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Old 10-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #101
Adam Huss
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
You come up with some gems.

Ankle pick is a great counter for a sloppy Nikkyo, too. Takes the pressure off and works like a charm. You just fake like it worked and stand back up with his foot in your hand. Or a handful of dogi cuff.

Anybody ever do a Shiho Nage on someone's leg? Never seen it done, but that might be a good time.
My friend and I were playing with a leg shihonage last week and we lost interest before we were able to get it to work. I was practicing kick defense for an upcoming test...like two days before the test...so it didn't take much for us to abandon fooling around with it.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:36 PM   #102
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I'm trying to find a video for you. Tell us about your fancy nikkyo in the meantime. It's just a discussion, so you don't have to be a Shihan to offer something.
I am lousy at explaining this, but bear with me. Starting with katate tori hansha, step hantai tenkan and use your cross hand to break the grip like you are about to do an ikkyo. As you start to turn uke's arm over, use the same side hand to lock your thumb underneath uke's thumb. Move directly in to uke and spin your arm underneath the uke's elbow so you are standing side by side, with uke's elbow locked against your rib, and just lean both your hands on the back of uke's hand and pull back. The lock is solid and puts you in a good escort position if you just want to walk someone out the door. Plus I've yet to find anyone who can weasel out of it, no matter how flexible their wrists are. I usually teach it from that attack, but it works even nicer from yokomen uchi. I love the economy of movement with it.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:05 AM   #103
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i had folks cranking on my wrist, elbows and so on. some even tore my shoulder. but folks did that, never got my center. then there are folks whose nikkyo and sankyo so gentle that you just have no choice and your center broken the whole time. this video is one of those gentle folks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hg_o...EC46C5073AE044 that i had my hands on. Mary Heiny's nikkyo also very nice and gentle, but she also had at least 3 atemi on you before the technique was over. i really don't care for folks who crank on my wrist with both of their hands which allow me to drop fast and go for groin shot or kick to their knees.
Hi Phi,
Watched the video . Endo Senseis Uke?? Whats his name? I have met him before. San Diego if my memory serves me well. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:49 AM   #104
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Ashley Hemsath wrote: View Post
..Starting with katate tori hansha, step hantai tenkan and use your cross hand to break the grip like you are about to do an ikkyo. As you start to turn uke's arm over, use the same side hand to lock your thumb underneath uke's thumb. Move directly in to uke and spin your arm underneath the uke's elbow so you are standing side by side, with uke's elbow locked against your rib, and just lean both your hands on the back of uke's hand and pull back. The lock is solid and puts you in a good escort position if you just want to walk someone out the door...
Does it look similar to this at the end)?


Pretty sure we call it Renko Ho, or Gooseneck comealong (although I think it actually means "arresting technique"). The application would be like you would fake a "hammer lock" from the side/rear. Uke, and most people will pull their arm out and you just scoop it up, right into Renko Ho. Am I getting it?
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:54 AM   #105
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Pretty sure we call it Renko Ho, or Gooseneck comealong (although I think it actually means "arresting technique"). The application would be like you would fake a "hammer lock" from the side/rear. Uke, and most people will pull their arm out and you just scoop it up, right into Renko Ho. Am I getting it?
Close, but nage's arm winds up a little more on top and to the side, instead of on the bottom. I'd love to be sure to have the proper name for the technique.

Thanks!

--Ashley
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:36 PM   #106
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

It's not a very good picture, but that is Shite's arm on the bottom and Uke's fingers pointing down. If it helps, uke seems to have black sleeves and Shite is wearing short sleeves. It's hard to see uke's arm, but it is against Shite's ribs, like you mentioned. Is that it?
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:45 AM   #107
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

I am learning that there are a couple sorts of hurting in aikido. Nikkyo is an excellent example of this dichotomy.

