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Old 10-24-2013, 04:31 PM   #1
lipyeow
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"Aikido is BS"

It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:46 PM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

I'm about your size so...

What if I hit you in the head with a bokken? That would be Aikido or not?

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #3
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
Hello Master Ken! Is that your intro to your next "Enter the Dojo" video?

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:58 PM   #4
sakumeikan
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Hello Master Ken! Is that your intro to your next "Enter the Dojo" video?
Inocencio,
Brilliant, my kind of a guy. Master Ken, you are the bees knees!! Joe
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:05 PM   #5
jamie yugawa
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
Well if conventional Aikido waza doesn't work then I would use absorb you into my dantien......No wait thats something else....

Then I would spiral into you with my kua and........no .....that's something else....

Would you just take my word that it works?

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:11 PM   #6
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Jamie,
You haz to post VIDEO.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:25 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
It's been so quiet here lately that i have been double-dared into making a controversial post.

So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?

If you fail to throw me and make me fall in a graceful aikido way, you just confirmed my statement.

If you throw me around, I would say, that's no aiki, that's just brute force! Hah take that.

So how would you convince me ?

Lipyeow
Why would I care to if you hadn't attacked me?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:32 PM   #8
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

I would refer them to Minoru Mochizuki:

Quote:
There was a man named Tadashi Abe who passed away recently. I had the following encounter with him when I visited the Iwama dojo to greet O-Sensei after my return to Japan when the war ended. O-Sensei was pleased to know that I had come back safely and welcomed me warmly. I stayed there over night. That night an evil-looking man with a monk-like hairstyle came to the room where I was staying and asked permission to come in. When I gave him permission this man came in.

“My name is Tadashi Abe. Sensei, could I ask you a direct question?”. I told him to ask me anything. He asked if I was really studying aiki jujutsu seriously. At that time the art was not yet called aikido. When I replied I was, he said:

“Are you really? I have heard about you, Sensei, for a long time. I heard that you have had experience in actual fighting situations. I think it is strange that a person like you feels satisfied with an art like aiki jujutsu.” When I asked why he thought so he said that Ueshiba Sensei or Mr. Morhiro Saito would not be able to stand against him in a match even for three minutes because he would defeat them with one blow.

“You’re quite boastful, aren’t you?”, I replied. “You feel confident that you can defeat Ueshiba Sensei?”, I added. He said that he thought it would be easy for him to defeat Sensei and added:

“Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don’t feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?”

I replied as follows:

“I have been in many street-fights but I wouldn’t include them in the category of actual fighting. I have also drawn a sword and stormed the enemy camp.”

Then he asked me whether or not aikido was really useful for fighting. When I replied that aikido was very useful not only for fights but also in times of war, he said my answer didn’t convince him. So I suggested that he attack me and stood there telling him to come anyway he wanted. He asked me to adopt a ready stance. I told him:

“Don’t say unnecessary things. There is no way for someone to defeat his enemy if he tells him what to do. Attack me as you like!”

Abe still mumbled: “Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange… You have openings everywhere…” Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

“How can a person like you who faints when he catches a little kick last in a fight?”

“Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?”

“You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war… an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word ‘aiki’ because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given (“Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That’s the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called ‘aiki no jutsu’. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.” “Is that so… I think I understand.” “If you still don’t understand, come to me again.” After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.


Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:36 PM   #9
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Chris,
Great story!

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-24-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:21 PM   #10
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Chris,

That quote is still coming up with funny characters just like every time you post it. . . And I have a new computer!

But the main point of that story is in my signature line.

I like it.

More people should read it carefully.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:30 PM   #11
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

There is even more to that statement than meets the eye. Awareness is a major factor (and it's a cultivated skill) in what makes aiki effective.
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:31 PM   #12
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Chris,

That quote is still coming up with funny characters just like every time you post it. . . And I have a new computer!

But the main point of that story is in my signature line.

I like it.

More people should read it carefully.
Something with the forum software and unicode, I think - well, too late to edit now!

I don't necessarily disagree with that line - but I think that it's an effect rather than a cause - that is, that it's discussing something that may (or may not, depending on how you look at the whole issue) occur through Aiki, but doesn't really describe the process of how to produce that effect.

One of my favorite talks with Sam Chin was about the difference between cause and effect, and how they are not necessarily very similar.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 10:51 PM   #13
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Chris, loved the story. That is MY O Sensei.

