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Old 08-07-2013, 10:39 AM   #26
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Ki energy defined

Hey I came up with a working definition of "ki" while drinking my coffee this morning. It's based on the three internal harmonies because I don't know any better. At least it's short! :

ki () is the mind-driven capacity to efficiently convert the physical energy of the human body into the mechanical power best suited to perform a task.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:01 AM   #27
bkedelen
 
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Zero was treated as a something, a real thing. Funny thing is it led to better problem solving.
Yes, pre-scientific thinking really helped society nail problems like how to detect witches.

"We have fought long and hard to escape from medieval superstition. I, for one, do not wish to go back" - James Randi
 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:26 AM   #28
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Re: Ki energy defined

"What I really need is a droid who understands the binary language of moisture vaporators."
"Vaporators? Sir, my first job was programing binary load lifters very similar to your vaporators in most respects."

Sorry... couldn't resist. And since we are on the topic...

"For my ally in the Force [Aikido]. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us and binds us."

"You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force [Aikido] for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

"A Jedi [Aikiidoka] must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind."

"To answer power with power, the Jedi [Aikidoka] way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are."

This is creeping me out.

 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:35 AM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I guess, Graham, that I'm just not interested in exchanging one form of symbolic metaphor for another. The consistency of knowledge down thru the ages is often masked by the fact that symbols representing that knowledge are continually morphing.

Ron
True, but such is life as you use symbols all the time to represent all ideas and understandings so actually there's no escape if one desires to communicate.

What is binary code but a language. Science has found it to be a very useful one. Science has found this language very useful in not only transmission but also practical use and search and discovery.

Of course from the viewpoint of using in order to understand then it depends on if you like addressing things from that standpoint.

Just one way...one and zero....I use to help students understand part of Aikido and very successfully too.

I can use many in existence things too like basic rules of electricity to help students gain a better understanding. I'm sure you use various analogous or symbolic things too.

Correct feeling is good, beneficent intention is good, to me all part of the thing known as Aikido.

I don't need scientific back up or scholarly agreement or references to who else said so to understand and see their pertinence and viability.

It's all good

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:40 AM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Ki energy defined

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Yes, pre-scientific thinking really helped society nail problems like how to detect witches.

"We have fought long and hard to escape from medieval superstition. I, for one, do not wish to go back" - James Randi
Nice concept...pre scientific...mmmmm. You must think science is something new.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #31
graham christian
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
"What I really need is a droid who understands the binary language of moisture vaporators."
"Vaporators? Sir, my first job was programing binary load lifters very similar to your vaporators in most respects."

Sorry... couldn't resist. And since we are on the topic...

"For my ally in the Force [Aikido]. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us and binds us."

"You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force [Aikido] for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

"A Jedi [Aikiidoka] must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind."

"To answer power with power, the Jedi [Aikidoka] way this is not. In this war, a danger there is, of losing who we are."

This is creeping me out.
Mmmmmm...creeped out and returned to the dark side you have.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 12:56 PM   #32
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Re: Ki energy defined

Here is another concept for you: anti-intellectualism.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
 
Old 08-07-2013, 01:06 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Here is another concept for you: anti-intellectualism.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
Well your first concept was funny to me. This one is just as strange for putting intellect in it's place comes from wisdom. Of course if intellect hasn't yet come to recognize the difference then in comparison it itself is to that degree ignorant.

But still, it's all good. Anti ki-ism could be a constant thread running through certain near subjects.

In fact anti aikidoism is rife in Aikido

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 01:32 PM   #34
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Hey I came up with a working definition of "ki" while drinking my coffee this morning. It's based on the three internal harmonies because I don't know any better. At least it's short! :

ki () is the mind-driven capacity to efficiently convert the physical energy of the human body into the mechanical power best suited to perform a task.
Always seems to come back to coordinated mind and body.

Ron

 
Old 08-07-2013, 02:53 PM   #35
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Always seems to come back to coordinated mind and body.

Ron
Pretty much. I don't think many would disagree with that basic concept. I think the on-going debate circles around presenting the attributes of the different training models each person is familiar with.

