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Old 10-20-2013, 01:10 PM   #76
Budd
 
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

William, not to pick on you, but would you say that reading your prior posts would be a good example of someone with a lot of credible prior experience in martial arts that was fairly vocal in challenging the "value" of focusing on IP but then had a rather eye-opening experience once you got hands on time with people credibly training it?
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:17 PM   #77
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

And as a general aside, it's been pretty interesting over the years watching these conversations evolve as various peoples' stances change as they get access to new information and experiences.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:56 PM   #78
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
William, not to pick on you, but would you say that reading your prior posts would be a good example of someone with a lot of credible prior experience in martial arts that was fairly vocal in challenging the "value" of focusing on IP but then had a rather eye-opening experience once you got hands on time with people credibly training it?
Absolutely correct Budd. I was skeptical at first and it got contentious at times between me and the main promoters of "Aiki" here on Aikiweb. Now, having seen and felt "it", and more importantly, understanding what the heck they're talking about...I straight up apologized to Dan Harden for being so ignorant. I am now humbled and excited for the opportunity to take my practice to another level.

William Hazen
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:42 PM   #79
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Absolutely correct Budd. I was skeptical at first and it got contentious at times between me and the main promoters of "Aiki" here on Aikiweb. Now, having seen and felt "it", and more importantly, understanding what the heck they're talking about...I straight up apologized to Dan Harden for being so ignorant. I am now humbled and excited for the opportunity to take my practice to another level.

William Hazen
noooooo! say it isn't so! you drank the cool-aid, didn't you?!!! told you to stay out of the water, but noooo did you listen? sheesh! another bites the dust! aikiweb will be boring now.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:13 PM   #80
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
noooooo! say it isn't so! you drank the cool-aid, didn't you?!!! told you to stay out of the water, but noooo did you listen? sheesh! another bites the dust! aikiweb will be boring now.
Now?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:00 AM   #81
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

All technique has internal power. How can it be separate?

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Old 10-23-2013, 12:11 PM   #82
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
It is often stated by proponents of "IP/IT/IS" that the techniques of aikido (and presumably other styles) are unimportant; that "IP/IT/IS" operates outside of technique.

In my very limited experience, I would have to say I disagree. In my admittedly short exposure to "IP/IT/IS" I found that everything shown was technique based. It may not be what many would call a formal technique, but technique I believe it is. In my opinion, it really comes down to what distinctions the practitioner is able to make.

Any thoughts?
About ten years ago, I began developing a non-technique based model for learning and teaching aikido that bypasses technique proficiency as a marker for aikido proficiency. Even though it is an evolving thing, I feel confident now that the pedagogy is defined enough to offer this as a stand-alone method of aikido education from beginner to advanced levels, or as an adjunct to traditional practice.

In devising this teaching/learning model I drew on the teachings of Osensei, Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei, Saotome Sensei, Tohei Sensei, (Rod) Kobayashi Sensei, and Don O'Bell Sensei. I have experienced most of the principles in my method affirmed in the practice of Ikeda Sensei, Heiny Sensei, Palmer Sensei, Ledyard Sensei and the late Kevin Choate Sensei.

In doing this work, I was able to break down aikido movements as well as the bio-mechanics of attacking humans into elemental parts. Students in my method are never shown techniques to emulate other than some simple combinations that lead to an aiki-resolution (what others might see as a throw), and then only to train the elemental movements. They are taught those elements as interchangeable parts so that the path of the aiki, often regulated through repetitive training to a technique-defined track that Mark Freeman has called "fixed like a fly in amber", is created spontaneously as a harmonious flow of the combined intentions of uke and nage.

They are taught the elemental movements in a structure of "stretches" and "spots" rather than attacks and defenses to offset the automatic defense mechanisms that arise from perceiving the actions of the partner as a threat. Attacks call for defense even from a neurolinguistic trigger, but stretches call for spotting, or taking care of the partner through the stretch - being involved but not interfering. In this way, the highest goals of aikido (from my perspective), the loving protection of all things, is instituted in the training from the get go.

Once the beginners show some proficiency in the movements, we transition them into intermediate practice where they never know how they will be grabbed or struck - with authentic attack energy at reduced intensity, not the kind of collusive ukemi that is required to learn a complex technique. Through this practice they learn that the elemental ( and now trained) movements come out naturally when their ki is extended and connecting in the relevant way. We use holds and strikes that are unconventional in aikido training and try not to do the same attack more than a couple of times before switching to reduce physical patterning that begins to take hold in the aikidoist's neurology immediately. In this kind of practice we see many paths that resemble traditionally demonstrated aikido techniques, but most usually the path to the mat is much simpler and more direct.

