "technique" guy, and he can slow down time. Where's your Dan Harden now???
Lol! I don't know whether Dan Harden has mastered Time itself, yet. Give him a minute...
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:48 PM   #214
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Re: 6 Directions

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Steven Seagal trains IP? Not in any world that I'm aware of...

Dan Harden's in Massachusetts, so far as I know - where's Gozo Shioda now (and the point...)?

Best,

Chris
Yeah, it's one of his general responses to criticism of his (Seagall's) Aikido- They don't understand it.

So, yeah. Kancho's dead. Like Ueshiba, Tohei. My point? This Anderson Silva highlight video:

http://youtu.be/Xh84bPPNe8s

Skip the 45 second intro and see somebody who is really from another universe. And the CRAZY thing is, those are not his students or ukes. Those are the best trained, best developed fighters in the world trying to win millions of dollars. Henderson, Okami, Franklin, Griffin. VITOR BELFORT, Sonnen, Leben, Luter, the list of top, top, top level champions he makes look like complete busters goes on and on and on.

So my point- and I'm pretty sure among Demetrio's points- if you really want to see the state of the art of the 21st century, tune into what THIS GUY is doing. HE is at a level above everybody else. HE is tuned into something that helps him fight bad guys. HE has proof: over 4,400 consecutive days of UFC World Championship status.

Nobody is arguing about whether his techniques work or have martial value. We know, because he did with it what anybody who COULD, WOULD do.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:29 PM   #215
Chris Li
 
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Nobody is arguing about whether his techniques work or have martial value. We know, because he did with it what anybody who COULD, WOULD do.
"Works" or "has value" depends upon what you're using for. I would say that they worked very well in a particular very specialized situation. Whether that would "work" in other situations - nobody knows. Certainly, I can think of any number of situations in which the answer would be "not so much".

Further, whether or not he could organize that into a transmittable form - and if that would be useful for the average person (probably not, IMO, based upon return on investment), is another question.

You ought to read Kyoichi Inoue's book on the Kojiki - it might rock some of your ideas about Yoshinkan, and about Shioda.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:11 PM   #216
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Re: 6 Directions

"6 directions and zanshin" got lost somewhere around post #12 or so. This is post #216 (yeah I know, I ain't helping). Perhaps this place needs to be re-named "WazaWeb", or ban the mention of "IP/IS" so people can stop pretending that a discussion can be had on the subject without degenerating into some kind of sub-YouTube comment section.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:06 PM   #217
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Re: 6 Directions

There's a great idea, Gerardo. Ban the mention of IP/IS in the IP/IS subforum.

Bill D, did that link go where you meant it to go? Fascinating stuff, in its way, but it never did get me to any Silva footage.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:21 PM   #218
Mert Gambito
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Re: 6 Directions

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Bill D, did that link go where you meant it to go? Fascinating stuff, in its way, but it never did get me to any Silva footage.
Textbook example of why these discussions are so difficult. "Six directions" and "spiraling" were clearly present, just not in the IP/IS context.

Mert
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:53 PM   #219
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Re: 6 Directions

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
There's a great idea, Gerardo. Ban the mention of IP/IS in the IP/IS subforum.
I was being facetious, of course, perhaps in frustration that even after all the IP/IS stuff got relegated to its own subforum, most topics end up entertainment the usual agendas: does this stuff exist, does it have any value, the personalities, etc., the latest being that one has to engage the likes of Anderson Silva in his own professional field to prove... something.

PS: That said, I was glad to have been introduced to Elvira Tassel's skillset.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:26 PM   #220
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Yeah, it's one of his general responses to criticism of his (Seagall's) Aikido- They don't understand it.

So, yeah. Kancho's dead. Like Ueshiba, Tohei. My point? This Anderson Silva highlight video:

http://youtu.be/Xh84bPPNe8s

Skip the 45 second intro and see somebody who is really from another universe. And the CRAZY thing is, those are not his students or ukes. Those are the best trained, best developed fighters in the world trying to win millions of dollars. Henderson, Okami, Franklin, Griffin. VITOR BELFORT, Sonnen, Leben, Luter, the list of top, top, top level champions he makes look like complete busters goes on and on and on.

So my point- and I'm pretty sure among Demetrio's points- if you really want to see the state of the art of the 21st century, tune into what THIS GUY is doing. HE is at a level above everybody else. HE is tuned into something that helps him fight bad guys. HE has proof: over 4,400 consecutive days of UFC World Championship status.

