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Old 10-18-2013, 04:20 PM   #51
Cliff Judge
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Thank you. I'm not meaning to split hairs over the proper use of vocabulary. I am just trying to sort of evaluate the concept. Somehow, there should be a scientific comparison made between a control study and a test group. It sounds like the world wants to know if a tangible benefit can be proven by some kind of data.
You need to split your groups up and have one of them train one way and the other another way....for 30 years. And each group needs to be entirely convinced that they are right. Hmmm....maybe we are already performing this study.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #52
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

There are some pretty senior people with experience in both methods that if you are genuinely seeking the answer is pretty clear. If you're looking to share observations based on suppositions and conjecture, by all means continue. Credible opinions have already weighed in for years.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #53
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Where is the data? The scientific method exists for this exact reason. "Credible opinions" conflict on the subject. After all of this, the lack of evidence supporting IP seems to lead the conclusion.

If an advantage can't be clearly demonstrated, I don't see the point of training it. I'd rather be wrong and have the advantage than be right and not have one. So I promise I'm open to the idea if it's merit can be demonstrated.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:15 PM   #54
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

As mentioned already, you don't get to dictate the terms under which it will be demonstrated. I included the link to the taiji study. Additional exploration will require some skin in the game.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:46 PM   #55
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Scientific studies and data? Sheesh. Maybe I don't get out much (ok, I don't get out much) but I can't think of any other martial art in which such a conversation would exist.
Curious about something, go and and find a dojo or seminar or one person who is doing what you are curious about. That's what I've done pretty much since I was a newbie. Some things I found worth pursuing and some not. Some piqued my interest but not enough to keep going with. Not one dojo visit to any style was wasted effort.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:06 AM   #56
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Hi Janet,

I don't begrudge anyone looking for empirical data, but to your point the most reliable method in a martial arts setting would be first-hand experience, presumably supported by positive findings from credible peers or seniors. At this point, I kind of write of anyone that comes across as stubbornly insisting there's nothing there but has yet to actually go find out.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:43 AM   #57
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Where is the data? The scientific method exists for this exact reason. "Credible opinions" conflict on the subject. After all of this, the lack of evidence supporting IP seems to lead the conclusion.
The scientific approach is used in combat sports, martial arts are usually averse to scientific method. Do you know S. J. Gould's "non overlapping magisteria" position? This is the basically the same thing.

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Old 10-19-2013, 08:58 AM   #58
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Demetrio, which scientific approach are you referring to in combat sports, that you see absent in martial arts, specifically?
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #59
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Demetrio, which scientific approach are you referring to in combat sports, that you see absent in martial arts, specifically?
There are lots of studies about what affects performance in sports (food, biomechanics, training methodologies, psychology, metabolism, genetics...) combat sports included. Martial arts studies about performance are few and far between.

Try this for instance:

-Go to google scholar

-Search: judo performance training

-Search: aikido performance training

-Compare results

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Old 10-19-2013, 10:26 AM   #60
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The difference is that the IS/IP/Aiki work gives you a level of freedom that Aikido without these skills does not have.
Aikido without Ki. And I agree, Aikido without Ki does restrict my freedom of action when interacting with uke.

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
If I use timing, blending, and flow (in addition to joint locks and similar mechanical techniques) I'm very much constrained by what uke is doing.
What you see as constraint, I see as opportunity to find creative and effective ways of interacting with uke using the tools at my disposal. Timing, blending and flow are some of the tools that help give Aikido its form. Ki gives Aikido its substance (in a manner of speaking).

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
If uke is unbalanced as soon as he/she touches me, and can't put force into me with a strike or a grab, I can pretty much do what I like.
That sentence pretty much sums up the purpose of Ki development. When I have mind and body coordinated I'm in my strongest and most dependable state. Why would I want to wait to be grabbed or struck to take uke's balance? Allowing uke to have hands on access to me helps with strengthening mind/body coordination in practice but not terribly practical "in the field". My work in this area continues to center on unbalancing uke before being grabbed or struck. I find timing, blending and flow (among others) to be effective tools, if applied with mind/body coordination, to achieve that end.

Ron

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Old 10-19-2013, 10:36 AM   #61
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

I don't have an agenda to disprove IP. I want to live in a universe where it works, but so far it really seems like we don't. I hate to raise the spectre of UFC because I know you guys hate that. But millions of dollars, multiple careers and issues of national pride rest on the outcomes of those matches. And sorry, but they ARE the best comparative test of martial arts we have available. They scrape for every microscopic advantage they can gain. They generally deride IP and that's the most credible opinion I know of.

I trained for about 6 months with someone who's a (possibly self-) titled IP Master and finally concluded it was a crock. I chalked that up to individual experience, not to reflect the issue as a whole. I wondered the same thing about Aikido, started training in it and 9 years later, I'm still enjoying it.

