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Old 10-04-2013, 03:57 PM   #51
Mark Uttech
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:49 PM   #52
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
In Japan, they have a superstition that if you think of a monkey when you take medicine, the medicine will not work. Of course, that makes it impossible not to think of a monkey as soon as you come down with something. You definitely can't use thoughts to get rid of thinking.
This demonstrates that you already understand the rationale behind the meditation I was speaking about at the beginning of this thread. I was trying to point out that in my experience "doing stuff" is another thing you cannot use to get rid of thinking (which you cannot do anyway, but whatever).

I wish to suggest again, as humbly as possible, that trying to be present, any kind of self talk, and concentrating on your breath all consist of using thoughts and doing stuff. You MAY, like me, find those methods inadequate to the task of dropping you into the present and making your thoughts pass by like fluffy clouds.

I was suggesting the old and musty strategy of "doing nothing" instead. It is attractive and unique in that it is wholly the opposite of "doing something", and you might find that sitting down and doing nothing is kickass.

Now I know what you are thinking: You once overheard an abbot saying something contradictory to this. Doing nothing sounds like it won't produce the results you demand. Doing nothing won't let you do the things you were already going to do and also let you claim that you meditated today. That Ben guy is aggressive and demonstrates a lack of psychological development consistent with people who meditate wrong.

All that stuff is doubtless true, so try it at your own risk. Since taking on the nonpractice I find that I go nowhere, get nothing done, and can expect no results. Now that is my cup of tea, and I wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

Last edited by bkedelen : 10-04-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:07 PM   #53
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

In meditation, there is practice, and nonpractice, right? Mahayana Buddhism is considered to have some authority, and it teaches both a contemplative style, where one really wrestles with some mental issue or condition. And a type of "calm abiding" meditation, where one transcends their thoughts and realizes "they" (the thoughts) are not "you".

I wouldn't argue against any type of meditation. Unless you are tuning into "the voices", they are all healthy. Hopefully I haven't, at least. Remind me what we were arguing about then, and I'll see if it still makes sense. Something about hurting people, maybe?
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:53 AM   #54
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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There is only one way to know if your aikido works in the case of a real attack, and that is to hang around in a shady part of town until someone attacks you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no one in this thread has done that, and that therefore that a style vs. style effectiveness argument has nowhere to go but down.
Unfortunately, in my work I deal with everyday people who have been involved in attacks, domestics disputes, and many other unpleasant situations. One does not have to hang out with shady characters or the bad area of town to experience violence that's in your face. Certainly, that can increase your chances, but it is not necessary. Therefore, IMO one cannot afford to not at least strive to make one's training as realistic and practical as possible. That is not to say that one's training has to be totally focused on that or that is all you should think about, but it should be a significant aspect.

On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.

However, unless one completely out of touch, its not that difficult to see how physical conflict happens in the 21st century (potentially to anyone anywhere) and how traditional approaches and techniques may have to be tweaked or modified to make them work. Moreover, it sometimes just comes down to martial intent on the Uke's and Nage's part and that is very difficult if not impossible, to teach.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:11 PM   #55
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Unfortunately, in my work I deal with everyday people who have been involved in attacks, domestics disputes, and many other unpleasant situations. One does not have to hang out with shady characters or the bad area of town to experience violence that's in your face. Certainly, that can increase your chances, but it is not necessary. Therefore, IMO one cannot afford to not at least strive to make one's training as realistic and practical as possible. That is not to say that one's training has to be totally focused on that or that is all you should think about, but it should be a significant aspect.

On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.

However, unless one completely out of touch, its not that difficult to see how physical conflict happens in the 21st century (potentially to anyone anywhere) and how traditional approaches and techniques may have to be tweaked or modified to make them work. Moreover, it sometimes just comes down to martial intent on the Uke's and Nage's part and that is very difficult if not impossible, to teach.
Can I be first?

"That is not true. The Emperor's clothes are beautiful and regal."

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 10-08-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:52 PM   #56
Anjisan
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Can I be first?

