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Old 10-02-2013, 06:58 PM   #76
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
What Chris said. Sums it up.
Benjamin, we have had discussions here on aiki, right in this forum. Somehow, and perhaps not surprisingly, they did not get far because in words it just comes across as so esoteric. We could try it again, though.
I understand this exactly. it is hard to explain in words. I can do some stuff, for example, but I am not sure if the stuff I am doing is what you or anyone else is doing. The only way to know is to meet and exchange ideas in person. I think people have been slowly waking up - for a few years now - but the thing is, most of the discussions I see end up off at some tangent into the mysterious ki world of fluff. Not that they may be wrong, but rather that it just makes no sense to the rational mind. For me, aiki is a physical skill that can be learned and taught (if one knows what one has learned). But to even get that far, I think people need to recognize it as aiki (rather than ki) so that exchange - even in person - can progress. If someone tells me to transmit my ki from my tanden into my partner to control him I will just smile politely and not come back. If someone shows me how he transmits the power from his foot to his hand in an efficient powerful manner I will be all ears - to see if it is the same or different to what I do, and to see if there is anything I can add to make what I do better. And so on. Thus, I think it is important to think of Aikido as being The Way of Aiki, rather than some fluffy alternative. I can't even begin to engage people in conversation about it, let alone practise anything, unless they can at least get that far into my mind.

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Old 10-02-2013, 10:31 PM   #77
Cliff Judge
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Re: The Way of Aiki

One problem you all seem to have is that you can't seem to separate the training methods from the application. We've established that aiki is numinous; it is not really a thing without a couple of different forces coming together, right? So what do you actually do when you wake up in the morning at the crack of dawn or when you begin your last three-hour solo training session at one in the morning?
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Old 10-03-2013, 04:48 AM   #78
Alex Megann
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
One problem you all seem to have is that you can't seem to separate the training methods from the application. We've established that aiki is numinous; it is not really a thing without a couple of different forces coming together, right? So what do you actually do when you wake up in the morning at the crack of dawn or when you begin your last three-hour solo training session at one in the morning?
I think the point that a lot of people are making on this thread is that aiki is NOT numinous: it doesn't come to you like divine grace. It's a physical skill that you have to train hard to get good at.

Actually I do a lot of my solo training lying in bed (I mean that seriously, by the way). There are a set of solo drills that are designed to be performed standing up, but they work just as well lying down.

Alex
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:20 AM   #79
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
One problem you all seem to have is that you can't seem to separate the training methods from the application. We've established that aiki is numinous; it is not really a thing without a couple of different forces coming together, right? So what do you actually do when you wake up in the morning at the crack of dawn or when you begin your last three-hour solo training session at one in the morning?
Cliff,
I don't think that aiki is numinous, but that it is one concept that is made up of a number of component parts, like the famous elephant in the story of the five blind men and the pachyderm. There are different principles involved in its expression, and one can learn some basic aiki skills and express only a couple of those principles. Not the complete picture, yet still aiki.

As far as what I actually do for solo training... I always start with exercises that condition body alignment -- stacking of the joints so that there is minimal use of muscle tension to hold my body up, and certain muscles and muscle groups typically used to hold us up and to effect arm and shoulder movement (among other things), are thus relaxed and have potential energy to be utilized for other things. The potential for internal power begins with joint alignment. That's step one.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:21 AM   #80
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
One problem you all seem to have is that you can't seem to separate the training methods from the application. We've established that aiki is numinous; it is not really a thing without a couple of different forces coming together, right? So what do you actually do when you wake up in the morning at the crack of dawn or when you begin your last three-hour solo training session at one in the morning?
When was that ever established?
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:23 AM   #81
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
In case anyone was inclined to believe the above spin, the actual reason is that folks at seminars are asked not to discuss the material online in an attempt to keep it exclusive and monetizable. Most of the threads on this subject are marketing dressed up as discussion. Personally, I very much look forward to a frank discussion of training modalities instead.
Right, it's a conspiracy