Not everything I learned here "works", frankly, but I know the difference because my 24 year old, 2nd kyu son outweighs me by 30 lbs and cuts me zero slack. If I think something works, he loves to make me prove it.
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:08 PM   #62
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I don't have an agenda to disprove IP. I want to live in a universe where it works, but so far it really seems like we don't. I hate to raise the spectre of UFC because I know you guys hate that. But millions of dollars, multiple careers and issues of national pride rest on the outcomes of those matches. And sorry, but they ARE the best comparative test of martial arts we have available. They scrape for every microscopic advantage they can gain. They generally deride IP and that's the most credible opinion I know of.

I trained for about 6 months with someone who's a (possibly self-) titled IP Master and finally concluded it was a crock. I chalked that up to individual experience, not to reflect the issue as a whole. I wondered the same thing about Aikido, started training in it and 9 years later, I'm still enjoying it.

Not everything I learned here "works", frankly, but I know the difference because my 24 year old, 2nd kyu son outweighs me by 30 lbs and cuts me zero slack. If I think something works, he loves to make me prove it.
And yet...there are no scientific comparisons, studies or data with a clearly demonstrated advantage for training in Yoshinkan - why doesn't that cause a problem for you?

For that matter, the UFC generally derides most traditional arts, including Aikido (even Yoshinkan Aikido) - so how come you don't follow the "credible opinion" that you yourself are citing?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #63
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I don't have an agenda to disprove IP. I want to live in a universe where it works, but so far it really seems like we don't. I hate to raise the spectre of UFC because I know you guys hate that. But millions of dollars, multiple careers and issues of national pride rest on the outcomes of those matches. And sorry, but they ARE the best comparative test of martial arts we have available. They scrape for every microscopic advantage they can gain. They generally deride IP and that's the most credible opinion I know of.
IP of compelling quality is extremely rare, but it is there. It's just not fair to say "we don't" live in a universe with it based on data points collected by an individual, because there are other data points that indicate it is there.

Dan Harden, for example, typically characterizes himself as an MMAist first and foremost (and reportedly still trains MMAists). I know an MMAist who's been a wrestler since high school and currently trains at BJ Penn's UFC Gym here who put Dan Harden in a mount (there were multiple MMAists at this particular venue, and so katate- and ryote-dori stuff wasn't their bag so much). Dan placed the palm of his hand against this MMAist's flank, and demonstrated issuing spiraling power from flat on his back (basically a no-inch palm-heel strike) that popped this seasoned fighter two feet in the air, horizontally laid out, and cleanly off to the side. The fighter on the receiving end stated, upon gathering himself and taking a quick inventory of his ribs, "this is beyond anything taught in the fight game."

So if IP is that effective in MMA applications, then why isn't it the training protocol of choice among elite fighters in the UFC and elsewhere? Well, why would it be popular in the UFC if its dissemination via methodologies conducive to imparting it to a broad, primarily western audience is still slowly gaining traction within the traditional arts from which the methodologies were derived (UFC 1 occurred well before the interest in what Dan, Mike Sigman, the Aunkai, ILC, etc. are collectively doing began to hit critical mass, so the current IP movement is still quite young)? If traditional martial artists who are looking for aiki and other forms of internal power are slow adopters as a whole, then how much less buy-in can we expect from those who, as you indicate, thumb their noses at it (personally, from those I've spoken to, it's simply not a concept they're aware of)? And, there's always a cost-benefit equilibrium point, especially when cost-benefit is literally about money, for individual fighters and the sanctioning body. Who wants to tune in to The Ultimate Fighter and see a bunch of guys doing standing-stake and torifune for the entire season of episodes?? Dan will be the first to say that developing IP and learning to fight are largely mutually exclusive endeavors. Each individually will take several years, and then there are the years needed to effectively meld those skills. Maybe if someone's rare and preternaturally adept at both and doesn't have to hold down a day job, they get there in a decade. For a young fighter looking for or in need of a payday, or simply seeking to scratch the competitive itch, it makes sense to default to proven external training methodologies that bring him/her up to a competitive level ASAP.

Nonetheless, the data points will come, Bill -- at least in pockets within the traditional arts. There are enough contemporaries who are studious, disciplined and mission-oriented doing the work for that not to be the case during the next few years.

Mert
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:05 PM   #64
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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And yet...there are no scientific comparisons, studies or data with a clearly demonstrated advantage for training in Yoshinkan - why doesn't that cause a problem for you?

