Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-03-2001, 12:18 PM   #1
"Guest_779"
IP Hash: 003c2fbc
Anonymous User
Ki Symbol

The terms ch'i and ki (as related, for example, to martial arts) are indistinguishable. Although it has a multitude of meanings, ki or ch'i has been described as the breath, spirit or nature of things. In Taoism, ch'i is the life force, the vital or primordial energy which, as cosmic spirit, diffuses all creation and gives it life. Every individual has a reservoir of this energy from birth, located in the physical sense at the navel, the so-called "ocean of breath" where exercises aimed at prolonging life are centred, the ch'i-hai. Normal living depletes this store of energy and leads to sickness and death. Different techniques, for example those of Taoist alchemy, concentrate on preserving, nurturing and replenishing ch'i, whether in the physical, mental or spiritual sense; and lead to health, longevity or immortality at the appropriate level. In the physical sense, exercises concentrating on control of breath may lead to re-establishment of emotional well-being and balance within the neurohormonal system.

In neo-Confucianism the concept was expanded and precised to indicate that which causes the physical manifestation (variable) of the metaphysical (always good). A flawed ki thus indicates a flawed moral nature; purification of ki leads to enlightenment, with consciousness and action in perfect unity.

Ki energy is both personal and impersonal, concrete and universal. Transcending time and space, it is the basic creative energy or force in life. As a psychophysical energy important in the martial arts, ki energy is developed by breathing exercises and implemented by concentration of the will. Ki is twofold - the unity of the individual-universe and the free and spontaneous expression of breath-power. The former, inheriting the ideas of ancient Chinese thinkers, is realized through unifying ki, mind and body in, for example, aikido training. It acts as defence against physical attack and may be used at a distance. The kiai shout focuses all the bodily and spiritual energy into one sound, unifying the proponent's powers and disconcerting the opponent.

Harmony of ki, or ai-ki, is manifest when mind and body are unified, its subtle working is the maternal source that affects changes in breath. As delicate changes in breath power occur spontaneously, proper technique flows freely.

Awareness of delicate changes may show fierce and potent or slow and stolid movements of ki in the void, leading to discernment of the degree of concentration or unification of mind and body. Ki can be taken to mean mind, spirit or heart, and thus to have ki out of order in some way means a diminished state of consciousness. This may be insanity, nervousness, depression; it may be an emotional condition (quick tempered, shy). It is the ki and not the individual that is referred to in these cases.

References

·Koichi, Tohei Book of Ki: co-ordinating mind and body in daily life
·Reed, William Ki: a practical guide for Westerners
·Siu, R G H Ch'i: a neo-Taoist approach to life (1974)
·Yang, Jwing-Ming The Root of Chinese Chi Kung (1988)
 
Old 04-26-2001, 04:18 PM   #2
Horus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 8
Offline
Talking good description

good description of ki. i've looked all over the web looking at info on ki and this seems to be the best description and informational resource i've seen so far!
 
Old 07-31-2013, 09:37 AM   #3
CorkyQ
Dojo: Kakushi Toride Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 94
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Since my aikido training took a hard turn almost 10 years ago, I have been examining the nature of ki and have come to these conclusions.

Ki is fundamental energy. It is the energy that forms atoms out of nothing, and it flows.

Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it. These are to be found among the four forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak (the last two affect matter at the subatomic level).

I propose that there is a fifth way fundamental energy expresses that is so difficult to quantify that it has been put aside as either imaginary or magical or it is ignored altogether. It is called spiritual energy.

For sake of simplicity, I will refer to spiritual energy as ki.

Ki has properties just like the other four, but since electromagnetism and gravity are easily observable in our human scale I will compare ki mostly to them.

Some gross generalizations: Gravity affects mass and is connective. Magnetism is connective also but can be repellent as well. The larger and denser the mass, the greater the gravity; the more the flow of electrons the greater the magnetism. Magnetism easily overcomes gravity in some situations (refrigerator magnet sticks to the door, doesn't drop to the floor; levitation of objects) but is weaker in others (two inches away from the refrigerator and the magnet drops to the floor).

The way Gravity and Electromagnetism become observable through their properties relative to material objects in the former and specific metals in the latter, Ki becomes observable specifically in living matter.

