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Old 09-30-2013, 11:23 PM   #26
OwlMatt
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Most of the change in how the term is used came from Kisshomaru, rather than Morihei. If you look at what Morihei actually said it's not incompatible or even inconsistent with what comes from Takeda via the Daito-ryu lineages, and it doesn't really change from 1933 to the late 1960's, although it's clear that he gives various methods of explanation.
Everything I see in a brief investigation of Daito is that aiki in the Daito context is a physical and martial principle. I think it's pretty clear that Ueshiba wanted to stretch aiki beyond those boundaries.
Quote:
I'm curious as to how one can figure out what good "Aikido" is without the "Aiki", wouldn't that just leave "do"?

Best,

Chris
To hear Ueshiba tell it, the word aikido is just an arbitrary name that someone from the Ministry of Education came up with for Ueshiba's martial art. Ueshiba did not create the word as a guide for us to follow; he accepted the word because his art needed a name. We need to define the word according to our practice of the art, not try to make our practice of the art fit the word. I think it's putting the cart before the horse to look into the word aikido and break it down into its etymological parts, and then try to make our art fit those parts, as you seem to be suggesting.
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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure, there are people who train for health, or social companionship, or whatever - and that's fine, if it fulfills your goals.

OTOH, if you're interested in investigating Aikido itself (as in "figuring out good Aikido") then I would think that it's hard to get around the necessity to investigate Aiki.

Best,

Chris
What is this "Aiki" and how do I "investigate" it? Is there more to this investigation than aikido training?

Last edited by OwlMatt : 09-30-2013 at 11:28 PM.

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:29 PM   #27
Stephen Nichol
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I think Aikido to be The Way of Aiki. Can we have a discussion about aiki without mentioning ki I wonder? I think aiki is a learnable skill. The minute someone starts talking about ki, harmony, and the meaning of the universe, practical learning is lost.

If you don't think that Aikido is the Way of Aiki, they try to explain why not.
I think it is one of the ways of learning 'Aiki' and that it is supposed to be 'the way' as understood by M. Ueshiba as he was developing 'his martial art' as derived from what he learned from Takeda. To be clear, I think Ueshiba thought his 'way' would be a good way for others to learn about 'Aiki', perhaps not 'how to do it' but 'hey, this stuff is really powerful and I will show you, but it is up to you to learn/steal etc..' We know Ueshiba did not coin the name Aikido himself however thought it fit once it became used and so adopted it rather happily.

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just what is it we are supposed to be learning? Not the techniques, methinks. The techniques are the means to learn aiki. The various schools of Jujutsu (even Judo) have aiki-like katas or movements taught to seniors. I think Ueshiba took those ideas and created Aikido, and the techniques we have are meant to develop aiki, not become techniques unto themselves (as they seem to have become). I also think that if you understand aiki, you can put it into any technique - Judo, Jujutsu, or of course, your standard Aikido 'waza'.
I agree. It is not the techniques within themselves.

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Anyway, few people out there are looking for aiki, or seeking ways to develop it. Most are just concerned with which way to do this or that 'waza', where to put the feet and how to twist uke this way or that, and what they need for the next grading, and so on. I was like that too for my first 20, yes TWENTY, years of training so I kind of understand 'the problem'. Can you understand this problem? Or do you think I am wrong - or that there is no problem?
I believe that techniques are expressions to demonstrate 'Aiki' when it is being performed correctly.
I would like to believe that as long as one understands the principle above and that they know what they are supposed to be developing within themselves, internally.. then perhaps it is possible to reverse engineer the techniques sort of speak, break them down to their very essence and develop 'Aiki' from that which can the be free of the technique/kata and be expressed any way it is needed, spontaneously and free from form/kata and applied to any style/art as one desires.

So even if you spent 20 years perhaps not quite on the path you now understand to 'exist', you can still draw from your understanding and experience and intelligently begin researching and investigating what you have been doing all this time and find that essence.

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Kungfu has pushing hands etc., Systema has many interesting exercises, Aunkai too, and so on. Besides waza, what does Aikido have that helps us develop aiki? Or must people search beyond Aikido?
I would say that it really depends on your Aikido teachers. Some of us are fortunate or just plain lucky to have found a teacher that without knowing about CMA and IS/IP from the internet or any other source, can demonstrate some skill in it and teach how to replicate what they do in great detail. I will concede however that most likely the 'Aiki' abilities like those of Dan and his students not what is being demonstrated/taught or learned even if the teacher has some of it, by the general group of 'Aikidoka' out there. Ignorance is bliss sometimes... however I for one really want to get my hands on Dan or at the very very least, one of his higher level students, and find out how close my teachers 'way' is to that of Dan's so that I can rest easier in my training.