For that matter, the UFC generally derides most traditional arts, including Aikido (even Yoshinkan Aikido) - so how come you don't follow the "credible opinion" that you yourself are citing?
Thanks for asking- it's because I'm old now. When I was young we had to mix our own martial arts, because there was no UFC to point the way back then. So I have belts in Yoshukai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate, Shao Lama Kung Fu and Judo, plus my Aikido rank. In my late 30's, I liked to train at our local MMA gym, the Academy of Mixed Martial Arts, but now that I'm in my 40's I know I don't have another 20 years of that left in me. Honestly, I don't even want to train as hard as the 20-something UFC wannabes, let alone compete with them.

I want advantages now, and I don't want to work as much to get them. Yoshinkan Aikido is gentle enough that I can train hard into my 60's but still adds legitimate skills to my repertoire. And it works. I know that because I took it to the Bullshido Throwdown in Skokie a few years ago and made it to the third round of competition without using anything else. Two submission victories using wristlocks off my back, by the way. That's data, and it was scientific enough for me.
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #65
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Two submission victories using wristlocks off my back, by the way. That's data, and it was scientific enough for me.
That's not scientific at all. But if it is good enough for you, you really ought to go look up one of these IP folks and get them to show you what they are talking about.
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:39 PM   #66
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Thanks for asking- it's because I'm old now. When I was young we had to mix our own martial arts, because there was no UFC to point the way back then. So I have belts in Yoshukai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate, Shao Lama Kung Fu and Judo, plus my Aikido rank. In my late 30's, I liked to train at our local MMA gym, the Academy of Mixed Martial Arts, but now that I'm in my 40's I know I don't have another 20 years of that left in me. Honestly, I don't even want to train as hard as the 20-something UFC wannabes, let alone compete with them.

I want advantages now, and I don't want to work as much to get them. Yoshinkan Aikido is gentle enough that I can train hard into my 60's but still adds legitimate skills to my repertoire. And it works. I know that because I took it to the Bullshido Throwdown in Skokie a few years ago and made it to the third round of competition without using anything else. Two submission victories using wristlocks off my back, by the way. That's data, and it was scientific enough for me.
Well, you said that you started Yoshinkan nine years ago - and the UFC was around then. You're still left with the same position - how can you demand "scientific studies" when you're coming from something that lacks the same? There are certainly IP folks who have taken it out for a spin - just as you have, you're just assuming that there aren't.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:00 PM   #67
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, you said that you started Yoshinkan nine years ago - and the UFC was around then. You're still left with the same position - how can you demand "scientific studies" when you're coming from something that lacks the same? There are certainly IP folks who have taken it out for a spin - just as you have, you're just assuming that there aren't.
I said the UFC wasn't around when I was young. That is true. But I trained that way as long as it was safe and practical for me. I am also not demanding scientific studies- I am saying I'm not going to train IP unless there's more compelling evidence than people saying if you train long enough with somebody who really knows, you may be able to find some subtle benefit that really can't be evidenced.

This is a discussion forum where people offer their opinions and ask questions. Not a forum where everybody is required to agree with each other. If you don't like my version of the truth, you are free to disagree with me, and I don't mind at all. If you have taken IP for a spin and like it, please continue. My statements are not about your personal choices. They are about mine.
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Old 10-19-2013, 05:09 PM   #68
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I said the UFC wasn't around when I was young. That is true. But I trained that way as long as it was safe and practical for me. I am also not demanding scientific studies- I am saying I'm not going to train IP unless there's more compelling evidence than people saying if you train long enough with somebody who really knows, you may be able to find some subtle benefit that really can't be evidenced.

This is a discussion forum where people offer their opinions and ask questions. Not a forum where everybody is required to agree with each other. If you don't like my version of the truth, you are free to disagree with me, and I don't mind at all. If you have taken IP for a spin and like it, please continue. My statements are not about your personal choices. They are about mine.
And again, there was and is no compelling evidence that training in Yoshinkan would benefit you either, not in the way that you phrased it in regards to IP. I'm asking you why you require a higher bar for IP?

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-19-2013, 05:39 PM   #69
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
There are lots of studies about what affects performance in sports (food, biomechanics, training methodologies, psychology, metabolism, genetics...) combat sports included. Martial arts studies about performance are few and far between.

Try this for instance:

-Go to google scholar

-Search: judo performance training

-Search: aikido performance training

-Compare results
I haven't done the searches. I can guess, though, that there's a lot more research done into Judo because there's world and Olympic championships at stake. It matters (at some level) who wins. Think of the money that's sunk into winning in Formula 1 racing. It matters (to those with the deep pockets), so there's a lot of research done. There's quite a bit of physiology, strength, fluid-dynamics, training, sport psychology, nutrition, recovery, materials study that goes into my sport (Rowing) where there's virtually no financial gain available - the money in F-1 must be amazing... Think about it - a steering wheel for those cars costs more than most people's entire car.. Because there's a winner at the end of the day and performance matters.

