Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-25-2013, 07:01 AM   #26
ChrisMikk
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I wonder what aikido would look like, what it would be called if Japan had won the Pacific War? Or if they had been successful in negotiating a peace with the United States in 1942 as Admiral Yamamoto hoped. Obviously any opinion would be mere speculation, but to me an interesting thought after reading Amdur sensei's book.
Probably it would look like old style Yoshinkan with people trying to bash each other around.

Note that Funakoshi Gichin wrote in the first edition of his karate manual that karate was a good implement for 'Japanese-ifying' conquered people. This seems to have actually happened in Korea. In a series of articles in the old Dragon Arts magazine, Robert Dohrenwend has pretty cleary showed that Tae Kwon Do is simply Shotokan Karate taught to the Koreans during the Japanese occupation, and obviously Korean kumdo is just Japanese kendo. So, this is what the future would have looked like with a triumphant Japan--we would all be doing martial arts--just as we're doing now!!

クリス の 合気ブログ Kyoto Kenshusei
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 08:07 AM   #27
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
Probably it would look like old style Yoshinkan with people trying to bash each other around.

Note that Funakoshi Gichin wrote in the first edition of his karate manual that karate was a good implement for 'Japanese-ifying' conquered people. This seems to have actually happened in Korea. In a series of articles in the old Dragon Arts magazine, Robert Dohrenwend has pretty cleary showed that Tae Kwon Do is simply Shotokan Karate taught to the Koreans during the Japanese occupation, and obviously Korean kumdo is just Japanese kendo. So, this is what the future would have looked like with a triumphant Japan--we would all be doing martial arts--just as we're doing now!!
Some of us make a point of avoiding the Imperialized martial arts. Bleh!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 08:24 AM   #28
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Oh, I think I understand what the world would have looked like. My interest here was really about aikido specifically. O Sensei was apparently an ultra-nationalist before the war and certainly associated with folks so inclined. After the war he seemed to adopt this more loving and harmonious persona. I just wonder if that would have been the case if Japan had not lost the war. Obviously this is a question that can't be answered, but I wonder what the old leopard's spots would look like. He was certainly a spiritual character before the war and until his death, but that didn't stop him from his ultra-national politics in the pre-war period.
Osensei was just caught up in the thinking and spirit of the times. Most people in Japan thought the efforts to use an expanded military to conquer all of Asia was a good and noble goal.

The fact that Osensei's teachings changed after the war is pretty profound. He may not have thrown his nefarious associates under the bus as we'd prefer from where we are, but I believe he really struggled with the issues of what was right, wrong, and a mistake.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 09:00 AM   #29
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,121
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Perhaps he was just caught up in the thinking of the times just as many of the citizens were. With his associations with people in leadership positions, my thinking was that while he wasn't a prime mover, he helped forge the thinking. I suppose my real underlying question was did he change his thinking, or did he behave like a modern American politician and find a way of presenting himself in a better light? It doesn't matter much seventy years later I guess. What he transmitted in the post-war years is what we have to one extent or another. It doesn't appear that he was anything but a rather small cog in the Japanese war machine of the time. At least we have aikido today, regardless of what his real thinking was. And maybe he did change and maybe he did regret his earlier contributions and learned from them.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 09:03 AM   #30
tamthebam
Dojo: Hokushinkan
Location: glasgow
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I think you are misunderstanding Cliff. He's not suggesting we "declare our Aikido adequate and not pursue the depths of Aikido's possibility"; he's suggesting that the way aikido has supposedly evolved away from its starting point (that is, Ueshiba) might be a good thing.
I don't think the fact that only a handful of his early students ever APPROACHED his level of skill ( never mind us guys!) could ever be considered a good thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 09:21 AM   #31
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Thomas Madden wrote: View Post
I don't think the fact that only a handful of his early students ever APPROACHED his level of skill ( never mind us guys!) could ever be considered a good thing.
That is not unique among the Aiki arts. Takeda had thousands of students, but we mostly remember Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa.

I would call this a fault of Ueshiba for either not understanding how to create a system to pass his skills on, or not wanting to pass his skills on. This is essentially why I think chasing Ueshiba's skills directly is basically a cheeky endeavor.