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
So ... aiki.
What is it?
Have you felt it?
Can you do something you think might be aiki?
Do you have the means to develop it?
Are you searching, or remain just content to be 'told'?
Have you sussed anything interesting?
Have you discerned any interesting principles that you can apply across a range of waza?
Can you move people that resist?
Can you take people's balance with subtle craft?
Or ... are you just training and hoping one day ... It'll just happen?
What is it? - I think my beliefs and feelings are pretty clear. It's the ability to absorb and nullify incoming force(s) and redirect them if desired to accomplish whatever outcome you wish.

Have you felt it? - I cannot be certain. There are times when I think I have and then I have to be honest and say by basis for comparison is pretty limited at this stage. Hence why I want to go meet Dan and train with him to find out if the path I am on is hopefully somewhat parallel and not going in the other direction.

Can you do something you think might be aiki? Well, if only at the most basic level, perhaps.

Do you have the means to develop it? If my teachers abilities are anything like Dan demonstrates when with others, then perhaps as she teaches a very details method of body movement that works in some degree to what I read about on here. Not everything to be sure.. but there is enough of it that I am hopeful.

Are you searching, or remain just content to be 'told'? Actively searching. Really wanted to get to Hawaii in July but things just could not line themselves up in a way that would allow it to be conducive to future/current events that need(ed) to happen. Perhaps in 2014 at some point, even if I have to fly all the way the US and spend as much time as I can afford...

Have you sussed anything interesting? - As I said, I have teachers here that can all demonstrate Aikido that is devoid of 'muscle' in the their movement and 'waza' but I have not seen any of them demonstrate the standing relaxed being pushed on at the chest shoulders as an example of not being moveable/throwable etc.

Have you discerned any interesting principles that you can apply across a range of waza? - Honestly I can not say for certain.

[b]Can you move people that resist?[/u] - Yes. From static but with intent or ability to 'move' me if I do not move myself correctly through to moving attacks that are committed but not off balance/over committed and if I move incorrectly I actually create the resistance in them, they do not have to do it themselves... does that make sense to anyone?

Can you take people's balance with subtle craft? - Sometimes yes. I understand to a limited degree what I need/should be doing with myself to do this but I cannot do it consistently and in all 'waza'. Some techniques it comes easier than others for me.

Or ... are you just training and hoping one day ... It'll just happen? - Both actually. I feel my training is giving me results that make it worth continuing. I still really want that comparison of getting my hands on Dan for an understanding of what many respected instructors on here seem to vouch for him on his abilities. Twice I have attend Gleason Sensei's seminars here in Australia and at the end of the second one I mentioned my intention to him about getting to Hawaii in July and he said I should do it and that Dan was the most powerful martial artist he had ever met.

Yes, this 'stuff', whatever you want to call it is the most important thing to me in my training. My Sensei knows about it because I and others in my dojo talk about 'it' and Dan and the testimonials by others of the demonstrations he has done. My own Sensei is encouraging me to go and learn as much as I can from him so I can 'finally rest' my need to know if the paths are parallel and to bring what I can to everyone else in the dojo who is interested in developing it.

I actually hope to learn what I can from Dan at some point and practice it daily and pass it along to my Sensei so it can become just part of what we teach everyone so they come to understand it as just a regular part of their Aikido class.

Also: Why is Dan no longer posting here? When did that happen and how did I miss it? There was so many little nuggets of gold/aiki to be mined from his posts. Hours of reading and then when training with others moments of 'ah hah!' Anyway.. Why no more Dan posts?