Regarding the OP, I'd say, "Yeah. I just use it to practice the throws and joint locks. Want to see some of them? Come to practice."
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:42 PM   #14
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with that line - but I think that it's an effect rather than a cause - that is, that it's discussing something that may (or may not, depending on how you look at the whole issue) occur through Aiki, but doesn't really describe the process of how to produce that effect.

One of my favorite talks with Sam Chin was about the difference between cause and effect, and how they are not necessarily very similar.
Interesting perspective; I will have to ponder it a bit more.

But at this point I think it's off the mark.

There are a number of things stated in that story that point to something that is a pre-contact, "mental" skill, one of relationship. And really nothing that indicated any concerns for structure, connections in the body, generating power, etc. The way in which he mentions the use of guns and artillery could lead one to believe that the use of the body itself is not even an element of this skill.

Obviously nothing in the story can be said to be a "how to," but more of a "what is."

Quote:
Minoru Mochizuki wrote:
You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki.
So maybe Mochizuki knew, maybe he didn't. I don't know!

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:45 PM   #15
Michael Varin
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Chris,

One more thing.

You have posted that story a number of times. You must like it.

How do you interpret it?

Here I go hijacking another thread

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:55 AM   #16
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Interesting perspective; I will have to ponder it a bit more.

But at this point I think it's off the mark.

There are a number of things stated in that story that point to something that is a pre-contact, "mental" skill, one of relationship. And really nothing that indicated any concerns for structure, connections in the body, generating power, etc. The way in which he mentions the use of guns and artillery could lead one to believe that the use of the body itself is not even an element of this skill.

Obviously nothing in the story can be said to be a "how to," but more of a "what is."
So you have a mental skill - how do you get there? Ueshiba came to it through the body and intent - he said as much in Takemusu Aiki, where it's both defined classically and linked to various mental dimensions.

Are there effects that can be used without the body? Sure, but I could say the same for weightlifting. That doesn't mean that the process that creates those effects doesn't work through the body.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:58 AM   #17
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Chris,

One more thing.

You have posted that story a number of times. You must like it.

How do you interpret it?

Here I go hijacking another thread
I just like the point it makes which echoes Kisshomaru's comment that "my father was not a pacifist". Also, the point that Aikido is not a technical method in the sense of a particular type of joint manipulation. The mental dimension he mentions is interesting, but not all that useful, IMO, unless you hook it up with the right background.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-25-2013, 03:50 AM   #18
PaulF
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
So how would you convince me ?
I wouldn't try, we're all entitled to our opinions and I'm not much of a proselytiser
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:58 AM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

What I find funny about this Mochizuki story is he doesn't mention how frenchies were somehow inmune to his aikido and his judo/karate background saving his ass.

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:48 AM   #20
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

A fair question. I'm only about 5'8" but I'm fairly solidly constructed so have gotten the "brute force assertion" more than once. (And size does matter, no matter what they say, uhm)

But a fairly simple thing is to have a simple hands on shoulder connection, remove their connection to the ground in the subtlest way your skill allows, such that they stagger and have to take a step. You can say, "That thar is Aiki!". The same thing gets applied in locks, throws and strikes, yippee. (For the judo purists it's the subtler setup to kuzushi than more observable timing and pressure set ups)
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:03 AM   #21
phitruong
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?
my answer: yup! it's all BS! we like wearing funny skirt and some of us might even shave our legs. what else you got?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #22
lbb
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?
I wouldn't, because you wouldn't. Come up to me out of the blue and start spouting, that is. We have a name for people like that around here: we call them "street crazies", and if you've lived in a city, you can spot 'em and do the swerve and leave 'em explaining their conspiracy theory to the air.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:40 PM   #23
Rob Watson
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Minoru Mochizuki wrote:
I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg.
Are we sure this was translated correctly? Maybe "sweep the leg"? Come on ... that is funny!

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:48 PM   #24
Chris Li
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Are we sure this was translated correctly? Maybe "sweep the leg"? Come on ... that is funny!
Hmm...not sure, but Mochizuki trained with Funakoshi, so a kick seems likely...

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:45 PM   #25
Shadowfax
 
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Re: "Aikido is BS"

Quote:
Lipyeow Lim wrote: View Post
So suppose a small guy (like me), 5 feet 8 inches tall, 140 lbs, comes up to you and say "Aikido is all BS". How would you convince me otherwise?
I wouldn't bother to try. Your problem with aikido is not my problem.
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