We don't really measure "performance" in Aikido, so there's not a lot of scientific method in it - no sponsors who need a result, who need to find out the facts - so there's a lot of speculative musing about things like... 'tensegrity' and so on.
Walter
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #70
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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And again, there was and is no compelling evidence that training in Yoshinkan would benefit you either, not in the way that you phrased it in regards to IP. I'm asking you why you require a higher bar for IP?
I tried them both. One worked for me; the other didn't, and I don't have unlimited training time left in my life. I really wanted mystical powers to be true, but that was not my experience. I had doubts about Aikido, too. Had I landed in a more esoteric style, I might be telling this story to a different group of people. But I found Yoshinkan Aikido to be practical and sensible. When asked about Ki, Kancho (Shioda Sensei) would often hold up his car or house key. This was our Founder.

I will keep saying that if there is compelling evidence to give IP a second shot, I will risk it. But based on what's available, it's a bad bet, IMO.

Maybe we can agree on this- I have found some mental constructs to be helpful. "Interrupting Uke's intention" for instance. If you want to call that IT, that's okay with me.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:56 PM   #71
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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I tried them both. One worked for me; the other didn't, and I don't have unlimited training time left in my life. I really wanted mystical powers to be true, but that was not my experience. I had doubts about Aikido, too. Had I landed in a more esoteric style, I might be telling this story to a different group of people. But I found Yoshinkan Aikido to be practical and sensible. When asked about Ki, Kancho (Shioda Sensei) would often hold up his car or house key. This was our Founder.

I will keep saying that if there is compelling evidence to give IP a second shot, I will risk it. But based on what's available, it's a bad bet, IMO.

Maybe we can agree on this- I have found some mental constructs to be helpful. "Interrupting Uke's intention" for instance. If you want to call that IT, that's okay with me.
I was training in Yoshinkan, in Tokyo, when Shioda was alive - although he was quite old and we never had physical contact. Still, I think you might have found some unexpected dimensions to what he was doing - check out his associations with Kodo Horikawa.

In any case - I think that you're still asking for a higher bar for IP than for conventional Aikido. If trying it for yourself was enough for Yoshinkan then shouldn't that be enough for IP?
"Ueshiba sensei always spoke about the gods and the universe, things that nobody could understand, but I was finally able to understand what was behind it"

-Gozo Shioda, in the last years of his life
Best,

Chris

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Old 10-19-2013, 11:07 PM   #72
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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I was training in Yoshinkan, in Tokyo, when Shioda was alive -
Chris, if you were training Yoshinkan Aikido in Tokyo when Gozo Shioda was alive, I will take your word over most people's. If there was someone credible in BF Illinois I might give it another shot, based on you and Cliff's say so.

Things might be different now if I'd had access to the kind of instruction you have had. But I am still very grateful for my local teachers, Paul Huber Sensei, and his predecessor Kit Hathaway Sensei, who have hammered us for 9 years with rigorously painstaking kihon. Whatever I do with it from here will be better because of it. So to answer the question of the thread, "Technique, IMO".

Best,

Bill

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 10-19-2013 at 11:12 PM. Reason: I'm weird about punctuation.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:27 PM   #73
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

Why are we still entertaining conversations about whether iP "works"? If you think it does, train it. If you think it doesn't, either find someone good to show it to you or go away. No one here is responsible for proving anything to you. If you care about your training, you will seek out the best teachers. If you don't, why are we talking to you, again?

I love traditional Aikido waza. It's seductive as hell. But having been introduced to a way to make it really work, in all situations, am I going to walk away from it? I don't think so, regardless of what UFC is doing. This is about making my own practice the best I can, regardless of what anyone else is doing. (And aikido waza, so far as i can tell, isn't going anywhere--it's just getting revitalized.)

so do what works for you. iP is a lot of work, and you still have to learn aikido on top of it, so it will never be for everyone. But quit with the spitballs, they're boring. Now excuse me, I have to go stand in the corner for a half hour.

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Old 10-20-2013, 02:08 AM   #74
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

All I know is after spending most of my life training in the Martial Arts (25 of those years in Aikido) I went out and experienced "Aiki" first hand through both Dan Harden and Akuzawa Minoru of the Aunkai. I am now throwing almost everything I know out the window and focusing almost exclusively on Internal Training.

William Hazen
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:34 AM   #75
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Re: "IP/IT/IS" vs technique?

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All I know is after spending most of my life training in the Martial Arts (25 of those years in Aikido) I went out and experienced "Aiki" first hand through both Dan Harden and Akuzawa Minoru of the Aunkai. I am now throwing almost everything I know out the window and focusing almost exclusively on Internal Training.

William Hazen
That is my view. And then revisit Aikido with new knowledge.

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