Last edited by Stephen Nichol : 09-30-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:51 AM   #28
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Everything I see in a brief investigation of Daito is that aiki in the Daito context is a physical and martial principle. I think it's pretty clear that Ueshiba wanted to stretch aiki beyond those boundaries.
Certainly, but that doesn't mean that his streched definition was incompatible with the technical definitions of Daito-ryu. For Ueshiba they were not two distinct things, but one seamless whole. In fact, I would argue that it is impossible to sever one from the other without the result becoming something different from Ueshiba's Aiki, and that he said as much himself. But that's a longer discussion that I'll put together at some point, perhaps.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
To hear Ueshiba tell it, the word aikido is just an arbitrary name that someone from the Ministry of Education came up with for Ueshiba's martial art. Ueshiba did not create the word as a guide for us to follow; he accepted the word because his art needed a name. We need to define the word according to our practice of the art, not try to make our practice of the art fit the word. I think it's putting the cart before the horse to look into the word aikido and break it down into its etymological parts, and then try to make our art fit those parts, as you seem to be suggesting.
The Ministry of Education story is, unfortunately, not true, even though it was one that came straight out of Ueshiba's own mouth. In any case, a quick read through "Take Musu Aiki" leaves little doubt as to his opinion on the importance of the word "Aiki".

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
What is this "Aiki" and how do I "investigate" it? Is there more to this investigation than aikido training?
There could be, or not, YMMV. I suspect that most people already know my opinions on how to investigate it...

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-01-2013, 12:57 AM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Matt Using an analogy I have held for a long time....Aikido is like a building with lots of floors with lots of rooms...taking the elevator that arises out of curiosity and a need to know, one can get off at any one of many floors.....though I think that some floors are not available without a working knowledge of the floor below them.

I think there is plenty to be learned on first few floors of the Aikido building, with some traces, some touches of Aiki part of the mix. To me real Aiki is in the floors above where access is limited by willingness of the individual to spent the time searching for the doors, willingness to spent a long time training, be willing to step back out of dead ends, figuring out who to trust, and some luck.

Having said all of this......do I know anything.....not likely, but I know it is out there while recognizing I may never get it.

Gary
I like that a lot! Thank you, Gary! ...I imagine, too, the higher floor buttons in that elevator wouldn't be so obvious to the eye.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:39 AM   #30
PaulF
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Walk around long enough in the mist you'll get wet

Fall in the river you'll get really wet really quick, but maybe a bit muddy as well and it helps to be able to swim

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Old 10-01-2013, 04:29 AM   #31
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Aikido is like a building with lots of floors with lots of rooms...taking the elevator that arises out of curiosity and a need to know, one can get off at any one of many floors.....though I think that some floors are not available without a working knowledge of the floor below them.

I think there is plenty to be learned on first few floors of the Aikido building, with some traces, some touches of Aiki part of the mix. To me real Aiki is in the floors above where access is limited by willingness of the individual to spent the time searching for the doors, willingness to spent a long time training, be willing to step back out of dead ends, figuring out who to trust, and some luck.

Having said all of this......do I know anything.....not likely, but I know it is out there while recognizing I may never get it.

Gary
Hi Gary,
the problem may be that you (like so many of us) prefer the higher floors instead of going down into the basement, looking for the basics.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:28 AM   #32
OwlMatt
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
There could be, or not, YMMV. I suspect that most people already know my opinions on how to investigate it...

Best,

Chris
I confess that I do not.

My feeling has always been that if a martial art purports to be built on principles, then those principles should be readily accessible in the actual physical practice of the art.

Back when I did taekwondo, my taekwondo instructor would end every class by having us recite the "tenets of taekwondo": courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and indomitable spirit. I always thought it was silly -- not that the tenets are silly things, but that it's silly to believe they are more connected to the practice of taekwondo than they are to anything else. Punching and kicking does not make us more courteous and courtesy does not make us any better at punching and kicking. The "tenets of taekwondo" are little more than an arbitrary and artificial attachment to an activity that has little to do with them.

By contrast, one of the things that appeals to me about aikido is how the principles on which it was founded are evident in the actual training. When Ueshiba talks about "the principle of non-resistance", he doesn't just mean something abstract to be meditated on; the principle of non-resistance is right there in our waza. Non-resistance is how aikido physically works.

If aiki is essential to our aikido, then (a) we should be able to explain what it is, and (b) we should be able to find it on the mat without any extracurricular investigating. I think that if we have to look outside aikido to find it, then it was never a part of aikido in the first place.

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Old 10-01-2013, 07:46 AM   #33
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post

If aiki is essential to our aikido, then (a) we should be able to explain what it is, and (b) we should be able to find it on the mat without any extracurricular investigating. I think that if we have to look outside aikido to find it, then it was never a part of aikido in the first place.
It would be nice if that were so, but just like any other discipline, not every school and not every teacher is equal. And, aiki has been explained (here on AikiWeb). It's not a mysterious thing, only something that has been either kept a "secret" by some, incompletely learned and/or transmitted by others, or intentionally removed from a system in order to make it more easily taught and disseminated en masse.