There is the nikkyo where nage is twisting and squeezing and wringing the shit out of uke's wrist. Iit hurts like a son of a bitch, it can even injure uke, but it does not break uke's structure down and uke can find the place to resist, absorb, reverse, or neutralize the technique.

The nikkyo I hope to learn before I die is a little different. The emphasis is not on pain compliance, but on kuzushi. The nikkyo is applied in a way such that uke loses their balance in such a way that they fall into the nikkyo, they put it on themselves with their bodyweight This makes a very strong, fast feedback loop, and this nikkyo goes from being just about kuzushi, immediately through any mere idea of simple "I'm gonna hurt you unless you do what I want you to" pain compliance, to an agony of having no structure, no balance, and this weird, white-hot inescapable sensation that is just a dozen notches up from pain.

The first nikkyo hurts, but that's about it. The second nikkyo destroys uke's structure, and oh by the way hurts a bit, in a way that locks up and hurts more than just the wrist, and there's not a damn thing uke can do about it.

The difference to my noobish mind is that the nage doing the first nikkyo is doing it in a way that sends the forces into the wrist, and then into the uke's center so that uke's legs, pelvis, center, spine, shoulder and arm can all absorb a little bit of the discomfort, and all the joints have some degree of freedom of movement. The second nikkyo looks much the same, but the energy put into the wrist is brought in front of uke, toward a front "third leg" that causes uke to fall forward into the technique.

This seems to me to be a concrete example of using uke's energy against them.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #108
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Try taking his words absolutely literally and have them affect your ukemi? They really couldn't be more clear, but IME, people push back all the time even when they claim they aren't.
Yup. I'm not being cryptic at all. I'm being pretty literal.

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Old 10-09-2013, 09:52 AM   #109
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
The nikkyo I hope to learn before I die is a little different. The emphasis is not on pain compliance, but on kuzushi.
It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.

I knew I had met my (then new) teacher when he could not only "do" it to me however and whenever he wanted, but could also clearly explain it and and teach ME to do it.

I taught the idea behind it (on a *very* basic level) to a visiting lady in about 1 or 2 hours using 2 movements from one of our 'kata.' We played with them all night, and she picked it up quite quickly.

At the end, I did "nikyo" with her. She looked puzzled and said it didn't feel like I had done it correctly because it didn't hurt. I asked her to move her feet and she found she couldn't. I asked her to let go and she found she couldn't. Then I asked her, "If I own your entire system, why do I need to hurt you?" She broke down in tears.

The lady in question had *very* flexible wrists and was used to the men in her dojo cranking on her joints in order to make the technique work. Apparently, realizing that all the pain and injury was unnecessary caused a strong emotional release. I let her cry and said, "I understand." Then we, as Jun might say, got back to training.

I don't know if she ever trained again once she returned home, but she did write our dojo a nice thank you note for the training time. She is a credit to her teacher.

Last edited by mjhacker : 10-09-2013 at 10:04 AM.

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Old 10-09-2013, 10:08 AM   #110
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'd love to get together w/ you, Tarik, Chuck, etc...it's darn hard for me to get to Bay Area or to Tarik's unless I'm going to stay put in the area for a few days, which means considerable advance planning....but am very much open to aiming for it!
Next time I get to Tarik's, let's see if we can make a plan to get you on the mats. It's been far too long.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #111
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
How do you teach them that, though? I'm assuming there's more to it that just explaining those words to them, but I'm wondering what the teaching looks like in practice, if they aren't actually dealing with pain when they're training. Is it like, they are taught and practice not pushing back and the goal is to make it enough of an automatic habit that it they do encounter pain, they already have the right habit of how to respond? Or there is occasionally some pain, it's just very mild, but it's enough that they can try out ways of responding and learn the correct response that works and cement it into the automatic part of their brain? Basically, if they don't encounter pain when they're training, how do you prevent the panic response when they do encounter pain, where they get surprised and respond in a way that makes it worse? Or have I misunderstood what's meant by not causing pain?
Excellent question.

It's actually kind of like acquiring a foreign language. It's best done in the country where it's used all the time so you can spend every moment swimming in it. In other words, my sad attempts at explaining it on the internet are ineffective when compared to spending 30 minutes on the mats would be. Once you have that physical context, the words will make a lot more sense. Without it, they aren't of much use. The best way to learn this is to find someone who has the "stuff" and plug into them as often as possible.

Earlier, I said "Don't push back." I take this to heart. Literally. I don't want to fight your technique with physical strength (unless I have a specific lesson or experiment in mind). If you push me, I turn. If you pull me, I enter. I never want to push back or try to stop you with muscular force (i.e. "resist"). I've worked for quite a while to get that monkey-brain-level instinct to push back out of my system. It isn't completely gone by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a little more under control now than it was.

If I shove you, what is your natural response? Likely, it will be to push back (resist). That response might work if you're stronger or have superior position, but it ceases to make sense if the "push" is a knife to the chest or a finger to the eye. This said, how can you, in the 'heat of the moment,' decide to change how your body is going to respond on an almost subconscious, cellular level? You can't. It has to be part of your training in everything that you do so that it becomes the new you. You can't dabble. It's in how you train every moment, how you open doors, how you play with a puppy, how you make a peanut butter and jelly sammich... There are no tricks. There are no "moves." There is only a reprogrammed you.

Quote:
Mr. Miyagi wrote:
Walk on road, hmmm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, [squish] get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so"... [squish] just like grape. Understand?
We teach this idea of not fighting... not pushing back... from day one. It's ingrained in our approach to teaching people to receive force with their bodies and emotions (i.e. ukemi). Water doesn't fight... it flows and finds the cracks. But, if everyone (and I mean everyone) you train with isn't on the same page (at their respective levels), you may be doomed to failure while attempting to learn this.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:48 PM   #112
Krystal Locke
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.

I knew I had met my (then new) teacher when he could not only "do" it to me however and whenever he wanted, but could also clearly explain it and and teach ME to do it.

I taught the idea behind it (on a *very* basic level) to a visiting lady in about 1 or 2 hours using 2 movements from one of our 'kata.' We played with them all night, and she picked it up quite quickly.

At the end, I did "nikyo" with her. She looked puzzled and said it didn't feel like I had done it correctly because it didn't hurt. I asked her to move her feet and she found she couldn't. I asked her to let go and she found she couldn't. Then I asked her, "If I own your entire system, why do I need to hurt you?" She broke down in tears.

The lady in question had *very* flexible wrists and was used to the men in her dojo cranking on her joints in order to make the technique work. Apparently, realizing that all the pain and injury was unnecessary caused a strong emotional release. I let her cry and said, "I understand." Then we, as Jun might say, got back to training.

I don't know if she ever trained again once she returned home, but she did write our dojo a nice thank you note for the training time. She is a credit to her teacher.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:38 PM   #113
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.
Judging by some of the words you use (e.g. "sweet spots" and "subtle"), it sounds like you're on your way. I'm interested in seeing where this takes you.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:50 PM   #114
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.
Maybe you have mentioned this before, but I'm wondering if there's an event behind your Aikido renaissance, so to speak? It looks like you've been around since 2004, but are now referring to reprogramming and worrying about having to abandon the whole project. Aikido schools, traditions, philosophies differ widely. Even the nomenclature is different. You've probably noticed how advice that's good for some may be terrible for others, depending on how they train.

Has something changed in your outlook? Switched dojos or styles recently?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:39 PM   #115
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
The great thing is that I actually DO have a couple folk at home who can teach this very well. Now I just have to freaking learn from them. And, I have access to several other people who also have it.

I am learning that I dont have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My experience with aikido so far leads well into what I am trying to learn now. I am having to reprogram some stuff, mostly "footwork" and entry angles. That's proving to be pretty tough, but I'm sure it will come along. Mostly, since I am learning new things, I am coming in way too big and missing the sweet spots. I've never been subtle. If a tack nailer will do nicely, I'm grabbing the sledge. Nobody can accuse me of having any sensitivity.
Ahh, I've been on the mat with you within the past year...you ain't THAT insensitive and you are on the right track for sure!

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:50 PM   #116
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
It's out there if you really want it. You just need to find someone who can do it and can teach you how to do it. This, unfortunately, may be a harder task than actually learning how to do it. That said, learning how to do this requires a complete reprogramming of everything you do. You can't just learn 1 'trick' and leave everything else the same. It doesn't work that way.
Just wanted to pop in for a second. I think I have an idea of what you've been talking about, but I have a new entry in my training journal to have one of you guys do this to me next time I'm on the mat with one of you. Lord, I love this stuff. But it's so much better in person. That tends to wipe away all the grey fog and BS pretty darned quickly.

Cool stuff and carry on...

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Old 10-09-2013, 11:30 PM   #117
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

I have greater access to the people who are shaping my aikido than I did back in the day. I know more advanced practitioners than I did. I have much broader perspective than I did 20 years ago. I'm past (sort of) the rote learning of techniques and am in a place where I can do analysis of the art in a context a little bigger than just waza. I have frequently put myself in situations where my aikido has to work, good times, that.

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Maybe you have mentioned this before, but I'm wondering if there's an event behind your Aikido renaissance, so to speak? It looks like you've been around since 2004, but are now referring to reprogramming and worrying about having to abandon the whole project. Aikido schools, traditions, philosophies differ widely. Even the nomenclature is different. You've probably noticed how advice that's good for some may be terrible for others, depending on how they train.

Has something changed in your outlook? Switched dojos or styles recently?
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:17 AM   #118
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I have frequently put myself in situations where my aikido has to work, good times, that.
Do tell!
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:29 AM   #119
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

I do event security. I stop fights. Aikido is very nice for that.

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Do tell!
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:27 AM   #120
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I do event security. I stop fights. Aikido is very nice for that.
Isn't it, though? It's great having softer options that you can scale up when you need to. Back me up, here- Ude Garami rocks. Renko Ho, Ikka Jo and- believe it or not- Sokumen Irimi Nage, too. Hiji Shime, also. I could keep going, but I'll restrain my enthusiasm. Joe Thambu Sensei bounced in Australian bars for 20 years. This stuff is pretty well worked out.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:17 PM   #121
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
Excellent question.

Earlier, I said "Don't push back." I take this to heart. Literally. I don't want to fight your technique with physical strength (unless I have a specific lesson or experiment in mind). If you push me, I turn. If you pull me, I enter. I never want to push back or try to stop you with muscular force (i.e. "resist"). I've worked for quite a while to get that monkey-brain-level instinct to push back out of my system. It isn't completely gone by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a little more under control now than it was.
Thanks, this I'm familiar with. My question was specifically about a reaction to pain. Someone (I've lost track now if it was you or someone else) made a statement that they never used any pain when training (unless I musunderstood that comment).

That led me to ponder how we react to pain. It's sometimes very automatic, much more of a flinch response than a conscious strategy. So I was pondering if it's possible to reprogram a flinch response without directly practicing it - i.e., if training a very reliable and automatic response to non-painful pressures and tensions will translate into using that response instinctively when there's actual pain. Or if it's better to at least occasionally practice responding to actual pain (Perhaps a more slowly applied pain? Or a smaller one? ) to be sure your reflex 'don't resist' response is programmed as a response to pain as well.

I do find many joint locks painful at least some of the time, so I've had lots of opportunities to practice moving with it instead of against it when something suddenly hurts. So I don't have personal experience with a scenario where someone has trained for a while but never or rarely felt them applied in a painful way and then suddenly one day they receive a painful one, and I don't know one way or another what their reflex response is likely to be, but am curious...
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:15 PM   #122
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

It isn't about techniques for me. It is movement principles, and applied physics. Not being a yoshinkan practitioner, I couldn't tell you about the specific techniques you name unless I bothered to translate them into aikikai speak. I can tell you that it is important in my line of work to let technique flow from my need to get control over the overall situation.

I look at angles and timing for entry and for neutralization. I look at natural responses to specific physical stimulus. I look at removing people's weapons by controlling range and body positions, and controlling their center without allowing my center to be controlled. I look at locking joint chains rather than getting a technique. If a technique happens, it happens. I dont care which one I use to light someone up and get them out of the door. It just has to be available, effective, and ultimately not too damaging to the person I bounce. Defensible in court.

I dont scale my training up in my job, I actually scale it way down. It usually takes very little to get an untrained person off balance and under control, and they usually have never felt the discomfort of a joint lock or comealong. Technique generally blows a bouncee up so far that they cannot listen to me and do as I ask. It is really hard for someone to stop fighting when I am reaching into their sensory system and fucking everything right up. They cant hear me telling them to stop what they're doing. If I can soften up to where they're just on the comfortable side of the line, I can persuade them to listen, and I still have room to break them down if I have to.

On the mat, I am dealing with people who can effectively resist my technique unless I do it just right, and put a lot of correctness juice into it. Maybe that's why I am an ass on the mat.

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Isn't it, though? It's great having softer options that you can scale up when you need to. Back me up, here- Ude Garami rocks. Renko Ho, Ikka Jo and- believe it or not- Sokumen Irimi Nage, too. Hiji Shime, also. I could keep going, but I'll restrain my enthusiasm. Joe Thambu Sensei bounced in Australian bars for 20 years. This stuff is pretty well worked out.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:19 PM   #123
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
So I was pondering if it's possible to reprogram a flinch response without directly practicing it - i.e., if training a very reliable and automatic response to non-painful pressures and tensions will translate into using that response instinctively when there's actual pain. Or if it's better to at least occasionally practice responding to actual pain (Perhaps a more slowly applied pain? Or a smaller one? ) to be sure your reflex 'don't resist' response is programmed as a response to pain as well..
GASP. But, but... but...

Am I understanding you want to reprogram YOUR flinch response not to resist pain?

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 10-10-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:45 PM   #124
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
I dont scale my training up in my job, I actually scale it way down. It usually takes very little to get an untrained person off balance and under control, and they usually have never felt the discomfort of a joint lock or comealong. Technique generally blows a bouncee up so far that they cannot listen to me and do as I ask. It is really hard for someone to stop fighting when I am reaching into their sensory system and fucking everything right up. They cant hear me telling them to stop what they're doing. If I can soften up to where they're just on the comfortable side of the line, I can persuade them to listen, and I still have room to break them down if I have to.

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Old 10-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #125
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
It isn't about techniques for me. It is movement principles, and applied physics... I can tell you that it is important in my line of work to let technique flow from my need to get control over the overall situation.
That makes perfect sense. It's Mu Shin. As Bruce Lee said, "The biggest inhibitor to proper physical performance is the consciousness of self." That means the part of your brain that thinks about what to do next can't possibly keep up with what's going on. IMO, training hard, the way you're going to do it in real life is the only way to have it RELIABLY flow out in ways that are appropriate. Then your mind can get out of your body's way while it's taking care of business. And by that, I (as a Yoshinkan practitioner) mean using waza because it's the optimal execution of the movement, or we'd teach it differently.

So I'm essentially agreeing, if I understand what you're saying. But with one caveat- If you're training techniques, you're using techniques. Well or poorly, not to say it isn't effective either way.

I have some basis for saying that- I worked in prisons for 5 years. It was about like what you do, but almost everybody's bigger, stronger and meaner than you (me, I mean). And generally sober, but just as pi$$ed.
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