As ukes in this method, students learn how to transmit authentic attack energy and how when doing so it is easy to recognize openings where nage is disconnecting, trying to use force to throw or withdrawing ki. In our dojo it is impossible to do a technique that is not in harmony with the attack without an application of force, because we train not to just go along with a throw. Force could always be applied through the leverage that aikido movements can provide, but because of the goals of the dojo no one takes the route of attempting to overpower their partners through leverage or brute strength. The practice becomes one in which the operating principle is masakatsu agatsu because there will be no resolution without a true manifestation of aiki born of transcendence of lower brain (automatic) responses.

I would have to agree with you Michael the way you put it - the physical part of the training of the elements of aikido movement are essential for the spiritual parts (ki no nagare) to produce the aiki-resolution. So for me, there is some aspect of "technique" which is absolutely essential, but this is only to allow the path of least resistance to manifest. Again, this training, which is really only training in where and how to move in order to support one's partner as his attack leads him to the mat, is so that the automatic trained responses only serve to add stability to the living, unfolding path, not to insure this attacker is going to the ground in a pre-determined path which may or may not be harmonious with the attack.

It's interesting to read that some practitioners change their minds about the validity of "IP" principles when they actually feel the principles in action. I have found that the feeling itself is much harder to deny, (even if defying reason in the person feeling it for the first time).

If you're on the fence, or believe in the validity of what Osensei (and Dai Sensei Kanshu Sunadomari) called takemusu aiki, or even if you believe it is hogwash, I can show you what I am talking about if we can get together, and you are serious about the truth and efficacy of not relying on technique. (kool-aid is optional, lol)

I will be in the Washington D.C. area November 17-20, 2013 to speak and demonstrate at George Mason University at a class on the Body and Conflict, and my host is making arrangements for dojo time around that event. Currently it looks like my practice partners and I will be in an aikido dojo most of the time, the location of which we are in the process of locking down. If you contact me I will put you in touch with my host so we can coordinate.

Also planning some time in Western Canada, specifically Vancouver January 2014 and possibly the Edmonton area in the same trip. I'm in the process of making a domestic and international seminar/workshop schedule for 2014, so if anyone is interested in having me visit his or her area with this crazy stuff, please let me know. I hope this sounds less like an ad than an invitation to experience what the application of ki arising from benevolent intention feels like rather than dismissing it without first hand experience.

Respectfully,

Corky
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:21 AM   #83
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
All technique has internal power. How can it be separate?
Interesting statement.

During my first years of aikidō all the teaching I experienced was only about technique.
What I understand as "internal power" by now, I experience only in the last years and only with very few teachers.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 10-24-2013 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 10-24-2013, 02:47 AM   #84
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Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
All technique has internal power. How can it be separate?
Some people have internal power and are able to manifest them through waza. A majority honestly well....don't. There maybe aspects of IP that people may have but this is a different level. I albeit I don't have the experience in years as many of the people in the forum but have practiced enough to know and feel the difference.

The internal power manifested by Dan Harden and Sam Chin sifu are quite different from anything I have ever felt. I have been uke for several high ranking Sensei at different times and there is no comparison. There is an instant kuzushi and impenetrability upon first contact. You cannot get "inside" nor feel their center. There is no "Tanking" or "Hypnosis". You move because you have no choice. The is no "leading ki" or cues to fall. There are no tells of physical tension or windup. You are moved and moved hard!

When this caliber of IP is added to waza the results are quite amazing. The other person honestly has no chance.

In researching this IP/IS methodology, I can understand the skepticism and disbelief of the mainstream towards this route. I think Aikido is an amazing martial art and has changed peoples lives around the world. Why change it? Why mess with a martial art that encompasses a high moral foundation and promotes peace and harmony? Why mess the with the "Art of Harmony"? I think the people of the IP movement are honestly not degrading or trying to denigrate Aikido. Through the efforts of people like Chris Li and Dan Harden, the origins and source of O-Sensei's power are coming to light. Instead of the debate and debunk route why not go to the source? If you have an open mind and are willing to find out what the reason why these IP people are so adamant about this "New" trend, you may be surprised at what you find. All of the people involved in the IP movement I have met are all great people and willing to share all of the information they have with others.

On another note, Dan Harden is a really nice guy and a formidable martial artist. I am happy to have met him. My view on the martial arts and the path of budo are diverging due to my exposure to IP/IS.