But the other thing to remember is that a thing like Ueshiba's skills, of which we have mostly biased first-hand accounts, is apt to be inflated in power and import over time. Ueshiba is literally a legend.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 10:37 AM   #32
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
There would have been generations of brutality and oppression of Koreans, Chinese, Fillipinos, etc, is pretty much a guarantee. And Russia would have had to do something about having a huge expansive neighbor sharing the Asian continent.
Included in the etc are the Indonesians, Malaysians, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Burmese, Papua New Guineans and others... Since I am Filipino, I shudder at the thought...

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 11:04 AM   #33
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Thomas Madden wrote: View Post
I don't think the fact that only a handful of his early students ever APPROACHED his level of skill ( never mind us guys!) could ever be considered a good thing.
That, of course, presumes that one believes that Ueshiba's skill has not and is unlikely to be achieved.

We can never truly know, certainly, but the more experienced I get, the more I understand principles, the more video I watch and then contrast and compare to old footage (particularly when slowed down to the correct speed), the more I am inclined to believe that Ueshiba's skill level, while very good, is highly exaggerated and has long since been surpassed, maybe even by a lot, by a number of people (and probably was even while he was still alive).

And.

Big deal.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 11:33 AM   #34
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 845
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Representation and leadership are not necessary conjoined traits. Nor are competence and management. I think part of this conversation concerns the dissolution of O Sensei as a ideological or moral idol. I think part of this conversation concerns the role of management of the aikikai and how the aikikai community veiled some aspects of O Sensei's life.

First, I think you have to separate O Sensei personally from aikido. I recall (but cannot recount where) several instances of his personally making a religious claim about himself and that personal claim was separate from a professional claim he made about aikido. Something like, "Aikido isn't a religion. I mean, sure, I am a living god and a religious zealot, but aikido isn't."

Second, I think you have to separate O Sensei as a figurehead from O Sensei as a martial artist. I cannot imagine the political tightrope of the aikikai managing occupied Tokyo while being tied to a political person of interest.

I think we built a figurehead beyond his capacity and now we have to deal with some measure of disillusionment as we realize he was not the person we romanticized. I think much of the romantic notion was designed upon a pseudo-religious cult conditioning and delivered with some propaganda attractive to the masses.

All of this is probably at least helpful, if not productive, in re-examining O Sensei without the veil and re-examining some of his teachings without the religious perspective translated into the message.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 07:28 PM   #35
OwlMatt
 
OwlMatt's Avatar
Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Thomas Madden wrote: View Post
I don't think the fact that only a handful of his early students ever APPROACHED his level of skill ( never mind us guys!) could ever be considered a good thing.
First of all, that's an opinion, not a fact. Second, you just described the career of every martial arts master ever.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2013, 08:51 PM   #36
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 507
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
he more I am inclined to believe that Ueshiba's skill level, while very good, is highly exaggerated and has long since been surpassed, maybe even by a lot, by a number of people (and probably was even while he was still alive).
Hi Tarik - wondering who is on your list. I'm thinking maybe Tamura (Nobuyoshi) and Sunadomari, after O-sensei's death. While he was alive... I don't know. Shioda? Shirata?

And, more closely on-track:

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
4. He worked at the Nakano Spy School, teaching people how to kill, and stopped, not because of his horror at the idea, but because his methods were not considered useful enough
Hi Ellis -
I enjoyed HIPS and am looking forward to getting the 2nd edition of Dueling. But as of yet, I haven't read it, so maybe that is more called for than a reply here. But anyway:

I thought I'd read interviews where folks suggest that he did become unhappy with the idea of promoting killing of the opponent during the war. Maybe in your view such comments are more wishful thinking than historically accurate? Sorry I can't find a citation.
One thing I am excited about, regarding the contents of Dueling with O-sensei, is the possibility that he was not truly in favor of the war, but went along with it anyway because he felt he "had to" in some sense. For instance, in Chris' translation of this interview with Okumura:
Quote:
Shigenobu Okumura wrote:
O-Sensei also followed the teachings of Omoto (Omoto-kyo), and there was something called "The Budo of the Gods does not kill" ("jinbu fusatsu" / 神武不殺). However, at that time he couldn't say such things. ...[Later,] he said "I was rebuked by the gods. They told me start over from the beginning! The Budo that kills is prohibited!"
Sunadomari also said the Omoto folks secretly felt anti-war. At any rate, I guess it is hard to discuss the idea that a person "secretly" felt a certain way. If Japan hadn't lost, no one would come out with such "secrets," so it's hard to put much stock into this.

