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Old 09-25-2013, 07:07 AM   #26
ChrisMikk
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Ki(mchi) blasts.
onara kusai. brutal!

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Old 09-25-2013, 07:09 AM   #27
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
"No design, no conception" as Musashi wrote down.
Musashi also towered over his opponents physically and spent all his time training. Good luck.

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Old 09-25-2013, 07:12 AM   #28
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
-- Well, that's mighty big of you; thanks! Remind me, which ones are the "dance styles" again?
Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.

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Old 09-25-2013, 08:05 AM   #29
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
Grammatically speaking, I think he means Yoshinkan practitioners want to re-legitimize aikido among martial artists rather than among dancers.
How will that be accomplished?

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Old 09-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #30
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

A dance move is any technique that requires an uke to work. Every Aikido practitioner needs to know the difference, for their own safety.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:51 AM   #31
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Here's George Ledyard on this issue (follows). It's from an old thread here, but I can't get the normal QUOTE function to work here:

"...It's not at all difficult to know when things are martially ineffective. Aikido practice is highly stylized. So the first sign of martial ineffectiveness is when the folks in the dojo can't even make their waza work under the controlled circumstances of practice.

Irimi is at the heart of all martial application. If you go to a dojo and no one can enter without you hitting them, the practice is ineffective. That's my first test... I frequently arrive at dojos to teach and find that not a single student can pull off an irimi when I attack. That's because I REALLY attack. at the majority of the dojos I see around, the students are not really trying to strike their partners. If everyone trains that way day after day, they think they know how to do things they really cannot do. As Frank Doran Sensei says, the "entry" is everything, everything else is just icing on the cake.

I think that the "entry" is the most neglected aspect of Aikido training. I sell a lot of Aikido DVD's. I have a set I call the Principles of Aiki set. Vol. 2 is just on "Entries". I sell fewer of those than the others. I am convinced that this is because people see the title and say to themselves "I know how to do that..."

Anyway, it's a shock when a bunch of third or fourth dans, or even worse, someone running a dojo, finds that they can't do an entry. They can know 500 techniques and without effective irimi, it's just 500 techniques they cannot do.

The second thing one can spot at a dojo at which the practice is clearly martially ineffective is closely related to the above. Can the students at the dojo strike? With speed, with power? If not, then the practice is being done at unrealistically slow speed. People will not be able to adjust when it gets fast and hard.

What does the "intention" feel like during practice. Once again, you can look at the folks in many dojos and see that they have no projection, no forward intention. You can stand in front of them and feel nothing. They have no idea how to organize a strong forward flow of attention. If you attack them fast, or God forbid, with unexpected timing, they are never ready. You can stand in front of someone like this and know you will hit them before you even start.

One of my students gave me a book on the theory of limits as applied to business. While being over my head math-wise after about three chapters, I got the gist of it. It changed my thinking about how we teach our art. The theory of limits says that in any complex system, like a factory (and Aikido is also a complex system of body / mind skills), one needs to analyze the various elements that go into producing the output of the factory and decide which one is the "limiting factor". You can throw all sorts of money and resources into that factory and have no increase in the production whatever if you don't devote them to improving the "limiting factor".

So, in my opinion, most Aikido practice is done without any regard to this idea. People are studying a wide range of techniques, empty hand and weapons, putting all sorts of time and money into their training with almost no increase in actual skill from year to year because they have not addressed the limiting factor in their Aikido.

For the majority of the folks I see training, the limiting factor is the lack of ability or willingness to train with attacks which have speed and power. Strikes have no body integration and hence no actual power. Grabs tend to be "strong" in a way that is totally ineffective. A grab should be designed to effect the partner's balance and his ability to respond. Turning your partner's hand purple by grabbing really hard has no martial effectiveness whatever and is probably making you tight in a way that limits your ability to move freely.

So collectively, I would put all of this under the label of "attacks". Problems with the "attack" is the limiting factor for most Aikido folks. There is simply no possible way for someone to get to any level beyond the rudimentary without addressing this issue. Period. 50% of ones training is in the role of "uke". All sorts of attention is put on the ability to take the fall, very little is put on the actual attack.

Now, that said, fixing this issue is still no guarantee of "martial effectiveness" outside the dojo. But the idea that only combat will tell you anything simply isn't the case. Physical conflict runs through a whole range from a drunk guy shoving you at a bar to two or three fellows with guns confronting you on the street. There innumerable stories of folks with only moderate skills, developed in their dojo environments, using their Aikido "effectively" for self defense on the street. The reason for this is that most attackers out in the real world are not formally trained in anything. Many are simply incompetent. Dangerous perhaps, but not very sophisticated.