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:42 AM   #85
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

"Why ...?"

To me it is very important to note that practicing aikidō as an internal art is not only about the bodily and the martial aspects. But that it provides the way to health and longevity and to spiritual growth which internal arts are usually known for.
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:45 AM   #86
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
During my first years of aikidō all the teaching I experienced was only about technique. What I understand as "internal power" by now, I experience only in the last years and only with very few teachers.
Fortunately for Mary and me, Maruyama sensei spent much of his teaching time with us hammering home the idea that Aikido was first and foremost about developing mind/body coordination to realize correct feeling (what, I suppose, you folks refer to as internal power). He used technique as a vehicle to illustrate his ideas as well as a way to put them into practice.

Ronj

Last edited by RonRagusa : 10-24-2013 at 06:47 AM.

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Old 10-24-2013, 07:27 AM   #87
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
Some people have internal power and are able to manifest them through waza. A majority honestly well....don't. There maybe aspects of IP that people may have but this is a different level. I albeit I don't have the experience in years as many of the people in the forum but have practiced enough to know and feel the difference.

The internal power manifested by Dan Harden and Sam Chin sifu are quite different from anything I have ever felt. I have been uke for several high ranking Sensei at different times and there is no comparison. There is an instant kuzushi and impenetrability upon first contact. You cannot get "inside" nor feel their center. There is no "Tanking" or "Hypnosis". You move because you have no choice. The is no "leading ki" or cues to fall. There are no tells of physical tension or windup. You are moved and moved hard!

When this caliber of IP is added to waza the results are quite amazing. The other person honestly has no chance.

In researching this IP/IS methodology, I can understand the skepticism and disbelief of the mainstream towards this route. I think Aikido is an amazing martial art and has changed peoples lives around the world. Why change it? Why mess with a martial art that encompasses a high moral foundation and promotes peace and harmony? Why mess the with the "Art of Harmony"? I think the people of the IP movement are honestly not degrading or trying to denigrate Aikido. Through the efforts of people like Chris Li and Dan Harden, the origins and source of O-Sensei's power are coming to light. Instead of the debate and debunk route why not go to the source? If you have an open mind and are willing to find out what the reason why these IP people are so adamant about this "New" trend, you may be surprised at what you find. All of the people involved in the IP movement I have met are all great people and willing to share all of the information they have with others.

On another note, Dan Harden is a really nice guy and a formidable martial artist. I am happy to have met him. My view on the martial arts and the path of budo are diverging due to my exposure to IP/IS.
I thought we had agreed not to promote like this and to share ideas.

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Old 10-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #88
Janet Rosen
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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I thought we had agreed not to promote like this and to share ideas.
Jeez Louise, the man is posting his experience and opinion, not creating a color poster promoting seminars or trying to sign you up for anything.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:49 AM   #89
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Hi Janet, Are you quoting Lula or Stephanie?

I disagree with you. He is urging me to meet people that I have expressed no interest in meeting. I train in a way where internals are part of my aikido training. I would like to be able to discuss this without repeatedly being told that I don't really understand what is going on.

I understand where I am heading and how I am training. Your input was not helpful nor does it further the discussion.

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Old 10-24-2013, 12:48 PM   #90
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I disagree with you. He is urging me to meet people that I have expressed no interest in meeting. I train in a way where internals are part of my aikido training. I would like to be able to discuss this without repeatedly being told that I don't really understand what is going on.

I understand where I am heading and how I am training. Your input was not helpful nor does it further the discussion.
I don't see how Jaime telling us to go see Dan Harden is any different than the other 57 people saying it. Personally, I am sick of hearing it, too, since it makes for a very circular conversation. But this is an IP thread, so I expect it.

Have I mentioned the theory that there are legions of people out there just waiting to be offended by something? I can't remember now...
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #91
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Janet, Are you quoting Lula or Stephanie?

I disagree with you. He is urging me to meet people that I have expressed no interest in meeting. I train in a way where internals are part of my aikido training. I would like to be able to discuss this without repeatedly being told that I don't really understand what is going on.

I understand where I am heading and how I am training. Your input was not helpful nor does it further the discussion.
That's great that you know where you want to go and how you want to train. This internal thing is not for everyone. There are many paths up the mountain and many different ways to train. I respect you for sticking to your path. I am not saying you are wrong in your training. I have an open view about life and finding your own way.

From my perspective it seems funny that so many people are debating about this IP/IS thing. "Its not "Aiki"!!!" or "O Sensei didn't teach that!" and on the other side people are saying the opposite. In my case I wanted to find out what the big deal was and met Dan and Sam. It changed the way I want to train and view budo.