Nobody is arguing about whether his techniques work or have martial value. We know, because he did with it what anybody who COULD, WOULD do.
I think that footage is more like vertical spinning force focused on the upper chest area.....

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:39 PM   #221
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Re: 6 Directions

We've finally hit supercritical mass.

Last edited by Michael Varin : 10-24-2013 at 10:44 PM.

-Michael
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:59 PM   #222
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Re: 6 Directions

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Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
I think that footage is more like vertical spinning force focused on the upper chest area.....
Ha ha. Halloween greetings for a friend of mine. That will cheer most people up. Anderson Silva's technique is different is several ways: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0xQjAW6Z-o
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:47 AM   #223
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
But a Stradivarius is still the benchmark for violins because it SOUNDS THE BEST. Anderson Silva is the new Heifetz and he doesn't train IP. However, Steven Seagal does, so there you go...

Yeah, I have a point- Silva is a "technique" guy, and he can slow down time. Where's your Dan Harden now???
Anderson Silva also took one on the chin and lost his title.

Anderson Silva is a professional fighter, whose job is to be strong, be fit and fight. And he is a fantastic technician, as are several other major fight names. And when he retires, he will open a gym and people will eventually say, "who?". Who knows, maybe in 50 years we'll also criticize his remarkable feats of talent as empty propaganda. Everyone knows UFC is fixed, right? (just kidding, for the record). In previous posts, I have discussed the role of expectation in making a commitment. I think for those of us who train, we cannot meet the expectation of performance similar to a guy like Anderson Silva. We do not possess the time, resources, and commitment to change our lives in a such a way as to meet that expectation.

So is your claim to identify Anderson Silva as the benchmark for expectation of performance? Do you feel that his commitment to train is consistent with your commitment? If not, then why is he an adequate representation of your expectation of skill?

Every time I watch Muhammad Ali fight, I think, "That guy was the best boxer ever." Then I remember who he is now. Earl Campbell was one of the best running backs to ever carry the football. Now he cannot walk, let alone run. I think we need to be considerate of what expectations we put forth so that we have a chance of meeting them. Otherwise, we end up comparing Bob Gibson to Nolan Ryan and we all know Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever. In either case, I will never pitch like Bob Gibson or Nolan Ryan.

I agree, Anderson Silva is a great fighter. I enjoy watching him fight because he represents a level of skill that I will not realize. That's why I watch a number of of athletics. The derogatory term "arm chair quarterback" is used to describe he who has not the talent to play, but the intellect to judge. In no way do I confuse my talent to lock a triangle choke with Silva's failure to keep his gloves up and his mouth shut. Everyone saw it coming... a baby could've gotten out the the way. Geez.

Last edited by jonreading : 10-25-2013 at 09:51 AM.

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Old 10-25-2013, 11:17 AM   #224
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Re: 6 Directions

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Anderson Silva also took one on the chin and lost his title...I agree, Anderson Silva is a great fighter. I enjoy watching him fight because he represents a level of skill that I will not realize... In no way do I confuse my talent to lock a triangle choke with Silva's failure to keep his gloves up and his mouth shut. Everyone saw it coming... a baby could've gotten out the the way. Geez.
Please understand, I'm not saying we should all train like Anderson Silva. I'm not even slightly interested in that level of effort. My purpose in holding him up, is to say, "This is what it looks like when someone has a clear, yet indefinable advantage." Something that's more than inferred by the IP crowd, yet there's no outward indication of it being true.

Anderson was bound to lose at some point, btw. He just didn't take this fight seriously enough, but we know he'll bring out his A game in December.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:39 PM   #225
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
"This is what it looks like when someone has a clear, yet indefinable advantage." Something that's more than inferred by the IP crowd, yet there's no outward indication of it being true.
Based on data you've personally obtained, true, and taken at face value.

Based on what others have sampled, the indications are there in spades -- and the advantages are definable because IP/IS methods are, well, methods seeking to develop specific qualities leading to definable advantages. Dan Harden, Minoru Akuzawa and Sam Chin all offer systems that seek to develop the body conditioning skills for users along the continuum of martial arts, up to and expressly including the fight game. I would love to get your impressions once you've collected data from any one or more of them (and I appreciate that your not averse to doing so).

Mert
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