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:27 AM   #82
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Tom Quinn wrote: View Post
Right, it's a conspiracy
let's not mention the pages upon pages of threads on this site alone doing exactly what he seems to be waiting for...
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:04 AM   #83
jonreading
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
In case anyone was inclined to believe the above spin, the actual reason is that folks at seminars are asked not to discuss the material online in an attempt to keep it exclusive and monetizable. Most of the threads on this subject are marketing dressed up as discussion. Personally, I very much look forward to a frank discussion of training modalities instead.
If you have attended one of these seminars you know this is false; if you have heard this second-hand, the information is incorrect hearsay; if you have no direct experience, then you have no basis on which to make this claim. Speaking from personal experience, I was asked not to discuss the material because:
1. I am not competent to explain it.
2. A significant component of the curriculum is physical feedback that cannot be adequately expressed verbally or technically.

Of course, we do have copyright and patent protections for a reason. I wonder who would feel comfortable if someone was running around incorrectly explaining a methodology [you] designed. Since that poor reflection would ultimately be upon you. I express frustration here because either this kind of stuff is calculated to mislead readers, or it is prejudicial against those who train in it. Why not make the same claim when [your] organization's shihan teach a seminar. Clearly, the seminar is monetized and the instruction is proprietary to the instructor.

Quote:
One problem you all seem to have is that you can't seem to separate the training methods from the application. We've established that aiki is numinous; it is not really a thing without a couple of different forces coming together, right? So what do you actually do when you wake up in the morning at the crack of dawn or when you begin your last three-hour solo training session at one in the morning?
Kuriowa Sensei used to talk about training that preceded kata, kihon waza. The best I can tell so far is IP is something that should always exist before waza (as a matter of being, to be more precise). In theory, if you are practicing aikido, you would be training IP with every technique or exercise. The problem is kata is often difficult enough - the idea of solo exercises is to provide a different environment in which to focus on a portion of the entire relationship between partners. In this sense, the training is similar to the simplification we have seen elsewhere; the removal of a second attack, the specification of kata, the speed at which we train. All of this solutions are designed to allow us to focus our efforts in learning.

And yes, it sucks to commit to training 4-5 hours daily. This is why IP is not for everyone. Standing naked in the bathroom waiting for the shower to heat up is now training time. Mirrors are not my friend. Or the spousal/familial training. There is nothing quite like the "you're an idiot" look from the wife when you ask her to push on your chest with slow, building pressure. Or the anxiety of asking a 4-year old to push daddy knowing that maybe you get a push, maybe you get a tiny fist in your crotch. Usually, a tiny fist in your crotch.

Last edited by jonreading : 10-03-2013 at 08:15 AM.

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Old 10-03-2013, 08:16 AM   #84
phitruong
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
So ... aiki.
What is it?
aiki, in chinese, is hua jin. found this article sufficiently describe it http://latcmwellnesscenter.com/184.html . by the way, there can be only one jin.

Quote:
Have you felt it?
yes. from a few in aikido and a few outside of aikido.

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Can you do something you think might be aiki?
yes. don't have to think. i know i do.

Quote:
Do you have the means to develop it?
yes. based on the teaching from a bunch of internal folks that taught me.

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Are you searching, or remain just content to be 'told'?
always searching and questioning. never be happy with what you got; otherwise, you won't learn and get complacent and developing some sort of aiki-god complex. btw, i am an aikigod, especially, when i do pair ribbon dance with Jon in tights.

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Have you sussed anything interesting?
yes. too many to discuss here.

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Have you discerned any interesting principles that you can apply across a range of waza?
yes. many principles that i can apply to all of my martial arts practice.

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Can you move people that resist?
yes. and depends on their skill level. can't move folks who are better than i am.

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Can you take people's balance with subtle craft?
yes. and depends on their skill level. can't do it to folks who are better than i am.

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Or ... are you just training and hoping one day ... It'll just happen?
it happens. you just have to work for it and do it in a methodical manner. and testing it out on unsuspecting aikido folks.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:45 AM   #85
Cliff Judge
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Re: The Way of Aiki

I really don't understand why you folks spend so much energy having non-factual conversations about your things.

Quote:
I started my morning with exercises that condition my cardiovascular capacity. Moving blood through my veins at a higher than resting rate and moving more air into and out of my lungs, and breaking a little bit of sweat. I then moved onto exercises that strengthen the muscles around the core of my body. Tensing and releasing muscle groups. I finished off with exercises that lengthen major muscle groups in my arms and legs. Increased cardio capacity improves my heart's ability to function at rest, and warm, lengthened muscles are less prone to injury as I move about my day!
There now I can claim that I have provided all the details of my morning workout. If anyone were to say that I did not provide any type of actual description of what I did I will simply tell them that there have been many many threads on the subject you should use the search button. As well, there are plenty of teachers out there doing This Stuff and you have plenty of opportunities to go find out about it yourself.

At any rate, describing what i actually did is impossible because you have to do it to know what it is.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #86
sakumeikan
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
In case anyone was inclined to believe the above spin, the actual reason is that folks at seminars are asked not to discuss the material online in an attempt to keep it exclusive and monetizable. Most of the threads on this subject are marketing dressed up as discussion. Personally, I very much look forward to a frank discussion of training modalities instead.
Dear Ben,
On the one hand we have people on this forum who state that D.H wants his student to inform others[unless I am reading things incorrectly ].At the same time as far as I am aware nobody has given specifics or any actual examples of what is being shown.You get some guys saying they are integrating DHs stuff in their own practice.Wonderful, why do these guys not give us an idea of what D.H is all about.Maybe if we got a clue to whats being shown[a video snip for example]D.H. might find his workload would increase?Could the I/S guys be in a clique???Is it like a Masonic Order? Do you need to sign a document in blood? Do you swear on the Talmud,/Bible or any other holy book, not to reveal the secrets, on pain of death /or sitting through a repeat showing of the Man from Atlantis?? Cheers,Joe.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #87
sakumeikan
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I think the point that a lot of people are making on this thread is that aiki is NOT numinous: it doesn't come to you like divine grace. It's a physical skill that you have to train hard to get good at.

Actually I do a lot of my solo training lying in bed (I mean that seriously, by the way). There are a set of solo drills that are designed to be performed standing up, but they work just as well lying down.

Alex
Dear Alex,
Dear God , Alex, the mind boggles at the thought {your horizontal exercises?]What no partner practice???Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:43 AM   #88
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Oh c'mon Joe,
Cady has explicitly given Sam Chin and his DVD's as an open source. Anyone can look him up on youtube. Sam says that there, actually, is nothing to learn. But he certainly is worth a look.
So, why do you insist on Dan? What drives you to do this?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I think the point that a lot of people are making on this thread is that aiki is NOT numinous: it doesn't come to you like divine grace. It's a physical skill that you have to train hard to get good at.

Actually I do a lot of my solo training lying in bed (I mean that seriously, by the way). There are a set of solo drills that are designed to be performed standing up, but they work just as well lying down.

Alex
Only that I would like to say, that training hard isn't all to get good at it. Investigating intelligence and creativity, having fun, patience, consistency etc., are also good ingredients. And if we had a knack for it, if we were cut out for it, that would be best.

Of course, training hard can be fun. But so many have and haven't got very far.

Best,
Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 10-03-2013 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:45 AM   #89
sakumeikan
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I really don't understand why you folks spend so much energy having non-factual conversations about your things.

There now I can claim that I have provided all the details of my morning workout. If anyone were to say that I did not provide any type of actual description of what I did I will simply tell them that there have been many many threads on the subject you should use the search button. As well, there are plenty of teachers out there doing This Stuff and you have plenty of opportunities to go find out about it yourself.