When I formulated my definition of Ki, I based it on the three harmonies model, "mind leads intent, intent leads Ki, Ki leads power", which is one of the bases of how I like to train. I tried, however, to place the definition closer to the realm of physical reality. Since "spiritual energy" is not a defined type of energy nor can we measure its sate, I used "physical energy" (resulting from our tangible body mass), which can be transformed into either mechanical and/or thermal energy, and finally expressed as power (energy/time), the process being initiated by the mind or as some call it "intent" (which follows a desire).
 
Old 08-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #36
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Re: Ki energy defined

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I read two hypotheses that Corky put forward. First he hypothesizes that the four forces of nature are different manifestations of a single fundamental force that he chooses to label Ki. To my knowledge, scant though it may be, science has yet to explain the unification of the four forces, so I guess you're not talking about that.

He then goes on to assert in a second hypothesis that there is a fifth manifestation of Ki, namely spiritual energy. Among other things, this fifth force is supposedly responsible for bridging the gap between living and non-living matter. Again, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I do not believe science has been able to explain how non-living organic compounds can combine to form living organisms.

Since science has explained neither of these things perhaps you could be more specific in your critique.

Also, one can hypothesize to one's heart's content without having to as you say "...prove the existence and function of this "energy", you also need to disprove existing science." Einstein used mathematical metaphors and thought experiments to develop the Special and General Theories of Relativity but never did a lick of work trying to prove or disprove them experimentally. He also did not have to disprove Newtonian Mechanics since he showed how classical mechanics was a special case of his more general theories.
There are scientific theories for how inert compounds come together to form living things, yes. But more to the point, in order to claim that there is an "energy" that does this, one must first explain how what we call life is more than just a complex system of inert compounds. We know what makes blood pump, we know what makes muscles contract, we're even starting to understand how the brain works, so what need have we for this "energy" to explain anything? And what's more, how does one come to understand molecular biology by training aikido?

BTW, Einstein's gravity (which is a curvature of space caused by mass) did disprove and replace Newton's gravity (which is a force).
Quote:
Please write that sentence down, put it in a sealed bottle and bury it in your back yard. If your still studying Aikido in 25 or 30 years dig it up, reread it and see how you feel about it.

Ron
You've made this argument with me before, and it's hard to read it as anything but a cop-out. If you think I'm wrong, explain why. Simply telling me that I'll understand someday is presumptuous and painfully condescending and says nothing of any substance.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 08-07-2013 at 03:33 PM.

 
Old 08-07-2013, 03:31 PM   #37
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Always seems to come back to coordinated mind and body.

Ron
This much, at least, I agree with.

 
Old 08-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #38
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
BTW, Einstein's gravity (which is a curvature of space caused by mass) did disprove and replace Newton's gravity (which is a force).
General Relativity did nothing of the sort. In fact Newton's gravity equations are derivable from the equations of General Relativity and NASA routinely uses Newton's equations when calculating mission trajectories. In fact, Newtonian mechanics is perfectly applicable to most material object interactions that do not involve very high energies.

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Simply telling me that I'll understand someday is presumptuous and painfully condescending and says nothing of any substance.
Maybe, maybe not. Either way it's still good advice.

Ron

 
Old 08-07-2013, 04:17 PM   #39
Krystal Locke
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Here is another concept for you: anti-intellectualism.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
This.

The right to have an opinion does not make that opinion right.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 04:34 PM   #40
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
When I formulated my definition of Ki, I based it on the three harmonies model, "mind leads intent, intent leads Ki, Ki leads power", which is one of the bases of how I like to train. I tried, however, to place the definition closer to the realm of physical reality. Since "spiritual energy" is not a defined type of energy nor can we measure its sate, I used "physical energy" (resulting from our tangible body mass), which can be transformed into either mechanical and/or thermal energy, and finally expressed as power (energy/time), the process being initiated by the mind or as some call it "intent" (which follows a desire).
That's the kind of informative post that drives the discussion forward. My own working definition of Ki as a manifestation of a coordinated mind and body employs spirit as a quality I possess which can enhance or retard my ability to integrate mind and body. As such, spirit plays a vital role in my training, but not as a form of energy or a mystical connection to some greater truth. Training employs exercises and waza that are designed to facilitate the smooth unification of mind and body in order to manifest Ki. The fact that theses exercises and waza are built around martial techniques makes the whole experience doubly rewarding.