If you lived in a country where baseball was introduced, but without the bat (let's say that the guy who brought it back from America decided the bat would be too difficult to manufacture), I suppose you would think that a bat was never part of baseball in the first place. And you probably would invent padded gloves for your hitting hand to protect it from 90 mph baseball impact, to make up for the absence of the bat (which was never a part of baseball...)

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 10-01-2013 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:26 AM   #34
Gary David
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Hi Gary,
the problem may be that you (like so many of us) prefer the higher floors instead of going down into the basement, looking for the basics.

Best,
Bernd
Bernd
You may be right.....though I would say about myself I think I have a fair amount of foundation and have spent a reasonable amount of time with the basics having trained in Aikido since 1974. Much of what I pursue now is how to help my 71 year old body function in a world full of younger bodies where for me basics without Aiki no longer stand up. Everyone has to seek their own path.....mine is upward, not back into the basement.

Gary
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #35
phitruong
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Matt Using an analogy I have held for a long time....Aikido is like a building with lots of floors with lots of rooms...taking the elevator that arises out of curiosity and a need to know, one can get off at any one of many floors.....though I think that some floors are not available without a working knowledge of the floor below them.
Gary
you know some elevators in the U.S. have no 13th floor. i think that's where all the aiki went. now that i mentioned it, i need to stock up on candies. i am thinking of going as superman this year. wonder if the keg around the gut would still make me look good in tights.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #36
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I confess that I do not.

My feeling has always been that if a martial art purports to be built on principles, then those principles should be readily accessible in the actual physical practice of the art.
Yes - and they are, but nothing this difficult is easily accessible. People's abilities vary - and more importantly, their ability to transmit their own skills vary. There have been a number of discussions about why this is especially true for Aikido, but I'm not going to go into them now.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
By contrast, one of the things that appeals to me about aikido is how the principles on which it was founded are evident in the actual training. When Ueshiba talks about "the principle of non-resistance", he doesn't just mean something abstract to be meditated on; the principle of non-resistance is right there in our waza. Non-resistance is how aikido physically works.
It is, but I have a hunch that my explanation for that would be different than yours.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If aiki is essential to our aikido, then (a) we should be able to explain what it is, and (b) we should be able to find it on the mat without any extracurricular investigating. I think that if we have to look outside aikido to find it, then it was never a part of aikido in the first place.
That assumes that everybody who's teaching Aikido knows what they're doing (they don't - but that's true in any art), that everybody who's teaching Aikido was able to understand fully what Ueshiba was doing (they didn't - by their own admission), and that everybody who learned something of what Ueshiba was doing is able to explain and transmit what they were doing - and I think that there are a large number of people who feel that they weren't.

Morihei Ueshiba encouraged his students to go and experiment with other arts - as he himself did. It boggles my mind to see people today encouraging the exact opposite.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-01-2013, 09:37 AM   #37
Alex Megann
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
If you lived in a country where baseball was introduced, but without the bat (let's say that the guy who brought it back from America decided the bat would be too difficult to manufacture), I suppose you would think that a bat was never part of baseball in the first place. And you probably would invent padded gloves for your hitting hand to protect it from 90 mph baseball impact, to make up for the absence of the bat (which was never a part of baseball...)
Completely off-topic, but this is starting to sound like the game of Fives, played in some British private schools:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_HhARbcw7g

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 10-01-2013 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:48 AM   #38
OwlMatt
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes - and they are, but nothing this difficult is easily accessible. People's abilities vary - and more importantly, their ability to transmit their own skills vary. There have been a number of discussions about why this is especially true for Aikido, but I'm not going to go into them now.
Of course, we must allow for the obvious truth that not all aikido is good aikido, and not all aikido transmits what it is intended to transmit.

Quote:
It is, but I have a hunch that my explanation for that would be different than yours.
Probably, but we seem to agree here, so let's not push it.

Quote:
That assumes that everybody who's teaching Aikido knows what they're doing (they don't - but that's true in any art), that everybody who's teaching Aikido was able to understand fully what Ueshiba was doing (they didn't - by their own admission), and that everybody who learned something of what Ueshiba was doing is able to explain and transmit what they were doing - and I think that there are a large number of people who feel that they weren't.
I think this is more of what we were talking about above.

Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba encouraged his students to go and experiment with other arts - as he himself did. It boggles my mind to see people today encouraging the exact opposite.

Best,

Chris
I have no problem with cross-training.

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Old 10-01-2013, 10:55 AM   #39
jonreading
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Although this is a very nice echo chamber you guys have going, I'm not sure that the false dichotomy of the original post is something that will catalyze a real discussion on the topic. It is somewhat dishonest to inquire, "have you had the same experiences as me OR are you just training and hoping one day it will happen"?

Do you really want to have a discussion about the different groups out there developing usable skills through Aikido, Daito Ryu, and other esoteric jujutsu, or do you just want to circlejerk for a while longer about how you have already got an exclusive lock on the bona fide goods and everyone else is just grinding their gears?
Ummm..The internal people do a lot of weird exercises - I am not sure if that is one of them...

I still have yet to hear a serious instructor working with IP/AIKI exclude anyone from their training. I think there are fair criticisms about internal training, I think the argument of exclusion is not one of them. You can choose not to participate, but that is different from being excluded.

Some of this stuff boils down to preference. In another thread, I had a dialogue with Cliff about the preference of translations. I think aiki is a large topic and some aikido people have a smaller perspective with which they are content to accept as the entirety of their perspective. That does not mean their perspective is wrong, but it implies their preference is not the limit of the topic.

I enjoy math. I am quite content to limit my exposure to math in my daily. I am sure quadranomials are nice - but I have no desire to make them part of my life. My preference is neither a criticism of my enjoyment for math, nor my opinion of quadranomials. It is simply a limit of my experience.

Matthew touched on this... Not everyone training shares the same preferences or expectations of success. I think we can respect those differences as long as we honestly assess the scope of those differences. I have no doubt there are many people practicing aikido who honestly could care less about aiki. I think there are many people who could care less about kata. I think their are many people who could care less about ranking. I think the thread is more about sharing our preference and exploring the scope that preference establishes.

I think you have a VoE expressing his preference in training and soliciting others to express theirs. I think he would be quite open to listening to your training experience and reasoning behind your preferences.

I have been shot in the ass lucky. ASU is a great organization to explore internal training. We have support from our shihan and leading instructors, several of whom are exploring this stuff with great success. We happen to be close to Sensei in Florida, we have some great instructors down here that are willing to share/beat up us. We have great relationships with others who are working on this stuff. All of these factors shaped my preference to explore IP/Aiki. None of that is a criticism against aikido here in Atlanta, predominantly USAF. It is simply an expression of mine/our dojo's preference to give this stuff a shot. I reserve the right to judge after a period of evaluation.

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Old 10-01-2013, 11:48 AM   #40
phitruong
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I still have yet to hear a serious instructor working with IP/AIKI exclude anyone from their training. I think there are fair criticisms about internal training, I think the argument of exclusion is not one of them. You can choose not to participate, but that is different from being excluded.
hey, i excluded people! of course i am not a serious instructor or serious of any kind so that should be ok, right? i excluded people who has no sense of humor, taking themselves too seriously, jerks, aliens (especially the ones from Uranus), and some guy goes by the name of jon reading.

Quote:
I have been shot in the ass lucky. ASU is a great organization to explore internal training. We have support from our shihan and leading instructors, several of whom are exploring this stuff with great success.
i thought the same thing. i couldn't be in an organization that won't explore. that would just drive me nuts.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:18 PM   #41
Gary David
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
....... Not everyone training shares the same preferences or expectations of success. I think we can respect those differences as long as we honestly assess the scope of those differences. I have no doubt there are many people practicing aikido who honestly could care less about aiki. I think there are many people who could care less about kata. I think their are many people who could care less about ranking. I think the thread is more about sharing our preference and exploring the scope that preference establishes.
Jon
It is my feeling that Aikido today is structurally (not content) much like the the koryu are/were...... many many many different approaches and product. Even Aikido dojo within the same organization put out different product. It is something we have to accept and learn to live with. We seem to share a common father with few of the children looking or moving alike.....and the grandchildren are totally different.
Gary
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:19 PM   #42
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Bernd
You may be right.....though I would say about myself I think I have a fair amount of foundation and have spent a reasonable amount of time with the basics having trained in Aikido since 1974. Much of what I pursue now is how to help my 71 year old body function in a world full of younger bodies where for me basics without Aiki no longer stand up. Everyone has to seek their own path.....mine is upward, not back into the basement.

