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Old 05-22-2008, 09:43 AM   #26
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

I apologize for butchering the romanized Japanese here:

At the end of our classes, we bow out like Goldsbury Sensei mentioned. Then we shiko dachi down the line of students, each senior student facing and thanking the junior and both bow, saying, "Domo arigato. Gozaya machita." Which means something like, "Thank you for what I have just received."
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:01 AM   #27
dalen7
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I apologize for butchering the romanized Japanese here:

At the end of our classes, we bow out like Goldsbury Sensei mentioned. Then we shiko dachi down the line of students, each senior student facing and thanking the junior and both bow, saying, "Domo arigato. Gozaya machita." Which means something like, "Thank you for what I have just received."
Something about that rings a bell as well - though we dont do the custom that you described. Perhaps I have heard one of the senior students say it before switching partners, or rather after training with a partner. (In fact Im almost sure of this...one guy in particular I believe says this after each person he trains with.)

Thanks, this really helps, I appreciate it.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
When a senior student says this to you after training is there a particular response?
The lower students typically bow...some say "thank you", in Hungarian, - yet in my 5th kyu test we are to learn thank you in Japanese. - So Im assuming I would say arigato gozaj masz...that should be thank you if I got it right. - peace

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-22-2008 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:05 PM   #28
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Ask Professor Goldsbury, but "Domo Arigato" is "Thank you very much."

Someone told me long ago that "Osu" is Japanese for "Hell Yeah!"
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:07 PM   #29
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Someone told me long ago that "Osu" is Japanese for "Hell Yeah!"
If that's the case, that's fricken awesome! I have a whole new mental image forming of the Yoshinkan. I always just assumed it was a simple honorific term.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #30
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
If that's the case, that's fricken awesome! I have a whole new mental image forming of the Yoshinkan. I always just assumed it was a simple honorific term.
Yoshinkan is considered to be a very "hard" style of Aikido. Some Aikidoka think we're masochists, but we're proud of our bruises as long as we earn them.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:26 AM   #31
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Ask Professor Goldsbury, but "Domo Arigato" is "Thank you very much."

Someone told me long ago that "Osu" is Japanese for "Hell Yeah!"
Yes, it looks like I will need some translation.
The one bit of Japanese they have on my testing requirements says:
Koszonom (accent marks missing, but means thank you in Hungarian) is equivalent to arigato gozaj masz.

Definitely not something they will be able to explain, so I think your right - time to ask someone who knows japanese better. (Like Professor Goldsbury)

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:54 AM   #32
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Someone told me long ago that "Osu" is Japanese for "Hell Yeah!"
Sort of. The terse dictionary meaning is (押忍) "greeting used between close male friends; Hi!; yes sir!; yo!" but it's a lot more complicated than that. There's a really good article here: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/20...-usage-of-osu/
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Old 05-23-2008, 04:16 AM   #33
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Yes, it looks like I will need some translation.
The one bit of Japanese they have on my testing requirements says:
Koszonom (accent marks missing, but means thank you in Hungarian) is equivalent to arigato gozaj masz.

Definitely not something they will be able to explain, so I think your right - time to ask someone who knows japanese better. (Like Professor Goldsbury)

Peace

dAlen
Hello dAlen,

You sent me a PM, but I will answer your question here.

Since you asked about the beginning of class, I dod not bother so much about the end, but, of course, it is customary to thank one's partner after training--after each waza, or after the class as a whole.

The basic pattern is Arigatou gozaimashita ありがとうございました, or, if you like some kanji as well: 有り難うございました. This means 'thanks for what has (just) happened' = thank you for training in the last waza / in the class that has just finished.

The addition of doumo どうも adds a certain intensity, as in doumo arigatou gozaimashita and this is what we all say to each other after training in my own dojo. Of course, it comes naturally to my students, who are native Japanese and say it millions of times in their lives--always correctly.