Ron

 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:12 PM   #41
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
General Relativity did nothing of the sort. In fact Newton's gravity equations are derivable from the equations of General Relativity and NASA routinely uses Newton's equations when calculating mission trajectories. In fact, Newtonian mechanics is perfectly applicable to most material object interactions that do not involve very high energies.
Newton's math is still good, yes, but Einstein showed Newton's understanding of what gravity is to be incomplete.

This is all really beside the point, though. Corky is making some pretty bold scientific claims, and scientific claims require (a) falsifiability and (b) evidence. Without these two things, Corky is essentially just saying, "This is what I believe," and that's not how science works. Corky either needs to get out of the atoms and biology business or start making falsifiable claims that are supported by evidence.
Quote:
Maybe, maybe not. Either way it's still good advice.

Ron
I repeat: if I'm wrong, please explain how. Your current stance seems to be that after a long time in aikido, people naturally come around to your correct way of thinking, and that therefore you are not burdened with explaining yourself. That's a pretty quick way to kill a conversation. I'm happy to listen, but you're giving me nothing to listen to.

 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:48 PM   #42
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Newton's math is still good, yes, but Einstein showed Newton's understanding of what gravity is to be incomplete.
These are your words: "BTW, Einstein's gravity (which is a curvature of space caused by mass) did disprove and replace Newton's gravity (which is a force)." (emphasis added)

I repeat, it did neither.

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I repeat: if I'm wrong, please explain how. Your current stance seems to be that after a long time in aikido, people naturally come around to your correct way of thinking, and that therefore you are not burdened with explaining yourself. That's a pretty quick way to kill a conversation. I'm happy to listen, but you're giving me nothing to listen to.
Again, your words that I responded to: "I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido."

Since you have not made a falsifiable statement there's nothing for me to point to as being right or wrong. My current stance, as you so skillfully misinterpret, is that with time and maturity one's views and perceptions are apt to undergo significant alterations. Believe it or not, I don't care, and am certainly under no obligation to explain myself to you.

Please feel free to get the last word in, I'm done with this.

Ron

 
Old 08-08-2013, 08:40 AM   #43
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Re: Ki energy defined

1= DO
0= DO NOT

There is no try.

OMG

 
Old 08-08-2013, 08:55 AM   #44
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Re: Ki energy defined

Seriously,

First, I like the concept of concrete expression of ki. I am more likely to accept a definition of ki if it can be expressed and replicated. The ol' "kokoro" thing does work, even if it is not fancy. I think there is a big difference in application when you go from arm-chair quarterback to being on the field. I respect the people who are putting forth replicable aiki; even more so when they can show it to you in a weekend.

Second, I think when we over-complicate what is going on, it becomes very difficult to express aiki organically. So I find myself bouncing back and forth between relying on "fundamental" aiki, and exploring the wooga-wooga stuff. And, what I once though to be wooga-wooga stuff is now fundamental stuff.

You tell me aikido is polka dots, you have an obligation to show me how its polka dots. You wanna call BS on someone, show up on their door, call BS, and grab their wrist. Their stuff either works or it don't.

Also, as a shameless plug, we are having George Ledyard Sensei in Atlanta Dec. 6-8. I consider George Sensei to be a leader in sharing aiki, explaining it, and empowering students within a seminar to walk away with a better understanding of aiki. He does so much wooga-wooga stuff he needs a grass skirt. He also loves to be called on BS. And unicorns - he loves unicorns.

 
Old 08-08-2013, 12:10 PM   #45
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Re: Ki energy defined

I know where you are coming from Jon. Particularly in light of the fact that phenomena that are not measurable and repeatable do. not. exist..
 
Old 08-08-2013, 12:37 PM   #46
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Re: Ki energy defined

In his 1844 book, Philosophical Fragments, Kierkegaard writes:
Let us call this unknown something: God. It is nothing more than a name we assign to it. The idea of demonstrating that this unknown something (God) exists, could scarcely suggest itself to Reason. For if God does not exist it would of course be impossible to prove it; and if he does exist it would be folly to attempt it. For at the very outset, in beginning my proof, I would have presupposed it, not as doubtful but as certain (a presupposition is never doubtful, for the very reason that it is a presupposition), since otherwise I would not begin, readily understanding that the whole would be impossible if he did not exist. But if when I speak of proving God's existence I mean that I propose to prove that the Unknown, which exists, is God, then I express myself unfortunately. For in that case I do not prove anything, least of all an existence, but merely develop the content of a conception.