But still, it is a possibility. I could see him going along with things, and maintaining friendships/associations that presented themselves, just because that's how the Kami willed things to happen. (Rather than because it is something he wished for.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 12:56 AM   #37
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 809
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

My understanding of the Nakano Spy School situation is based on several things:
1. the accounts of the karateka - specifically Egami - they wanted Funakoshi Gigo to teach, and it was decided that "plausible deniability" was in order, so several of his disciples went instead. It was the Nakano schools decision. And actually, the Nakano school were far from the most violent minded. They actually had the ideal of minimal force for maximum effect - more similar to the American army's special forces.
2. Ueshiba did not retire at that time. He continued teaching at other military establishments for some time afterwards.
3. Yes, people said all kinds of things about Ueshiba's motivations, and interestingly, their Osensei conformed exactly to their own philosophy/worldview.
4. The assertion that Omoto-kyo was a peaceful/pacifist religion does not conform to the facts. They may not have wanted WWII, at least in the way it was prosecuted, but they very definitely were sponsors of terrorism, and fully involved with various war-supporting political factions.

I can well believe that Ueshiba was in in favor of - or enthusiastic about WWII, as it developed. He well could have been bright enough to know that taking on the US was a loser's game. But as for Japan's taking over Manchuria? And other depredations in China? He was far too close to Okawa, the sponsor-and an intellectual creator- of such actions to assume he opposed them.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #38
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Tarik - wondering who is on your list. I'm thinking maybe Tamura (Nobuyoshi) and Sunadomari, after O-sensei's death. While he was alive... I don't know. Shioda? Shirata?
Besides modern exponents, some of the suggestive evidence is available in the material already presented, in video and in writing, but I'd rather not.

It is an interesting exercise from the point of view of learning to understand and see principles being demonstrated. The more time I spend training, the more cues I learn to pick up watching, feeling, discussing, and trying with my teachers, sempai, peers, and my own students. But it's off topic here, just my opinion, and the makings a of flame war. We're relatively local, maybe in person, at some clinic or pub somewhere, we can make these speculations with less of the above.

But most specifically, I don't think it's very important except in the sense that building Ueshiba up is very important to some people's aikido practice and/or world view as if what they were pursuing was not otherwise worthy IN IT'S OWN RIGHT regardless of it's exact relation to what Ueshiba was saying or doing, except as a historical curiosity.

I think being aware of more of Ueshiba's humanity doesn't take away from the message of modern aikido, but I know from that some people cannot stand the idea of their savior or avatar being human. I also think that was mostly his son's message and personal take on his father's life and message and that it probably evolved that way explicitly because of the way the world stage was playing out at the time, more than any other reason.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 10:31 AM   #39
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
But most specifically, I don't think it's very important except in the sense that building Ueshiba up is very important to some people's aikido practice and/or world view as if what they were pursuing was not otherwise worthy IN IT'S OWN RIGHT
May be it isn't.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 11:00 AM   #40
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
May be it isn't.
Your meaning is unclear.

You could be agreeing or disagreeing. Just out of curiosity, which is it?

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 01:07 PM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Your meaning is unclear.
Well, considering the many flaws of aikido (as martial art, as path of personal betterment, as technology of the self, as fitness method, etc.) maybe what's left worth is the futile pursuit of the fabrication named Morihei Ueshiba: holy man and extraordinary martial artist.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 01:19 PM   #42
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, considering the many flaws of aikido (as martial art, as path of personal betterment, as technology of the self, as fitness method, etc.) maybe what's left worth is the futile pursuit of the fabrication named Morihei Ueshiba: holy man and extraordinary martial artist.
Ah, now I follow. Thanks.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 01:20 PM   #43
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You are absolutely correct about people expressing their opinions on a discussion forum.
Nonsense! I never express my own opinions.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 02:36 PM   #44
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,835
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Just as a heads-up, some posts in this thread have been deleted as they went against some of the points delineated in the "AikiWeb Rules of Conduct" announcement.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2013, 03:01 PM   #45
Andy Kazama
 
