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Old 09-01-2013, 08:55 PM   #26
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

Just a small addition, but the picture below shows the position I like to end up in with Shiho-nage. Contrast this with Kanai sensei and you will see it is quite different.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/...-shihonage.jpg
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:46 AM   #27
PaulF
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

We're encouraged to end up looking into uke's ear, at full perpendicular, and to cut straight down our centre line, since this is where their point of imbalance is and if we try to throw uke to their rear they can just walk backwards to resist, or perform kaeshiwaza. However, I've seen a lot of senior grades project in different directions and I suspect this is one of those cases where there's a big difference between the precise theory and the practice when using a good uke who can take a variety of falls.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:25 AM   #28
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

For ichi (linear): Strike your uke and get a firm wrist lock. Get low as you step through. Keep the torque of the wrist lock applied. Don't be afraid to use both hands and keep them right in front of your face. Make sure you can always see your hands as you change direction. Do not allow any slack to develop on the wrist lock. Stand tall and straighten your arm(s) as you touch uke's fingers to his shoulder blade. Now, touch uke's fingers to the ground next to your ankle. Deliver your finishing strike. Do all those and you will have a very powerful Shihonage.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:08 AM   #29
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
For ichi (linear): Strike your uke and get a firm wrist lock. Get low as you step through. Keep the torque of the wrist lock applied. Don't be afraid to use both hands and keep them right in front of your face. Make sure you can always see your hands as you change direction. Do not allow any slack to develop on the wrist lock. Stand tall and straighten your arm(s) as you touch uke's fingers to his shoulder blade. Now, touch uke's fingers to the ground next to your ankle. Deliver your finishing strike. Do all those and you will have a very powerful Shihonage.
Haha... I was reading this and thinking "this guy does Yoshinkan" before I read the thing under your name that says "Yoshinkan".
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:59 AM   #30
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

It does make a statement. That's not to say Yoshinkan Aikido is without finesse, but it's concerned with perfecting the motions. In my personal view, Ki is the tremendous power of our intention. "I am executing the technique." Saito Sensei, for instance, had some extremely fierce Ki. Tohei often spoke about committing to the execution of a technique.

It's quite remarkable that we have a conscious presence at all. Truly noteworthy. It would be hard to believe that it's effect is limited to what happens inside your head.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:15 PM   #31
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
It does make a statement. That's not to say Yoshinkan Aikido is without finesse, but it's concerned with perfecting the motions. In my personal view, Ki is the tremendous power of our intention. "I am executing the technique." Saito Sensei, for instance, had some extremely fierce Ki. Tohei often spoke about committing to the execution of a technique.

It's quite remarkable that we have a conscious presence at all. Truly noteworthy. It would be hard to believe that it's effect is limited to what happens inside your head.
I agree. I certainly didn't mean to belittle Yoshinkan at all. It's just funny that it is so distinctive that I can tell that you practice it just from your description of shiho-nage.

I actually met Inoue sensei (formerly of Yoshinkan) a few years ago, and I really liked what he had to say about the reasoning behind why the Yoshinkan syllabus is the way it is. It made a lot of sense to me.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:20 AM   #32
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
It's just funny that it is so distinctive that I can tell that you practice it just from your description of shiho-nage.
We laugh about it, too. It's kind of a fraternal joke. There's a hell of a punch in the middle of Sankajo ichi that often gets gasps from students of other lineages.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:03 PM   #33
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Re: Throwing with shionage

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You are likely not getting enough arch on your turn. When you turn, exaggerate the distance you pull uke's hands from his body, this with better break his balance. If done correctly, he should be falling before you even finnish your throw.
The pulling-back shihonage throw will break uke's arm with a spiral fracture. That's a great idea on the battlefield. It's not such a great idea on the mat, or probably even on the street.

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/...shaft_fracture
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:45 PM   #34
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Ki Symbol Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Having trouble throwing with power. I,m throwing more outward than downward if that makes any sense any thoughts.thanks
Maybe you know all of this already, maybe not, but this is a public forum so I'll answer as if any kohai student asked me this. Shihonage is one of my favorites, maybe because I am short. If you are much taller than uke, it will help to get in really good shape so that your core is strong enough to make the squatting pivot movement comfortable and easy. If you lift uke's arm overhead, or bend over instead of squatting to get under uke's arm, you will lose aiki, and power.

You can also try lifting the elbow of the arm uke gives you, during the tenkan movement, by making the first part of ushirotori undo movement of your arms. Draw in a deep breath. (I'm currently working on breath/kokyu power) This movement will lift uke's center and force uke's chest out and head back. If you do this fully, your arm will end up underneath uke's arm, and with aiki, this force will end up partly supporting uke. If you release uke in this situation, uke will fall, straight down, without need to apply any additional power to the throw.

To apply additional power, as you pivot and "wind up" uke's arm, imagine it is a bokken, bringing it up in front of your face, keeping your spine plumb, and execute a shomenuchi cut movement with uke's arm-bokken. Release the drawn up breath. This movement can force uke to take a very high breakfall if you are underneath uke's upper body weight as I have described above, with very little additional power when aiki. It's easier to throw uke shihonage for breakfalls as suwari waza. It's all about raising uke's center/fulcrum and then dropping it suddenly. It only seems like a power throw. Adding power just spins uke's body in midair around his center of gravity.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:06 AM   #35
Janet Rosen
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Jeremy McMillan wrote: View Post
You can also try lifting the elbow of the arm uke gives you, during the tenkan movement, by making the first part of ushirotori undo movement of your arms. Draw in a deep breath. (I'm currently working on breath/kokyu power) This movement will lift uke's center and force uke's chest out and head back. If you do this fully, your arm will end up underneath uke's arm, and with aiki, this force will end up partly supporting uke. If you release uke in this situation, uke will fall, straight down, without need to apply any additional power to the throw.
I like to bring the hand to my forehead, and use the thumb webbing of my other hand to make uke's elbow pivot upward and out like a wheel - as a short person this is a good way for me to float uke upward.
I like the downward release as opposed to the outward release, and keep uke's arm tight against her body then like a small wave breaking over her shoulder curl the hand over and down in front of my center. Like a bokken cut as gentle or as powerful as called for in the moment.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:34 PM   #36
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I like to bring the hand to my forehead, and use the thumb webbing of my other hand to make uke's elbow pivot upward and out like a wheel - as a short person this is a good way for me to float uke upward.
I like the downward release as opposed to the outward release, and keep uke's arm tight against her body then like a small wave breaking over her shoulder curl the hand over and down in front of my center. Like a bokken cut as gentle or as powerful as called for in the moment.
I do this too, sometimes, whenever, for whatever reason, my forearm doesn't match up with uke's forearm.

Apparently this works with munetski irimi tenkan kotegaesh also, encouraging uke to extend, rather than withdraw ki.
http://thinkingmartial.blogspot.com/...at-aikido.html
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Jeremy McMillan wrote: View Post
I do this too, sometimes, whenever, for whatever reason, my forearm doesn't match up with uke's forearm.

Apparently this works with munetski irimi tenkan kotegaesh also, encouraging uke to extend, rather than withdraw ki.
http://thinkingmartial.blogspot.com/...at-aikido.html
If it make uke tense up, not a good idea. If it continues to lead uke to further imbalance, good idea. YMMV depending on uke...

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:28 PM   #38
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

Thanks for all the replies

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #39
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Just a small addition, but the picture below shows the position I like to end up in with Shiho-nage. Contrast this with Kanai sensei and you will see it is quite different.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/media/...-shihonage.jpg
We like to end up more like this picture before we actually execute the throw. http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/sites/...mg/ct64-05.jpg

My instructor would probably tell that guy he needs to stand up a little taller, though...
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:59 AM   #40
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
We like to end up more like this picture before we actually execute the throw. http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/sites/...mg/ct64-05.jpg

My instructor would probably tell that guy he needs to stand up a little taller, though...
Tell O-sensei to stand up straighter? I'd like to see that...
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:40 AM   #41
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Tell O-sensei to stand up straighter? I'd like to see that...
"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.
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Old 09-10-2013, 04:11 PM   #42
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.
the notion of yoshin-orcs have a sense of humor is foreign to us regular aikido folks. it kinda unnatural, and we all know that aikido folks abhored unnatural stuffs. we even go as far as stop discussing aiki, because it's unnatural to aikido. so please stop with the humor so we can be back to the natural order of things, doing do-si-do.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:34 PM   #43
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
"That was a joke, son." You might have guessed I can recognize O Sensei. We Yoshi-orcs are thought to be a little stiff, by many other practitioners.
I know. I'd still like to see it
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:20 AM   #44
Billy Brown
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

I'm afraid everyone is missing the point. You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out. From what I have read O Sensei never explained his techniques....he practiced them with sincerity and honesty
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:36 AM   #45
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Billy Brown wrote: View Post
I'm afraid everyone is missing the point. You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out. From what I have read O Sensei never explained his techniques....he practiced them with sincerity and honesty
As someone who is missing the point, am I correct in interpreting this to mean O-sensei never explained his techniques and yet all of his students who trained diligently were able to emulate him perfectly? I'm not sure that this is the case...
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:12 AM   #46
Malicat
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Haha... I was reading this and thinking "this guy does Yoshinkan" before I read the thing under your name that says "Yoshinkan".
We do it the same way in Wadokai as well. I was reading the description and thought, wow, this is a great way to explain it!

--Ashley
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #47
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

I have a weird feeling that this photo is deceiving. At first glance, it looks like he is driving forward with his head. But take a second and look at the feet: his weight is obviously on his front foot, which would make a forward movement fairly powerless - not typical of O Sensei at all.

I think he is actually pushing off his front foot, dropping back and bouncing uke into the hole that his body is leaving. That would make the head position seem very natural.

I hope uke was feeling sharp that day.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #48
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Billy Brown wrote: View Post
You can talk about this all you want. Do the technique a few thousand times and you'll figure it out.
"We only improve at what we practice correctly." But I still love your quote, and the sentiment behind it.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:48 PM   #49
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I have a weird feeling that this photo is deceiving... his weight is obviously on his front foot, which would make a forward movement fairly powerless - not typical of O Sensei at all.

I think he is actually pushing off his front foot, dropping back and bouncing uke into the hole that his body is leaving. That would make the head position seem very natural...
We are about 60% weighted on the front foot at that point, but our posture is erect and our throwing arm is stiff and angled sharply downward. Uke is falling distinctly downward, moreso than forward. Kind of like Saito Sensei is doing here, but shite is more upright, so uke's back is more parallell to the floor: http://members.aikidojournal.com/wp-...nage-2-uke.jpg
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:54 PM   #50
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Re: Throwing with shihonage

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
As someone who is missing the point, am I correct in interpreting this to mean O-sensei never explained his techniques and yet all of his students who trained diligently were able to emulate him perfectly? I'm not sure that this is the case...
That's some extrapolation. No not at all. There is truth but right and wrong comes down to personal choice,bias, ego etc There are guidelines. The only way to cut to the truth is to practice the technique....alot. Practice practice practice. Everyone is giving great tips but in the end you need to train and discover through training.....Yes the Tengu is in you also. Ganbatte!!!
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