(Soft and nice tone) Also how can you and others say that you have internals and understand what the "IP" people are doing if there has been no interaction or training with them? (I apologize if it seems brash but the internet does not allow to show your tone of voice or feelings through writing) IMHO people honestly cannot debate something that is one sided without making themselves look bad in the process. You stated you have no interest in training with the IP groups. That's fine but, how can you say they are wrong and you are right without proof or first hand experience? Just by saying "I have done this for X years and trained with x shihan which mean I have and understand IP" or "I understand IP and have been doing it for years" does not equate proof of IP of the caliber of Dan Harden or Sam Chin. The people in the IP groups are not really insular and are open to training with everybody.

I am sure you are a long practicing Aikidoka with a wealth of experience and been able to work with some high ranking shihan and sensei. You have probably have your own dojo ( I am not sure). So I can understand yours and others frustration when someone comes along and tells you that you are missing aspects of the art. For me it was more curiosity than frustration that made me seek the proponents of this "new" movement. And I am happy I did as this training has changed my view about the potential Aikido has.

I would love to meet you sometime and train with you sometime as well as the others who are vocally opposed to the IP thing. Hawaii is a nice place to train all year long!

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-24-2013, 03:49 PM   #92
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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For me, technique is a small thing, a building block of interaction. .... You put together an interaction of tactical movements and you get a kata.
Kata is to the art as snapshots are to a hike in the mountains. They cannot show you the way ... for that you need a guide -- or perhaps a map -- if you can read the map. Maps, of course, require no effort to traverse, and in addition provide a perspective that is unnatural and difficult to interpret from the actual level of practice.

But the snapshots are neverthless valuable references, with or without a map. They help you recognize certain key features of the landscape that help orient you -- and that someone unfamiliar and untrained would almost never just come upon or recognize merely by accidental wandering around the terrain.

In class I sometime analogize waza as (not quite) arbitrary cross-sections of a sausage -- the sausage is pretty much the same throughout its length, and the same type of sausage actually varies a lot between individual examples -- but somehow they are all very similar as well., Understanding its internal structure is hard to do without taking one to bits piece by piece. Then you have to learn make your own sausage -- which of course no one like to watch.... .

More technically speaking, a sausage slice is a 2D representation along only one plane of the 3d object. If you have ever seen the sketch of a hypercube -- you have seen a 2D representation of a 4D object.

Waza are 4D representations of a 7D continuum -- not just the continuum of action (5D) that it immediately represents from but one perspective -- but also of a contingent continuum of action (6D) of which its representation is but one branch or element in the whole.

The real thing lies is in finally grasping, intuitively, physically, and to greater or lesser degree, the underlying patterns -- the 7D stuff that creates the forms, and rhythms and dynamics of the resulting contingent continuum of action -- or in other words, the takemusu aiki.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-24-2013 at 03:53 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:59 PM   #93
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
I would love to meet you sometime and train with you sometime as well as the others who are vocally opposed to the IP thing. Hawaii is a nice place to train all year long!
Jamie -

You are lumping Mary, and me indirectly, into a group to which we do not belong. Please understand, we are not opposed to "the IP thing". Personally I think it's great that folks are finally beginning to see the value of extending their training beyond the waza only model. We have been exposed to internal training as a regular part of our Aikido practice since we began (over 25 years for Mary, ~40 for me).

Our training paradigm is different from the methods currently being espoused on AikiWeb. Different exercises, different goals, many of the same results.

We aren't fliers, so a trip to lovely Hawaii doesn't loom large in our future. If you're ever on the east coast drop us a line you're welcome to come and train with us.

Ron

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #94
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Jamie -

You are lumping Mary, and me indirectly, into a group to which we do not belong. Please understand, we are not opposed to "the IP thing". Personally I think it's great that folks are finally beginning to see the value of extending their training beyond the waza only model. We have been exposed to internal training as a regular part of our Aikido practice since we began (over 25 years for Mary, ~40 for me).

Our training paradigm is different from the methods currently being espoused on AikiWeb. Different exercises, different goals, many of the same results.

We aren't fliers, so a trip to lovely Hawaii doesn't loom large in our future. If you're ever on the east coast drop us a line you're welcome to come and train with us.

Ron
That would be great! I have never been to the East coast and would like to experience what you are training. I have worked with some of the Ki Society people here and find great value in what they train in. I think being open and meeting people training in different methods and organizations can only lead to growth and friendship. I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions Mary.

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:16 PM   #95
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
You are lumping Mary, and me indirectly, into a group to which we do not belong. Please understand, we are not opposed to "the IP thing". Personally I think it's great that folks are finally beginning to see the value of extending their training beyond the waza only model. We have been exposed to internal training as a regular part of our Aikido practice since we began (over 25 years for Mary, ~40 for me).

Our training paradigm is different from the methods currently being espoused on AikiWeb. Different exercises, different goals, many of the same results.
I haven't seen Maruyama for almost thirty years - but what he was doing back then was really not much like what we're doing except for some very basic crossover.

I have no idea what you folks are doing, we've never met.

On the other hand, if you've never met Dan then you really don't know what he's doing either.

This stuff is different enough that most people who think that they're doing the same thing...aren't.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 05:25 PM   #96
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
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I haven't seen Maruyama for almost thirty years - but what he was doing back then was really not much like what we're doing except for some very basic crossover.

I have no idea what you folks are doing, we've never met.

On the other hand, if you've never met Dan then you really don't know what he's doing either.

This stuff is different enough that most people who think that they're doing the same thing...aren't.

Best,

Chris
I saw Maruyama Sensei at Nippon kan in Colorado in 2005. He was impressive a lot of up and down movement with little muscle. He was pounding the same uke for about an hour! I unfortunately never got to experience any hands on stuff with him.

Chris makes a good point having the other point of reference in the two different methods. I will be honest in never feeling anything like Dan or Sam ....ever. I know Chris has about three times more experience than me and living in Japan for an extended period of time. I think he a lot of IHTBF in his memory banks.

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:46 PM   #97
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I haven't seen Maruyama for almost thirty years - but what he was doing back then was really not much like what we're doing except for some very basic crossover.

I have no idea what you folks are doing, we've never met.

On the other hand, if you've never met Dan then you really don't know what he's doing either.

This stuff is different enough that most people who think that they're doing the same thing...aren't.

Best,

Chris
As I said, different exercises, different goals, many of the same results (if you're counting Ueshiba's push/pull test demonstrations as part of your result set).

Ron

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Old 10-24-2013, 06:55 PM   #98
Chris Li
 
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
As I said, different exercises, different goals, many of the same results (if you're counting Ueshiba's push/pull test demonstrations as part of your result set).

Ron
My point was - I'm not commenting on what you do, I cannot comment on what you do, because I have never met you.

In the same vein, you have no basis for making a statement as to similarity or differences because you have never met Dan.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-24-2013, 07:49 PM   #99
CorkyQ
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

The thing with "IP" training is that the real education is not in theory but in how it feels. If a person hasn't felt the difference between relying on technique proficiency and using ki, that person will have little frame of reference.

I start seminars by attacking everyone present. Even beginners usually can demonstrate a technique with reasonable proficiency. After being thrown a few dozen times I then attack each participant with authentic attack energy at a moderate intensity but full intention, rather than my 20-year trained way of "taking ukemi" and suddenly there is no aikido - and this is from people who have been training for decades.

Bear in mind that the attack I am giving each of my partners is fully "aikido-able" (I am not "defending" against their throw) but what usually happens after the initial panic the moment their systems register that this feels nothing like aikido practice ukemi, they usually either try to force me through their chosen technique or give it up altogether.

What anyone cares to get out of their practice is none of my business, but for me, the essence of aikido was not being learned while my techniques did not result in effortless (harmonious) manifestation of aiki when attacked with authentic intention. Once I began training a different way it changed everything - I learned how much I thought about aikido was actually missing the point, and how much of the beneficial aspect of aikido I was not receiving only training in the traditional way.

The hardest part was starting over after twenty years, unlearning old habits and techniques, and approaching aikido with a whole new set of guidelines. For me that meant breaking away from the traditional ways and my semi-traditional dojo and seeking a different path on my own. Luckily for me I made my way to Sunadomari Sensei who affirmed my path as well as saying this in an interview (translated from Japanese to French to English, but I understand this to be accurate based on what I took away from our meeting): You can create your own techniques. If you understand the basics you can create techniques to infinity, we do not need someone to come teach us. We then see the wonderful beauty of Aikido.
If you do not understand even a single technique of Aikido all variations born spontaneously.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:58 PM   #100
Michael Varin
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Hey!

Only like one person understood the point of my original post.

My thread got hijacked.

"IP/IT/IS" people are mean. Non-"IP/IT/IS" people are clueless.

Can't wait 'til the next thread. . .

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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