Andy Kazama's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Atlanta
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 39
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Regarding the claims of fantastical abilities: I am willing to forgive O'Sensei for some of the things his students may have said about him because the bottom line is that when he was alive, he was more than willing to back things up in person. Please do not take this as a commentary on modern aikido! Seems like quite a few "Origin Stories" of some of the greats began with first-hand accounts of truly trying to test O'Sensei. I recently had a similar aikido experience with a certain instructor (who we just got word will be coming back to ATL in Jan. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23008) <--(sales pitch ). I was always super curious to see how much of O'Sensei's purported skills could actually be done by a living human being, and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised! Point is, I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge O'Sensei based on the stories people told about him. This is why I am so thankful for those with the expertise and generosity to dig through the historical records and parse out the fact from fiction.

Aikido South
(Facebook Page)
The basic fundamentals, refined to perfection, are your most advanced techniques.
-Bill Koll (1923-2003)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 02:57 PM   #46
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 507
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Tarik- I figured you might answer that way
I actually was going to PM not post, but then I thought, if he's going to post that comment to the public forum, then I'm going to follow up on the forum. Pushing the boundaries of the public forum is always good. Would love to meet up some day-- thinking about the Santa Cruz book celebrations.

Ellis- Thanks for the clear reply, I understand and am with you regarding retrospective declarations of anti-war foresight and wishes. Looking forward to that 2nd edition!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2013, 06:28 PM   #47
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 514
United_States
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Tarik- I figured you might answer that way
I actually was going to PM not post, but then I thought, if he's going to post that comment to the public forum, then I'm going to follow up on the forum. Pushing the boundaries of the public forum is always good.
I'd love to talk about it publicly, it's just that long experience tells me that that kind of discussion degrades quickly.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Would love to meet up some day-- thinking about the Santa Cruz book celebrations.
I'm no longer a member at that dojo, but I'd go anyway if I were in town. I'm taking a long weekend and heading to Dallas for one of my organizations bi-annual koshukai training sessions.

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Ellis- Thanks for the clear reply, I understand and am with you regarding retrospective declarations of anti-war foresight and wishes. Looking forward to that 2nd edition!
Ditto.

Best regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 07:53 AM   #48
tamthebam
Dojo: Hokushinkan
Location: glasgow
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
That is not unique among the Aiki arts. Takeda had thousands of students, but we mostly remember Ueshiba, Horikawa, and Sagawa.

I would call this a fault of Ueshiba for either not understanding how to create a system to pass his skills on, or not wanting to pass his skills on. This is essentially why I think chasing Ueshiba's skills directly is basically a cheeky endeavor.

But the other thing to remember is that a thing like Ueshiba's skills, of which we have mostly biased first-hand accounts, is apt to be inflated in power and import over time. Ueshiba is literally a legend.
The names you mention all had aiki which is nowhere to be seen in modern aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 02:46 PM   #49
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,112
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Thomas Madden wrote: View Post
The names you mention all had aiki which is nowhere to be seen in modern aikido.
Dear Thomas,
On what basis do you make this statement? I have met Shihan who I would suggest had /have aiki . By the way what dojo do you practice in?I am originally from Glasgow[Brigton/Bridgeton.I started Aikido with Slim Coyle /George Girvan /Andy Henderson.Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2013, 02:56 PM   #50
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,112
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Osensei's Feet of Clay

Quote:
Thomas Madden wrote: View Post
The names you mention all had aiki which is nowhere to be seen in modern aikido.
Dear Thomas,
Just checked out your profile.I note you train with Matt Holland. I have known him for donkeys years. We both trained with Slim Coyle . He continued training with Kanetsuka Sensei , I chose a different teacher.We have not met for a number of years.Tell him I was asking for him. Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photograph of O-sensei's feet? HL1978 Internal Training in Aikido 23 02-19-2013 11:23 PM
Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido? Lee Crockett Training 294 03-12-2012 08:05 PM
Fat Aikido Feet? seele Humor 13 08-21-2009 11:27 AM
O'Sensei's Videos John Matsushima General 13 07-02-2008 11:33 AM
O'Sensei's Aikido Erik General 7 08-29-2000 07:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:12 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate