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Old 10-16-2013, 11:12 PM   #101
JW
 
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Re: 6 Directions

I'd like to second Budd's sentiment that training should focus on very simple use of ground, in the beginning. Getting carried away with the ideals you ultimately want in your training is dangerous. I think I wasted time when I should have just been pushing walls/bungee cords. Once you have a simple, clean skill, of course you can build on it.. but cheat yourself out of a good foundation, and whatever you end up with is just fancy elaborations of crap. I don't think anyone here would argue against this-- I just wanted to reiterate.

Regarding the decision-making vs conscious-awareness-of-decision stuff, I think it is reasonably clear that often our conscious minds only infer that decisions are made, and when. That's fine but it is beside the point for the topic of this thread. I agree it is something any martial artist should think about - no matter what method you train-- but it isn't quite the point here, see below.

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
As it relates to Jiyu Waza, (IMO) Mu Shin is probably the optimal mindset, and calm observation is second.
I agree with that too. But it is beside the point of this topic.

You could look at it this way: "intent" is a part of the motor system that has to do with the way force (input force, or your own muscles' force) is routed through the joints of the body. You can train it and use it either:
1. as something you volitionally use in martial techniques, i.e. NOT using mushin;
2. as something that is used in a way that is constant, rather than contingent on decisions and circumstance. i.e., a way compatible with "mushin."

Originally, I thought the inclusion of the "desire" stuff in the coffee cup demo was an eloquent way to incorporate a bigger picture into the demo. But it isn't the main point-- if you just sit, then relax, then go to reach for the cup BUT INSTEAD abort the reaching action before you have moved at all, that is enough for the main point. Who makes the decision, when, and why are all beside the point. The point is just that the body has a way to tense something inside, which is independent (separable through practice) from the action of the muscles that will subsequently fire in the reaching task. That "something" is ki, it is controlled by intent, and it can be used for something much cooler than how it is used without internal training, when someone grabs coffee the "regular way."
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:45 PM   #102
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Re: 6 Directions

You mean "intent" in the way that Don Juan explains it to Carlos Castaneda?

"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link."

Or something in the nature of Pranayam, Kundalini, etc.?

How are you using it in a cool way? Got a good demo?

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 10-17-2013 at 05:49 PM. Reason: added questions
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:56 PM   #103
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Re: 6 Directions

Bill... Quick! Scratch your nose.
Don't think about it.

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Old 10-17-2013, 07:48 PM   #104
Janet Rosen
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Bill... Quick! Scratch your nose.
Don't think about it.

LOL! Still do this with my beginning Low Impact students, with the rest of us hanging onto their arms.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:22 AM   #105
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link."
I've seen the Castenada books. Weird stuff. You know, they also talk about "tendon energy." Castenada asks his teacher why they use the term "tendon," wondering if it is the wrong translation, since they talk about areas like the abdomen which are not big on tendons (compared to the limb joints for instance). He doesn't get a very good answer except that yes, that is the right translation.

The quote you provided is pretty big-picturesque and metaphysical, but I think there is a connection from that point of view. Intent controls ki, and ki makes connections between things. Metaphysical musings don't help your training though. There is a much more practical level to deal with, unless we are posting in the "spiritual" section maybe. And I can't talk about the degree to which any such practical side of the Castenada stuff is relevant.

Regarding demonstrations, I'm workin on it! But Ikeda sensei does great demonstrations. As a matter of intro to these videos, I'd like to point out that visualizations of forces, like "imagine water is shooting out of your arm like it is a water hose," or "imagine you are sitting on an inflated balloon" are simply tricks/tools to control intent in a large-scale way. There's no real difference between those types of visualizations and what happens when you "go to reach for a cup but abort the action right before you do it."

Here, Ikeda sensei uses the visualization of playing catch (i.e. intent) to control his body (and his body's connection to his partner) so that his partner falls down. It's something that makes uke move without forcing him against the directions in which he is strong.

Here, he points out that the state of your intent in your core/body is the key to doing another similar type of kuzushi effect, against even more resistant ukes. He explicitly points out that fighting against their strength is different (and less effective) than using this intent-based trick. ("Right place" is the visualization here, rather than playing catch.)
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:19 AM   #106
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Here, he points out that the state of your intent in your core/body is the key to doing another similar type of kuzushi effect, against even more resistant ukes. He explicitly points out that fighting against their strength is different (and less effective) than using this intent-based trick. ("Right place" is the visualization here, rather than playing catch.)
Jonathan,

Ikeda is using a significantly different direction and body movement when he "succeeds" versus when he "fails."

Would he be able to use intent to go against their strength and be as effective? If yes, why don't we see him doing that?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:30 AM   #107
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Re: 6 Directions

On a side note, I'm really getting tired of people posting videos of Sam Chin and Hiroshi Ikeda in place of their own videos.