"That is not true. The Emperor's clothes are beautiful and regal."
To teach martial intent? It is a challenge to be sure. It really seems to come from within like having heart. It seems that one can teach someone to "act" the part but to put substance behind it is not easy if that is not who one really is IMO.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:12 PM   #57
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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To teach martial intent? It is a challenge to be sure. It really seems to come from within like having heart. It seems that one can teach someone to "act" the part but to put substance behind it is not easy if that is not who one really is IMO.
Yeah, violence of action tends to determine outcome. It's the fire superiority of single combat.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:54 PM   #58
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...
If you meet them head on, you will find that they tend to move out of the way.

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Old 10-09-2013, 06:29 AM   #59
Anjisan
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Smile Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Onegaishimasu, I'm just practicing getting off the line, if that means anything...
Mark I remember hearing that Saotome sensei also taught holding the center line, not necessarily conceding it, but not clashing either.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #60
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Sometimes we "displace" uke from the space he's occupying. Like at the end of Irimi Nage Ichi (our linear type) when we make that last cross step behind uke, we wind up standing where he was and he is of course, laying a few feet away (if we performed our zanshin like we're supposed to). But if we don't get our shita hara under uke's it's effect is reduced.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:12 PM   #61
kivawolfspeaker
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

I think that everyone, unless they have a seriously misfiring survival instinct, has martial intent within them. What's tricky is activating that instinct during training, especially in a society where the moral standard is it's never ok to kill ones own kind under any circumstances for any reason at all.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:53 PM   #62
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Jen Wilcher wrote: View Post
I think that everyone, unless they have a seriously misfiring survival instinct, has martial intent within them. What's tricky is activating that instinct during training, especially in a society where the moral standard is it's never ok to kill ones own kind under any circumstances for any reason at all.
What society is that?

I know Madison is cool, but...
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:53 PM   #63
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Sometimes we "displace" uke from the space he's occupying. Like at the end of Irimi Nage Ichi (our linear type) when we make that last cross step behind uke, we wind up standing where he was and he is of course, laying a few feet away (if we performed our zanshin like we're supposed to). But if we don't get our shita hara under uke's it's effect is reduced.
That's good - like it. If you want to chase aiki, you have to do this. Try to do it right from the beginning of the technique and to displace uke throughout, but without clashing too much. In this sense, tenkan does now serve us well, so I now believe. nor does avoidance.

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Old 10-09-2013, 06:37 PM   #64
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Mark I remember hearing that Saotome sensei also taught holding the center line, not necessarily conceding it, but not clashing either.
log bridge excercise. you irimi and make uke tenkan.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:56 PM   #65
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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What society is that?

I know Madison is cool, but...
Some people live in Western "Lala Land" and think that peace qnd harmony means no one kills anyone period. Personally, I think peace and harmony simply means no unnecessary killing. With Aikido being about peace and harmony some people come in having certain misconceptions about what this means, thus getting "martial intent" out of them can be difficult.

"Die biting the throat." #12 of The Gnoll Credo
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:17 PM   #66
Anjisan
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log bridge excercise. you irimi and make uke tenkan.
Marubashi!
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:10 PM   #67
valjean
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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On this forum and at seminars, I have often hear from a segment of the Aikido community that does not believe that self-defense is necessary. Besides, if one does include it, that it can't really be used against someone whose is trained or street experienced (some thugs really are) or it seems implied that if one does have that as a point of emphasis that you somehow forsake it as a means of self-improvement to become a better human being, marriage counseling, working with troubled youth and just plain having fun! It would seem that there is this fork in the training road that its either martial and that's all one can focus on or its the softer side of self-improvement and metaphorical uses. I still have yet to hear a convincing argument on why one can't and shouldn't have both sides as parts of one's training path. To be sure, " realistic" is subjective and is an approximation on a continuum.
I have much respect for your point of view, and I too would like to believe that there is a "middle way." I also see wisdom in the observation that people who don't train against seriously committed attacks may be ill-prepared to defend them. Speaking on behalf of fellow (pre-dan) klutzes, however, I sometimes feel in aikido technique classes that I'm treading water simply in trying to follow all the mechanics of what the teacher is teaching. Making uke into a 200 pound gorilla who is genuinely trying to break nage's arm (or nage's neck) may be crucial for improving practical skill, given a nage who already has a fundamental grasp of the mechanics. In my case, though, I am not convinced it would help to me to achieve better clarity in comprehending technique.