Combat is all out, life or death. Most folks will never have to use their Aikido in combat. That doesn't mean that one can't train for martial effectiveness. Do you want to know whether you are "martially effective"? Go up to your local mixed martial arts gym and see about applying what you've worked on in the dojo. Personally, I don't actually care about this issue, but young men often wonder if their stuff "works" and this is a good way to find out. The uchi deshi used to wonder the same thing... they'd go out to the local bars and get in fights, often with the soldiers from the occupation. That's a good way to find out of you can do your Aikido against folks who have no formal training. Of course you might get injured, killed or just plain arrested doing this, but it will tell you something.

Anyway, my feeling is that people need to fix how they train in the dojo and get it to the point at which it actually works within the stylized framework of Aikido itself before they need to start worrying about "combat application" or "martial effectiveness". These discussions are off mark most of the time, I think. Find the "limiting factor" in your training and fix it. Then find the new "limiting factor" and fix that. Progress will result and eventually you will be good at what you do. Then, if you want to experiment with non-traditional applications, go ahead. Folks who worry about this too early in their training typically do not get very good."
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:05 PM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

I just checked out a couple of Yoshinkan videos. To me it doesn't seem any more or less effective than any other style of Aikido. It look a little tense and not as blendy as some styles of Aikido. I don't see how it is any more martially effective.

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Old 09-25-2013, 04:47 PM   #33
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Mary, you have been around long enough to know checking out a couple of videos doesn't give you any answers. Yoshinkan dojos vary somewhat, and I wouldn't speak for anyone but myself, or claim that we are the final word in self defense- We had a senior instructor from Birankai just practice with us for a year and we learned a ton from him. But in my dojo, we are free to say, "This isn't working!" So we are not reinforcing bad habits. I am certain that makes a big difference.

Regardless, the most important thing I am trying to underscore here is that IF you have ANY impracticality in your technique, it's the dojo's solemn obligation to make sure you know. That's how we find our "limiting factor" (s) and improve. And when I say "we" I mean our practice group.

I would prefer no one finds any insult in that, but if they do I think it's worth it to deliver that message. We ALL have weaknesses. Myself included, but I am working hard to define and eliminate them. Please make sure your's don't take you by surprise. You never know when trouble will find you.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 09-25-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:30 PM   #34
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

By being aware and present you can be less likely to be taken by surprise. Living a conscious way keeps us safer while we stay positive.

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Old 09-25-2013, 08:09 PM   #35
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

There is only one way to know if your aikido works in the case of a real attack, and that is to hang around in a shady part of town until someone attacks you. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no one in this thread has done that, and that therefore that a style vs. style effectiveness argument has nowhere to go but down.

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Old 09-25-2013, 10:03 PM   #36
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:43 PM   #37
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Stumbling onto a situation where someone is getting beaten up and intervening might be a more plausible way of knowing. You tend not to realize what really happened until it's over and you start recounting it.

If you trained right and your body did what it was supposed to, things turned out well. "If your Aikido works", things may have even turned out acceptably well for the bad guy, since he got submitted instead of beaten to a pulp.

The OP was not style vs. style. It was about the relevance of individual techniques. When I post a question about martial application on a martial art forum, I assume it's going to go somewhere, or the website wouldn't exist. If I'm wrong, what are we doing here?
You're right: the OP wasn't about style vs. style. But this conversation shows signs of going in that direction, and I think no good can come of it.

In general, I dislike discussion about using aikido waza against "bad guys", because those of us who have never attempted such a thing (that is, most of us) don't really know what we're talking about.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 09-25-2013 at 11:58 PM.

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Old 09-26-2013, 12:39 AM   #38
Brett Charvat
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
The OP was not style vs. style.
-- Really? Then one wonders why you, the OP, first referred to certain aikido styles as "dance styles," while the more MARTIAL styles (presumably, your own Yoshinkan) are in contrast "re-legitimizing aikido as a martial art" (again, your words). I'll ask again, since you refused to answer previously; exactly which styles of aikido are the "dance styles" and which ones will focus on MARTIALNESS instead? I just want to know, so I don't piss my money away on silly dancing. Thanks in advance!!
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:28 AM   #39
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

What about waza to use against good guys?

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Old 09-26-2013, 11:56 AM   #40
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What about waza to use against good guys?
beeriu waza following with chicken wing waza along with sushi waza.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #41
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
-- Really? Then one wonders why you, the OP, first referred to certain aikido styles as "dance styles," while the more MARTIAL styles (presumably, your own Yoshinkan) are in contrast "re-legitimizing aikido as a martial art" (again, your words). I'll ask again, since you refused to answer previously; exactly which styles of aikido are the "dance styles" and which ones will focus on MARTIALNESS instead? I just want to know, so I don't piss my money away on silly dancing. Thanks in advance!!
This is the original post of this thread:
Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Solid, martial techniques for me- Hiji Shime, Ude Garami, lots of Ikka jo (Ikkyo) and of course Irimi Nage. Working on my Kote Gaeshi for vs. weapon. I didn't used to think Shiho Nage, but lately...
See, irimi doesn't demand a committed attack to work, but if it's there, it's almost effortless.
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:57 PM   #42
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

So ... you refuse to answer?
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:25 PM   #43
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
So ... you refuse to answer?
If I want to insult someone I have better ways.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 09-26-2013 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Added a smirky bit about tenkan, then decided against it.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:33 PM   #44
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
...the most important thing I am trying to underscore here is that IF you have ANY impracticality in your technique, it's the dojo's solemn obligation to make sure you know. That's how we find our "limiting factor" (s) and improve. And when I say "we" I mean our practice group.

I would prefer no one finds any insult in that, but if they do I think it's worth it to deliver that message. We ALL have weaknesses. Myself included, but I am working hard to define and eliminate them. Please make sure your's don't take you by surprise. You never know when trouble will find you.
I would agree it's important to have and convey realistic expectations as a teacher...crucial to the task, even. A problem is that so many people have different ideas on what constitutes "sufficient." By my low-level reckoning, my movement is sufficient enough to generally handle your average person, but against a well-fought individual I'm hopeful to get lucky enough to create space for me to run before I take a hard hit or are otherwise solidly locked into grappling range. What that set of words means is still going to vary from person to person based on their perception of what seems "average." When we add comparisons of study it gets even stickier.
As for waza I think of as likely to present itself, I like atemi, sankyo, kotegaeshi, and juji nage, but when I'm training with the mindset of being "strong against" an attacker I'm usually just cutting (kiri) and thrusting (tsuki) and thinking of "filling" my structure (how to make "everything irimi" when I move)...and slipping/entering (footwork) to the rear. If I can get there, I usually have more time/options.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-26-2013 at 04:36 PM.

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Old 09-26-2013, 07:24 PM   #45
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
As for waza I think of as likely to present itself, I like atemi, sankyo, kotegaeshi, and juji nage, but when I'm training with the mindset of being "strong against" an attacker I'm usually just cutting (kiri) and thrusting (tsuki) and thinking of "filling" my structure (how to make "everything irimi" when I move)...and slipping/entering (footwork) to the rear. If I can get there, I usually have more time/options.
I like this. It's not how we practice, but I like the conceptual doctrine. There's something to be said for mental constructs. Do you feel it improves your effectiveness?
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:02 PM   #46
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

After reading the book that was the subject of this thread:
Master Minoru Mochizuki's Book?,
I would say that hachi-mawashi (鉢回し) seems like a good contender for a martially efficient technique!
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:20 PM   #47
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Tore Eriksson wrote: View Post
I would say that hachi-mawashi (鉢回し) seems like a good contender for a martially efficient technique!
Hey, thanks! Now we know what "coconut grab" is really called!

And, btw.. Awww Yeaaaah.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:38 PM   #48
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I like this. It's not how we practice, but I like the conceptual doctrine. There's something to be said for mental constructs. Do you feel it improves your effectiveness?
I think so...a little at least. It's part of my meager training/approach, which includes a more technical view too. Ironically, it helps keep me out of my mind and more into feeling what my body is doing and responding to that. Otherwise I tend to create a mental timeline of expectations that usually leaves me a step behind. At least if I focus on "cutting and expanding" I find I tend to connect a little better and maintain positive pressure more often than when I think "do ikkyo."

Thinking about this a bit more, I also really like the Shodokan basic 17 randori waza for their general effectiveness; the atemi waza in particular. Things like gedan ate and ushiro ate (which is what I was specifically thinking of when I mentioned footwork and getting behind aite) seem to lend themselves well to setting up a lot of possibilities.

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Old 09-27-2013, 02:38 PM   #49
James Sawers
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

My waza, if it can be called that, is that I try to think of not thinking, which for me is hard. But when my "witness" identifies a thought (pattern) that caused a blockage, which caused, in turn, a problem/weakness in my technique, I try to correct that. Takes constant monitoring.
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Old 09-27-2013, 04:18 PM   #50
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What Aikido waza are you practicing for bad guys?

Quote:
James Sawers wrote: View Post
My waza, if it can be called that, is that I try to think of not thinking, which for me is hard. But when my "witness" identifies a thought (pattern) that caused a blockage, which caused, in turn, a problem/weakness in my technique, I try to correct that. Takes constant monitoring.
In Japan, they have a superstition that if you think of a monkey when you take medicine, the medicine will not work. Of course, that makes it impossible not to think of a monkey as soon as you come down with something. You definitely can't use thoughts to get rid of thinking.

Focus intensely on now and don't abandon the present, which is what human nature demands. Your ego wants to be anywhere beside in the middle of a conflict. Stay in the moment and notice (witness). Your body is going to do whatever you've been practicing (your waza) as long as you get out of the way.
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