We are either going to use video or not. You are posting here and presumably engaging in this practice. If you want to post a video depicting some aspect of your practice, make one of yourself.

A swear some posters on AikiWeb have been trying to make a video for 4 or 5 years and can't seem to get it done. It's so simple these days!

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:06 AM   #108
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
On a side note, I'm really getting tired of people posting videos of Sam Chin and Hiroshi Ikeda in place of their own videos.

We are either going to use video or not. You are posting here and presumably engaging in this practice. If you want to post a video depicting some aspect of your practice, make one of yourself.

A swear some posters on AikiWeb have been trying to make a video for 4 or 5 years and can't seem to get it done. It's so simple these days!
At risk of sounding like a broken record, I want to make sure I understand this...

First, you are chastising posters who admit to their inexperience working with internal exercises for not posting videos memorializing their personal development and struggle. All of which, given your personal antagonistic attitude towards the subject, is likely only to be used as the foundation for non-constructive criticism. And you wonder why posters are not sharing their personal training?

Second, Sam Chin and Hiroshi Ikeda both represent their respective training methodologies for internal strength. You want to see the exercises, methodology and effect of internal training, both of these individuals can demonstrate their respective methods. You may criticize the effectiveness of their methodology in disseminating the skills, evidenced by the lack of students confident enough to put forth a video demonstrating their skills. I am unclear- are you criticizing these individuals because you believe their skills are lacking or because they are not competent to disseminate the skills to their students?

You come across as wanting to see something that is less than perfect. If you want to see internal strength, I think looking at the engineers of the material is the best route.

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Old 10-18-2013, 10:41 AM   #109
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Re: 6 Directions

There are other reasons for not wanting to post videos, including not being comfortable posting martial arts stuff on a world-wide internet screen, being concerned about stalking and "challenges" from nutjobs, not wanting to be considered an "authorized representative" of someone else's proprietary material, and even just a desire for what little privacy remains to us in a mass-media world.

I'm sure that a number of us would be willing to meet up with others, in the spirit of goodwill, and demonstrate what we do, because in that instance there is a personal connection with those who are making the inquiry. But posting videos for mass consumption by complete strangers, is not a leap that most care to take.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:10 AM   #110
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Re: 6 Directions

I like the concepts. As I've said, we haven't worked with mental constructs locally, so they're things I'm sounding out here. Bruce Lee used notions of the flowing, crashing, etc, characteristics of water to train for power punches and kicks. So I'm inclined to believe it. I'd like to know how it can be tested, though.

How has the scientific method been applied to it? Has anyone done comparative control tests? What data exists?
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:12 AM   #111
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Bill... Quick! Scratch your nose.
Don't think about it.

Okay, help me play this out, because I'm interested in where this is going: I'm thinking I can't scratch my nose without thinking about it. Unless it itches.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:15 AM   #112
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Re: 6 Directions

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Unless it itches.
You're heading in the right direction. Think out what's happening when your nose itches, and you just scratch it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 11:57 AM   #113
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Re: 6 Directions

Stimulus/response?
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:01 PM   #114
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Jonathan,

Ikeda is using a significantly different direction and body movement when he "succeeds" versus when he "fails."
Yeah, and what is telling him the "right" direction to go in? Prescience? Or does he not have to worry about making the decision because of how he uses his body? If you want to get the direction right every time because you are smart, then fine. I'm dumb so I will use intent to make it easier for me.

There is a sensory aspect to "using ki," which is where the term "ting jin" comes from.

Anyway not only is this off topic (when was the last time we mentioned 6 directions), we're all really sick of people talking about Ikeda's videos so I should shut up, shouldn't I? Everybody here is obviously as good as he is, so why should we discuss videos of exemplars of our training methodology? We should make our own mediocre videos and ignore those who are far ahead of us.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #115
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Yeah, and what is telling him the "right" direction to go in? Prescience? Or does he not have to worry about making the decision because of how he uses his body? If you want to get the direction right every time because you are smart, then fine. I'm dumb so I will use intent to make it easier for me.

There is a sensory aspect to "using ki," which is where the term "ting jin" comes from.