Gary
Gary, at our age ..
It still is up to us.

Once you have got the first tiny seed of aiki, it will grow in you. You will know it right away. Of course, you are free to go wherever you want, any floor of the house, even outside the house.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:48 PM   #43
Gary David
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Gary, at our age ..
It still is up to us.

Once you have got the first tiny seed of aiki, it will grow in you. You will know it right away. Of course, you are free to go wherever you want, any floor of the house, even outside the house.

Best,
Bernd
Bernd
I have had some touches over the years....played with John Clodig for over 35 years, with Walter Muryasz for as long, touched most of the old dogs (including Tohei Sensei in the 70's), have had Dan Harden in my home 6 times, Howard Popkin once, spent a couple of sessions with Mike Sigman back some time ago, played with a couple of good Chinese folks, with some Karate and Escrima folks as well as talked with a lot of others......so don't don't worry about me, though I thank you for your concern and thoughtfulness.....
Gary
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:07 PM   #44
jonreading
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, i excluded people! of course i am not a serious instructor or serious of any kind so that should be ok, right? i excluded people who has no sense of humor, taking themselves too seriously, jerks, aliens (especially the ones from Uranus), and some guy goes by the name of jon reading.

i thought the same thing. i couldn't be in an organization that won't explore. that would just drive me nuts.
It took me a minute to catch this post, Phi is on my ignore list. He is also on my degrade list. Not that he needs help...degrading him...self.

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Old 10-01-2013, 02:16 PM   #45
HL1978
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think Aiki refers to a state wherein a person moves in accord with the ki of the universe. You do without doing, move without moving, you have no form, and technique spontaneously happens, exactly appropriate to circumstances.

The mind does not conflict with anything, it just touches the universe at the surface, allowing no space in between but not pressing into or clashing. And the body is perfectly in sync with the mind.
Some of this sounds like the concept of mushin. Do you see them being inter related or as someting different?
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:20 PM   #46
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Bernd
I have had some touches over the years....played with John Clodig for over 35 years, with Walter Muryasz for as long, touched most of the old dogs (including Tohei Sensei in the 70's), have had Dan Harden in my home 6 times, Howard Popkin once, spent a couple of sessions with Mike Sigman back some time ago, played with a couple of good Chinese folks, with some Karate and Escrima folks as well as talked with a lot of others......so don't don't worry about me, though I thank you for your concern and thoughtfulness.....
Gary
Thank you Gary. The list is quite impressive. But then, how come....

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: 

Having said all of this......do I know anything.....not likely, but I know it is out there while recognizing I may never get it.

Gary
The "you" in my last post was intended to be read as an including one. Better had I written:

Once we have got the first tiny seed of aiki, it will grow in us. We will know it right away. Of course, we are free to go wherever we want, any floor of the house, even outside the house.


Best,
Bernd
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:24 PM   #47
Cliff Judge
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Some of this sounds like the concept of mushin. Do you see them being inter related or as someting different?
They are definitely related - the mind needs to be calm and clear for aiki to freely express itself through you. I think a different way to say this is that if you stay relaxed and centered you can operate as one with your intuitive faculties, and the proper technique will flow from you.

If you watched somebody in this state it would look a lot like a crazy old man demonstrating techniques from an apparently vast syllabus.

(So I gather, anyway....)
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:48 PM   #48
bkedelen
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

Thanks Bernd for that perfect example of how people are excluded by default on this subject. I often wonder how you aiki guys remember who is supposed to have it and who doesn't. It must get confusing after a while.

Last edited by bkedelen : 10-01-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:02 PM   #49
Gary David
 
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
But then, how come....
Best,
Bernd
Bernd
Never one to talk myself up. Clear to me (to myself) what my capabilities are and also what I don't know. I am also not concerned about what I don't know....the path(s) is there if I choose to go down them. This late in the game time becomes a factor.......just so.
Gary
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:22 AM   #50
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Way of Aiki

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Bernd
Never one to talk myself up. Clear to me (to myself) what my capabilities are ..... This late in the game time becomes a factor.......just so.
Gary
Gary,
I didn't expect otherwise from you. I can see your point.
Hope you are well.

Best,
Bernd
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