At any rate, describing what i actually did is impossible because you have to do it to know what it is.
Dear Cliff,
So as I read it you do a bit of cardio/stretching/Misogi /Qi Kung /Prana breathing ? and something akin to isometrics?Nothing particularly esoteric in these methods. Join any gym and you can get instruction on any of the above.So as I see it if this is Internal Strength training its nothing new.
I did Charles Atlas stuff years ago, [isometrics] , went running, I do breathing exercises regularly , hate stretching.I would not say I am doing I.S.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:55 AM   #90
Alex Megann
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Alex,
Dear God , Alex, the mind boggles at the thought {your horizontal exercises?]What no partner practice???Cheers, Joe.
Calm down now, Joe...

Alex
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:03 AM   #91
Cliff Judge
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Cliff,
So as I read it you do a bit of cardio/stretching/Misogi /Qi Kung /Prana breathing ? and something akin to isometrics?Nothing particularly esoteric in these methods. Join any gym and you can get instruction on any of the above.So as I see it if this is Internal Strength training its nothing new.
I did Charles Atlas stuff years ago, [isometrics] , went running, I do breathing exercises regularly , hate stretching.I would not say I am doing I.S.Cheers, Joe.
The analogy is not good because cardio training, core strengthening, and stretching are trivial matters. I can give a very vague description of what I did and what I was trying to get out of it and you can think of a number of things that I could have done.

But in point of fact, I ran two miles, balanced on my butt with my legs raised and hugged my knees then extended my legs 100 times without letting my feet touch the floor, then I sat up, spread my legs as wide as is comfortable, and gently bent towards my left foot, focusing on keeping my back straight and lengthened. I held that pose for abotu two minutes then switched to my right leg.

Now imagine I were to make claims that my particular pattern of exercise was the only real way to attain cardio vascular health, core strength, and limber leg muscles, and that you could NOT, in fact, attain this instruction at most gyms. But I and the people who trained with me would never actually supply a paragraph like the one above this one, just thread after thread about how awesome the cardio, core strength, and flexibility benefits are.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:05 AM   #92
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Both men and their methods are worth a close look. I pointed out I Liq Chuan in particular because it's the best of the approaches for gaining a basic understanding of IP/aiki I've seen, to date, that is openly available and accessible outside of a seminar or one-on-one training, via videos, DVDs and written material. Maybe there are better systems for developing aiki and internal power, but if they are not accessible to you, then what good are they? Trees falling in a lonesome forest.

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Oh c'mon Joe,
Cady has explicitly given Sam Chin and his DVD's as an open source. Anyone can look him up on youtube. Sam says that there, actually, is nothing to learn. But he certainly is worth a look.
So, why do you insist on Dan? What drives you to do this?

Only that I would like to say, that training hard isn't all to get good at it. Investigating intelligence and creativity, having fun, patience, consistency etc., are also good ingredients. And if we had a knack for it, if we were cut out for it, that would be best.

Of course, training hard can be fun. But so many have and haven't got very far.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:09 AM   #93
Mert Gambito
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Mike Sigman posted this a long while ago: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...79&postcount=5. Seems no one at the time or since bothered to take this two(-of-six)-directional exercise out for a spin, try it out and report back.

How do you know if you're doing it correctly? Anyone irresponsible enough to try to offer remote adjustments without hands-on through his/her keyboard -- that's on you. If that just adds to some readers' frustration, then it is what it is: this is just too poor a medium to properly impart the necessary feedback. Ditto even if a given would-be tire-kicker out there got a hold of Mike's, Akuzawa's or ILC videos. For those frustrated folks out there, what are your experiences in trying the exercises depicted on those videos without hands-on feedback from a sempai in those respective methodologies?

Shugyo, especially of this flavor, is still best done in person. Then the discussions that were frustrating become meaningful.