Replace god with ki and what have you got?

"Ki" is a container a label a cup that holds our ignorance - empty your cup, indeed.



"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
 
Old 08-08-2013, 02:43 PM   #47
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Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
When I wrote that my view of Ki was incompatible with your explanation it was because I use Ki in an entirely different context. It's much less sweeping than your Ki as fundamental energy and has nothing to do with Ki as the generator of life from lifelessness.
I understand.

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
While my blog has many posts regarding my take on Ki, for the sake of brevity I'll just say that for me Ki is manifest via the coordination of mind and body. Spirit is the facilitator of mind/body coordination. When I have coordinated mind and body I enter a state of correct feeling and Ki is noticeably evident.
I believe you

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Your physics seems on solid ground with respect to the Standard Model. Your speculation regarding the roles of Ki as being the source of the four known forces and the bestow-er of life is like String Theory, Quantum Gravity or M Theory in that before it can be accepted as scientific "fact" it must undergo experimental verification.

You can, of course, choose to simply accept your view on faith, convinced that it is correct because of your own observations over the past 10 years. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's your metaphor and (from what I read in Mark Freeman's blog) you have been able to employ it to take your Aikido to another level. Can any of us ask more of our metaphors?
Like all theory from Newton on up, the best we can hope for is a working model. In our human history each theory has been proven to be incomplete or dead wrong eventually, but in the meantime the working model allows us to predict some effects and create technology to implement them.

This is how I look at the postulate I have presented. I am more than open to revisions or contrary evidence. It is through these things our understanding grows.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Your training paradigm sounds interesting. After watching a few of your videos on YouTube, I can see that while our metaphors and methods are different we have goals for our Aikido that are very much in common.

Ron
I think the truth can be told many ways.

Thanks for your consideration.

Corky
 
Old 08-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #48
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Re: Ki energy defined

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This is all really beside the point, though. Corky is making some pretty bold scientific claims, and scientific claims require (a) falsifiability and (b) evidence. Without these two things, Corky is essentially just saying, "This is what I believe," and that's not how science works. Corky either needs to get out of the atoms and biology business or start making falsifiable claims that are supported by evidence.
You are correct about me making some bold claims, Matthew, but the claims I am making do not contradict any of the current scientific models as far as I can see. All scientific theory starts with observation, then a theory and then a testing of the theory. It should stand up to challenges and predict outcomes. So far in my experience my model has done both.

You bring up some good points about how complex organisms are and how energy is supplied to cells that do involuntary work to keep a being alive who acts voluntarily.

There are rules that apply to the way chemistry interacts with gravity and electromagnetic radiation and those appear to us (become observable) on the gross level. For instance we can speculate how the molecule H2O could act at a million degrees below 0 on a planet the size of Jupiter, but we will never have the true empirical measurements, it will always be speculative.

We are really lucky to be on a planet with such a moderate temperature that water can exist on it in all three forms of matter solid, uncompressable liquid, and compressible gas. We can see that it acts completely differently in regards to gravity (Water tank with water - open the hose at the bottom and all the water qoes away. Fill it with crushed ice and it stays put. As water vapor (without pressure differential), it stays put. You see all of what it does but the fundamental question is always "why."

I propose that the chemical properties of four essential elements that make replicating chains of amino acids just happening to be on the planet in a state ready to form amino acids under the right set of planetary conditions is neither no more or less extraordinary than a quark becoming and disappearing in the creation of a star.

Again, this is a postulate, intended to be a working model. If you would like to challenge it or put it to the test in that regard, it would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Corky
 
Old 08-08-2013, 08:43 PM   #49
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Re: Ki energy defined

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I know where you are coming from Jon. Particularly in light of the fact that phenomena that are not measurable and repeatable do. not. exist..
Love.
Success.
Pride.
Fear.
Courage.
Loyalty.
...

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
 
Old 08-09-2013, 08:09 AM   #50
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Re: Ki energy defined

Yes exactly. Each of those is only between the ears.

"So many times we try to find the right emotion. What emotion is going to help you? This is what helps you (raises his fists). Forward motion, getting your legs back, getting up off the bottom, working the whole time. Those are actions. Not one of those was an emotion. Anger, happiness, sad, fear, scared. Not one of those is going to get a judge to mark your name. (raises his fists) This is what marks your name." - Chael Sonnen
 

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