However, Japan has a strictly hierarchical society (especially in budo circles) and there are various subtle nuances to such a basic form of utterance as giving thanks for favours received. So, it would be considered somewhat impolite for a junior to say doumo arigatou to a senior, but it would not be impolite the other way round. A junior can say to a senior either arigatou gozaimashita, or doumo arigatou gozaimashita, but a senior can add the third alternative, which is doumo arigatou. (Doumo or doumo doumo has a different meaning in Japanese.)

Finally, gozaimashita is the past tense of a verb. The present tense is gozaimasu. What is the difference in usage? Well, if you take a train here in Japan, the train conductor will usually thank you for travelling on the train. He / she will say, (makoto ni) arigatou gozaimasu. That is, the journey is just beginning. Just before you get off, the conductor will thank you for having travelled on the train and will say, (makoto ni) arigatou gozaimashita. That is, the journey has almost finished and will shortly become past.

You can safely ignore makoto ni, by the way. It means something like 'sincerely' in English and it would be odd to use it in the dojo.

PAG

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Old 05-23-2008, 04:39 AM   #34
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

One thing I should add to my last post.

I have given you the usage as it exists in my own dojo here in Hiroshima and so I am certain that it is correct Japanese.

In some dojos and organizations outside Japan, I cannot be so certain. So, it is true that arigatou gozaimasu means thank you, but it is also true that arigatou gozaimashita also means thank you. If your Hungarian instructor has not learned much Japanese and does not know that there are two forms, he might correct you.

There is a tendency outside Japan to be more Roman than the Pope and sometimes the terms sempai and kohai are used quite differently from how they would be used in Japan.

Personally, I would never fail a student for not being able to count, or not being able to remember the names of the waza. My Japanese students, also, have enormous difficulty in remembering the names (in Japanese!!) and they live and breathe the language all the time. If you were taking a test in my dojo and did not remember the name, we would switch to English and/or get up and show you. It is what you did next that would matter.

However, there is also a saying in Japan: 郷に入れば郷に従え: gou ni ireba gou ni shitagae. If you live in a village, obey the (customs of) the village. Or, when in Rome...

PAG

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Old 05-23-2008, 04:48 AM   #35
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
A junior can say to a senior either arigatou gozaimashita, or doumo arigatou gozaimashita, but a senior can add the third alternative, which is doumo arigatou. (Doumo or doumo doumo has a different meaning in Japanese.)
Peter, Thank you so much... - I believe I finally got it!

Whats funny is now I also see what was going on with the terms they listed. They wrote the japanese in the form in the way it would be pronounced in Hungarian (through me off at first, I didnt realize it was written phonetically in Hungarian. i.e., arigato gozaj masz.)

But after reading your detailed post, it cleared that bit up to.

Again, many thanks for the detailed explanation.

Peace

dAlen

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
However, there is also a saying in Japan: 郷に入れば郷に従え: gou ni ireba gou ni shitagae. If you live in a village, obey the (customs of) the village. Or, when in Rome...

PAG
Very true indeed.
Thanks again.

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-23-2008 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:19 AM   #36
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
We we bow this time, we say "Onegai-shimasu" (I sometimes use the more honorific Onegai itashimasu.) That's it.
What does Onegai-shimasu mean? (Forgive me if I somehow have overlooked it, but I went back through the thread and didnt see the meaning.)

As well, there was another version of this offered which was:
Dozo yoroshiku onegai-shimasu. I am curious to know what this means as well.

Just a couple more hours until training and Ill be listening to see what it is we say.

Thank you -

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:15 AM   #37
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
What does Onegai-shimasu mean? (Forgive me if I somehow have overlooked it, but I went back through the thread and didnt see the meaning.)

As well, there was another version of this offered which was:
Dozo yoroshiku onegai-shimasu. I am curious to know what this means as well.

Just a couple more hours until training and Ill be listening to see what it is we say.

Thank you -

Peace

dAlen
Hello dAlen,

The most appropriate translation for onegai-shimasu in a dojo would be something like, 'Let us help each other in the best way of which we are capable, according to our respective knowledge and capabilities.' So, if you, as a would-be 5th kyuu, happen to train with an 8th dan, the greeting would apply to both of you.

Dozo yoroshiku onegai shimasu is way, way over the top in a typical dojo. It might be okay for Doshu at Kagami-biraki, but not for anyone in a typical dojo during daily training. So, if I am reelected as IAF Chairman, I would probably go to Doshu and say to him, Korekara mo douzo yoroshiku onegai shimasu, which would mean something like, From now (from my election), let us help each other (in our respective spheres) over the next few years. But I would say this to Doshu only because I am a prominent member of a large federation closely related to the Aikikai. It would make no sense to say this before practising each waza in a typical dojo.

In Japan we exchange nenga-jo, or New Year greeting cards. Sometimes lazier students of mine who are trying to ensure that they will receive a passing grade send me nengajo with the full greeting. which means something like, 'Please continue to take a favorable view of my situation, especially in the examination period, when it is time to give, or withhold, credits for your course.' I am usually unmoved by such requests.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:50 AM   #38
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

Thanks again Peter for your time & answer(s).

Nice to be able to begin to see the bigger picture.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:03 PM   #39
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

So I showed my requirement sheet - which has many scribbles on it now on the 5th kyu page - and pointed to two options of how to say the beginning 'chant' when we bow.

Well, after asking our 2nd kyu (soon to be 1st), it appeared that both were o.k...which didnt make sense.(You dont do the chant randomly do you?) So I showed our 1st kyu (soon to be shodan) and he said the latter.

And sure enough, my ears were wide open and I listened extremely carefully and the latter won!

Oh, the winner phrase was: Onegaishimasu.
Dont know why I thought it sounded longer before.
Perhaps because no one is in unison and it really is a mumble...like listening to a low rumble of thunder.

I want to say I thank everyone for participating in the thread - Peter I appreciate your detailed explanation - because we are not consistent in how we do things, so knowing what the traditional method of doing/saying things are is quite nice.

With that, I suppose this thread comes to an end - of course it can keep going, but the answer has fully come around along with some nice information to make the whole picture fuller.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:37 AM   #40
Lloyd Heggestad
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

This was interesting reading. I'm sorry to see it end. One glimpses the personalities and characters of the posters in their words here.

Personally, I have difficulty understanding my 15-year-old son's speech. As Dalen intimated, it requires effort to connect mentally.

In the dojo I attend we use the Japanese phrase, but we are not tested on it. More out of respect for tradition, I think. Most of us say it by rote, rather than because we have any clue as to what we are saying. No doubt we butcher it beyond recognition. But we are connecting mentally despite our poor enunciation, so it's all good.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:14 PM   #41
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Re: Japanese Aikido Prayer at beginning of class

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dalen7 wrote: View Post
Sorry if this is well known...did a search and didnt see it.

But at the beginning of class, when everyone is in sieza and they bow to O'Sensei, they mumble something (like a low chant) and stop.
Its real quick.

What are they saying?
(Translation would be nice, but I believe I will need to know & learn to say this in Japanese for my next test. I will also need to learn to count to 10 in Japanese, as well as say some basic Japanese words as well...which the latter I have on paper to learn from, and the former - numbers- I should be able to find on the internet.)

No one has told me what it is, or rather how to say the chant...and the low mumble I cant make out heads or tails what they are saying in Japanese...I would ask, but my Hungarian isnt much better.

I know it may sound strange, but the instructor doesnt necessarily go over the requirements for the test...in fact i got a requirement sheet off of another student...of which does not have the japanese text/chant for me, anyway...)

Peace

dAlen
Hi I was in a similar position to you. But I asked my sensei and in yoshinkan we say Yoroshiku onegaishimasu (that's the Romani) it means 'please treat me well'
Basically but you know the Japanese that will have different meaning depending on context. Google translate thinks it means thank you but that's arigato gozaimasu
Oh and OSU! (Oos) basically means 'yeah'. Or it's Japan's way of replying to a senior, like in the army you say sir!

Help you do well in aikido, same with every one else!
I'm going for black belt in October.
OSU!
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