Anyway not only is this off topic (when was the last time we mentioned 6 directions), we're all really sick of people talking about Ikeda's videos so I should shut up, shouldn't I? Everybody here is obviously as good as he is, so why should we discuss videos of exemplars of our training methodology? We should make our own mediocre videos and ignore those who are far ahead of us.
I would still like to know how we measure it. It's much easier to make a case if you have evidence, data or something to that shows the training method improves something. What are the tangible benefits?
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:48 PM   #116
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Re: 6 Directions

I think this is the study from Stanford that most will reference as a primer

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/m...hi-050708.html

Otherwise, I think there's a pretty intentional stance from a number of sources that this stuff has to be felt in person hands on - not in a gong sau challenge way but in a "here's what is meant by unusual strength" kind of manner. I've had some walk-ins come visit me up in Buffalo, NY. I think most people are willing to do a show and tell if you're a genuine seeker rather than trying to force fit an agenda on the encounter.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:43 PM   #117
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Re: 6 Directions

The problem with the Stanford study, is that the grad students could measure only the overt movements the taichi (and, I think, baji) master was doing. There is no way as yet to measure or track the movements of mingmen, dantien, kwas, or the cycling of power from ground-to-ground. It would have been great if they could MRI his brain while he was "firing" intent...
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:15 PM   #118
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Stimulus/response?
You might find the work of Benjamin Libet to be interesting (sorry it's Wiki, but actually not bad articles!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

When you scratch an itchy nose, the volition to move comes from a different part of the brain, a different brain function, than the conscious mind. The conscious mind catches on after the command to scratch has been fired off, but the micro-second timing of it is so fast that we "think" that we consciously made the decision.

When working on IP and aiki, a person actively -and with awareness- activates and manipulates that volitional, non-conscious brain function to activate the processes necessary to generate IP and effect aiki.

Some people suggest that it's mental imagery allowing us to fire off actions, but that's really an extra step, one step removed from the intent/volition itself.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-18-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:37 AM   #119
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Re: 6 Directions

Jon and Jonathan. . . Chill out my AikiWeb friends.

Step back from your keyboards and read what was written in context. You have both completely missed the point.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
On a side note, I'm really getting tired of people posting videos of Sam Chin and Hiroshi Ikeda in place of their own videos.

We are either going to use video or not. You are posting here and presumably engaging in this practice. If you want to post a video depicting some aspect of your practice, make one of yourself.

I swear some posters on AikiWeb have been trying to make a video for 4 or 5 years and can't seem to get it done. It's so simple these days!
The way I read the posts, Jonathan Wong was asked, "How are you [personally] using it in a cool way?"

How can a video of Hiroshi Ikeda possibly show this?

I'm not tired of people discussing Ikeda or Sam Chin videos. When did I ever say that? Please don't mischaracterize my statements. I'm obsessed with aikido and the martial arts. I'll discuss the hell out of anything that anyone posts, and I enjoy when others do the same. I have nothing at all against these guys. I did not criticize them in any way in this thread. Please do not put words in my mouth. And believe me, if I criticize them I would make it clear, because I don't think anyone is off limits.

Not everything or everyone that challenges you in life is antagonistic.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:41 AM   #120
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Yeah, and what is telling him the "right" direction to go in? Prescience? Or does he not have to worry about making the decision because of how he uses his body? If you want to get the direction right every time because you are smart, then fine. I'm dumb so I will use intent to make it easier for me.

There is a sensory aspect to "using ki," which is where the term "ting jin" comes from.
You posted the video. You could've just answered the questions.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:25 AM   #121
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
When you scratch an itchy nose, the volition to move comes from a different part of the brain, a different brain function, than the conscious mind. The conscious mind catches on after the command to scratch has been fired off, but the micro-second timing of it is so fast that we "think" that we consciously made the decision....Some people suggest that it's mental imagery allowing us to fire off actions, but that's really an extra step, one step removed from the intent/volition itself.
This makes some sense. I am taking it that this is in pursuit of being quicker in your response to an attack. Surely it needs to be balanced against some kind of oversight, though, even if it's just through conditioning because it can be hacked. Let me explain with an example:

My pug totally owns me. She sits next to my chair at the table and begs for food, so I keep a pile of tiny treats and make her sit quietly before she gets one. My wife has noted that Abby can whine and jump up, and if I'm distracted or concentrating on something else, I will dish out without realizing it.

By the same mechanism, if I'm not carefully observing (as opposed to making real time decisions about techniques, which is not optimal) it seems like I'd be vulnerable to mistakes in judgement with fakes, feints or use of force.

Not that we're doomed to make those mistakes, probably something we can train for. What do you think?
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #122
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Re: 6 Directions

I would agree that not everything that challenges you is antagonistic-- in fact I would even go a step further and say that NONE of the the things that are actually challenging can be. Only attitude can be antagonistic. I love these forums for the communication that comes out of lack of agreement. The above exchange with Bill Danosky is an example. I also love it when Szczepan or Demetrio pipe up. Even with very short posts they express discrete points that further the discussion. Michael, your post #106 looked like you were going to do similar, and I appreciated that.

Loose ends:
1. The context of Bill's question to me in post #102 was the previous 10 or so posts, the underlying theme of which could be summarized, "What is it you guys mean by intent?" You can even see that sentiment in the first sentence of 102 ("You mean 'intent' in the way that..."). So if you look at what I posted in context, it is indeed possible for me to further the conversation by using video of an exemplar. I don't have a video of me right now-- so my choice was to leave Bill's question hanging, or address it partially, and I chose the latter. Actually I think Ikeda's videos that I linked to answer both of the key points of this part of the thread: what is intent (as opposed to ideas dealing with desire and consciousness), and what is "cool" about how you can use it? I don't think my personal abilities are of more important in this particular discussion that answering those two questions. If my abilities were the main point and those other 2 points were not important to Bill or anyone else - then yes, me linking to those 2 videos would quite clearly be worthy of contention.
2. It's not "simple" for me to decide to make a video of something that I am still working on. If I beleive in my work then I won't sell it short by posting a half-assed video of it. If it looks like crap, is it because the concept is not good, or because I did it poorly? It might be more simple to get to that stage if I had a more regular partner practice schedule, or even a partner for a video itself. Or a practice space to use at my leisure. Then yes it might be more simple.
3. I didn't intent post #114 to be cryptic. The question is the first sentence. Two possible answers are provided. I offer one of these as a possibility, but discount it as far as my own practice. I then further emphasize my favored answer by the sentence set apart by blank lines. There is not anything intended to be left unasnwered in that post. I hardly think anyone would want me to be even more verbose than I already am, which is the reason for brevity when I think I can get away with it.
4. Although the rest of #114 is full of verbal irony, I think the information content is basically the same as much of this more verbose post... I'm sorry for expressing attitude when information will do. Does this post make more sense?
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:15 AM   #123
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Jon and Jonathan. . . Chill out my AikiWeb friends.

Step back from your keyboards and read what was written in context. You have both completely missed the point.

The way I read the posts, Jonathan Wong was asked, "How are you [personally] using it in a cool way?"

How can a video of Hiroshi Ikeda possibly show this?

I'm not tired of people discussing Ikeda or Sam Chin videos. When did I ever say that? Please don't mischaracterize my statements. I'm obsessed with aikido and the martial arts. I'll discuss the hell out of anything that anyone posts, and I enjoy when others do the same. I have nothing at all against these guys. I did not criticize them in any way in this thread. Please do not put words in my mouth. And believe me, if I criticize them I would make it clear, because I don't think anyone is off limits.

Not everything or everyone that challenges you in life is antagonistic.
I think context here is everything. Your questions has been asked and answered, your continued pursuit of it is curious. I think my point was to ask why are you are criticizing those who have not posted a video of themselves, citing the ease in which a video can be created, but disregarding the quality of the content. Those who have not posted their videos (myself included) have cited, among a number of reasons, their personal discomfort in sharing their application for reasons of competency.

In lieu of a personal video, the posters have been sharing the training exercises they have inherited from proponents of internal training methods. These videos show the exercises the posters are working on. I asked for clarification because in continuing to ask to see personal videos of the same exercises, you are asking to see videos that will almost certainly be less helpful than the original videos. It seems your frustration is directed at the timeline during which you feel someone should have posted their expertise in aiki for your consumption. To me, that left 2 major valid criticisms: either you have a problem with aiki, as expressed by Sam Chin or Hiroshi Ikeda; Or, you have a problem with the competency in which these two people disseminate aiki instruction, as expressed by the lack of students willing to demonstrate their aiki. It sounds like you believe these guys have internal power, or at least do not have issue with their claim they have internal power. So that brings us to criticism 2.

For me, I spoke to Ikeda Sensei a few years ago about this topic because I felt previously his instruction (language barrier aside) was less than clear; Ikeda sensei dramatically changed his instruction to be more inclusive of aiki training and he has found new methods to disseminate the content. Both have had a positive change on his instruction, in my opinion. I told him so. But, aiki has a learning curve that exceeds your timeline. You're not gonna see expert videos on this stuff for a while.
Gleason, Ledyard... Hell, Ledyard just put up a online library that you can view on your computer. All these guys are sharing their exercises if you ask. They all have approaches of maximizing the training time frame to integrate this stuff into aikido.

This thread began with an inclusive request to share information about a specific exercise, yet somehow reached a point of criticism about things not shared. I continue to be amazed by the burden of proof placed upon proponents of aiki. I perceive that we pursue this topic with the vigor to invalidate a point, as illustrated by your criticism of excluded content, rather than discussion of the existing content.

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Old 10-21-2013, 01:20 PM   #124
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Re: 6 Directions

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I continue to be amazed by the burden of proof placed upon proponents of aiki.
A smart guy once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Maybe he wasn't so smart.

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Old 10-21-2013, 01:25 PM   #125
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Re: 6 Directions

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
A smart guy once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Maybe he wasn't so smart.
That was a reasonable argument when people like Dan weren't teaching openly around the world (I would have made it myself) - now, not so much.

Best,

Chris

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