Most of the practical defensive instruction I've experienced in aikido has focused more on movement and alignment and blending against the rampaging gorilla, rather than trying to execute specific techniques. Sensei is always careful to point out the atemi possibilities, as well as the aikido techniques, that open up once given correct positioning in concert with attacker. The former tend to offer options for a karate-style response, even assuming that one misses or screws up an aikido technique that could otherwise be a good fit.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:03 AM   #68
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

You may just be noticing the big differences between styles that come into light here on Aikiweb. Yoshinkan Aikido, as an example, is dramatically different in it's focus from many other styles. We are very technique oriented, and obsessive about form. Technique X = Step 1, step 2, step 3, and so on. Exactly like this, every single time. Perfect kamae. Posture = power. A certain pivot might be 95 degrees; not 100. You see where I'm going. Less of an emphasis on movement, more on optiming every step. Kancho was like that. His transitions were sometimes described as "explosively locking into position."

Our ukemi is different, too. When someone is learning a technique, Uke may be largely making the movements for Shite. Less so, as it's committed to memory and Shite is polishing his or her execution. By the time we're just drilling it, Uke is not giving anything away. It's fun. My 24-year-old, ni kyu son and I absolutely crush each other, and laugh about it like idiots.

I have never trained in an MMA gym where anybody was trying to break anyone's arm (or neck). It definitely shouldn't be happening in an Aikido dojo. I happen to like the 200 pound gorillas, but they should know the difference between training, jiyu waza and randori. Or learn it the hard way.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #69
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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I have much respect for your point of view, and I too would like to believe that there is a "middle way." I also see wisdom in the observation that people who don't train against seriously committed attacks may be ill-prepared to defend them. Speaking on behalf of fellow (pre-dan) klutzes, however, I sometimes feel in aikido technique classes that I'm treading water simply in trying to follow all the mechanics of what the teacher is teaching. Making uke into a 200 pound gorilla who is genuinely trying to break nage's arm (or nage's neck) may be crucial for improving practical skill, given a nage who already has a fundamental grasp of the mechanics. In my case, though, I am not convinced it would help to me to achieve better clarity in comprehending technique.

Most of the practical defensive instruction I've experienced in aikido has focused more on movement and alignment and blending against the rampaging gorilla, rather than trying to execute specific techniques. Sensei is always careful to point out the atemi possibilities, as well as the aikido techniques, that open up once given correct positioning in concert with attacker. The former tend to offer options for a karate-style response, even assuming that one misses or screws up an aikido technique that could otherwise be a good fit.
Modifying your Aikido techniques, if self-defense is one of your goals of training (which I would certainly hope that it would be as well as cross-training to bring in other compatible techniques (big fan of Escrima/Kali myself) will come if you are conscious about it, but the mindset at least can be part of your training now.

A side point is that ultimately as far a Nage goes-the ultimate goal IMO is to ultimately transcend "techniques" per se and thus, to be in the moment. You will know when these moments occur because you wont recognize what you just did, probably others wont either and if you were asked to do it again you wouldn't quite know how because that response was as unique as the attack. Sure at time a recognizable techniques will show itself without you consciously looking to apply it but the higher level is you don't know what you just did. I guess that would be the Path Beyond Thought. Anyway, I remember Saotome sensei demonstrating a technique at a seminar in Chicago and the Uke would attack say 4 times and there would often give at three distinct responses because he was in the moment and not forcing a technique that wasn't there. He eventually got the attacks he needed of course but the point was profound to me as a young Aikidoka.

This martial mindset is not just applicable to Nage but to Uke as well. It is my belief that a big factor in determining how far we can go in our Aikido abilities is determined by those that take Ukemi for us. In other words, Ukes who give committed attacks, when permissible non-traditional attacks, have an "attacker" mindset you know? They get into their character and play it well! Besides, I've been told that one's Ukemi is the first thing to go so do it with gusto while your body allows!
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