Mert
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:19 AM   #94
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Shugyo, especially of this flavor, is still best done in person. Then the discussions that were frustrating become meaningful.
Of course.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:30 AM   #95
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The analogy is not good because cardio training, core strengthening, and stretching are trivial matters. I can give a very vague description of what I did and what I was trying to get out of it and you can think of a number of things that I could have done.

But in point of fact, I ran two miles, balanced on my butt with my legs raised and hugged my knees then extended my legs 100 times without letting my feet touch the floor, then I sat up, spread my legs as wide as is comfortable, and gently bent towards my left foot, focusing on keeping my back straight and lengthened. I held that pose for abotu two minutes then switched to my right leg.

Now imagine I were to make claims that my particular pattern of exercise was the only real way to attain cardio vascular health, core strength, and limber leg muscles, and that you could NOT, in fact, attain this instruction at most gyms. But I and the people who trained with me would never actually supply a paragraph like the one above this one, just thread after thread about how awesome the cardio, core strength, and flexibility benefits are.
And any good running coach will tell you that "running two miles" tells one very little about what you actually did or did not do during that run - and that's a relatively simple conventional exercise. Just as "I did shiho-nage" tells me very little about what you're actually doing or not doing without a common frame of reference.

Nobody that I know has ever claimed that what we're doing is the only way to do anything - Dan has said that specifically on Aikiweb many times, and people in this very thread have given real world examples of other people doing the same or similar things.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-03-2013, 10:40 AM   #96
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Speaking from personal experience, I was asked not to discuss the material
Its false but also happened to you personally. I rest my case.

Last edited by bkedelen : 10-03-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #97
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
If that just adds to some readers' frustration, then it is what it is: this is just too poor a medium to properly impart the necessary feedback. Ditto even if a given would-be tire-kicker out there got a hold of Mike's, Akuzawa's or ILC videos.
Videos of Sigman, Ark, Ushiro and others didn't hurt me any, and any frustration they caused me is just part of the process. After years of training internal skills, the better videos offer really important access to what you missed when you were not ready to see. I would LOVE to see videos from the Harden camp, but for whatever reason they are too cool for school.
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Old 10-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #98
Alex Megann
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
In case anyone was inclined to believe the above spin, the actual reason is that folks at seminars are asked not to discuss the material online in an attempt to keep it exclusive and monetizable. Most of the threads on this subject are marketing dressed up as discussion. Personally, I very much look forward to a frank discussion of training modalities instead.
This is so plain wrong it's hard to think how to respond. Dan never said ANYTHING like this at the seminar I attended in April. He certainly encouraged us to practise it with our students. I have never thought of this stuff as any kind of commercial "business" - mainly because in the modern world it is so hard to make much money out of it at all. This argument has gone round and round already on this site several times and has got pretty stale.

I am sure that there have been several quite comprehensive and open discussions on AikiWeb of the training exercises that both Dan and Mike Sigman teach. I spent a few minutes searching the forums earlier today, but gave up after a while - perhaps others have more patience (or a more organised bookmarking system).

Alex
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:10 PM   #99
Rob Watson
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Re: The Way of Aiki

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21951

Post 93 in particular ....

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:28 PM   #100
hughrbeyer
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
In case anyone was inclined to believe the above spin, the actual reason is that folks at seminars are asked not to discuss the material online in an attempt to keep it exclusive and monetizable. Most of the threads on this subject are marketing dressed up as discussion. Personally, I very much look forward to a frank discussion of training modalities instead.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is completely out of line. You are not entitled to just make up slander about people through this forum.

"Exclusive and monetizable?" What a crock. DH's whole goal right now is to train people who will be able to teach the methods themselves. I've trained with a double handful of them myself. If you haven't, that's on you.

You've got no idea what kind of person the man is, what he's about, or what he's trying to accomplish. I'd suggest some humility.


Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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