Ki is ordinary. That is, it is in every bit of living matter. It is the natural force that through its connectivity binds inert compounds into reproducing organisms.

All of the energetic expression of the universe starts with the big bang. In the space time continuum the big bang is happening right now as well as 13 billion years ago, but it is the radiant flow of all that energy that shows up as the cosmos.

Ki is expanding from the big bang as well. As the universe spreads itself far and wide, ki churns through it all, evolving living matter to fit the whole, subject to all the forces of nature but given life by the constant flow of this energy from its source.

We can observe this energy to be connective. As previously mentioned it binds inert compounds together to form organisms. It connects organisms together to make more organisms. It is connective between predator and prey. As this energy moves through space it gathers the inert compounds in the form of bodies that born of connection, grow, mature, age and become inert compounds again.

As our ancestors developed a neo cortex they became aware of the energy they could feel inside them making them different from the ground around them. Intuitively they understood that this energy was giving them life and without it they would go back into the ground, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "god."

The life-giving and connective properties of ki are tied together but also act independently. The life-giving aspects of ki happen automatically within living systems. The connective properties, outside of the ones chemical in nature, are expressed through intention.

Through intention we regulate the flow of ki through our bodies so that we can take action. Some actions are involuntary, but all are regulated through intention. For example, we swallow automatically, but the intention of the involuntary act is to push food and liquids through the esophagus without entering the trachea. In order to get up from a chair to get something to swallow requires that intention.

Through the mechanism of intention, we release flow through our body parts to take action. But the connective properties of this energy are also regulated through intention.

The connective properties of ki flow through us to other animate and inanimate objects. Our ancestors with their newly developed neo cortex became aware of this flow of energy between them, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "love."

The reason love feels so good is because when you love you are opening channels of this energy flow to do what it does best -- connect -- and as it is literally life-giving, it feels the best when the flow is not constricted. When we love, our systems become open conduits for this connective energy. There is a reason why perhaps the most intense physical pleasure our bodies are capable of comes from the deepest connection two people can have, and that's not a connection that is solely physical.

But because we have intention as a regulating device, we can withhold our connection from anyone or anything we choose. Unconditional love is said to be the highest form, and with it comes optimum ki flow and free expression of ki's connectivity. But as we start to withhold our love, usually out of a perception of threat, we put up barriers to that flow, our intentional "floodgates".

Putting up barriers to flow to thwart the connective properties of ki to protect the self do not stop those connective properties from needing to do what they do, and as the need to connect grows within a person the ki starts to come out constricted by fear. Similar to fluid dynamics, the ki that comes out in a constricted flow, comes out like water through a fire hose and with it a destructive connection.

In the book Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba under the direction of Osensei, in the section under "Basic Knowledge" after posture, distance from one's partner, and the hand blade, comes ki no nagare, which is translated "stream of spirit." Your "stream" and your attacker's "stream" merge (harmonize). In the book it is put this way: It is the work of spirit power to involve the opponent's movement into your movement, responding naturally and unconsciously to the changes of circumstances.

Two pages later in the book, after entering and spherical movement, chikara no dashikata (extension of power). The description distinguishes between force power and spiritual power and describes releasing this spiritual power through the arms hands and fingertips.

The connective and live-giving properties of ki are the essential ingredient in aikido. Our practice is to transcend ancient lower brain defense mechanisms to release the unrestricted flow of ki of which we are capable. When we do this it becomes obvious why Osensei continually called aikido a budo of love.

Last edited by CorkyQ : 07-31-2013 at 09:42 AM.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 02:07 PM   #4
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Ki Defined? Slightly explained maybe. I wish it was more defined for I am yet to find many worthwhile explanations let alone defined.

In fact I would say that when it is understood to a good level only then can you see how ai and Ki and do work as aikido. Only then can you see ueshiba's ai ki has nothing to do with the aiki of daito ryu.

To understand Ki is quite like zen attitude for you must practice letting go of all what you think or have been told about it I would say about 95% of the time.

Been teaching it many many years and thus not surprised or against all those thoughts and chats and 'official' references about it but am merely aware of the general lack of reality on it.

Mmmm, glad you brought this up as a thread. Be interesting to see if some new, good explanations come from it.

Peace.G.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 03:16 PM   #5
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

I think we're seeing a bit of overlap (or disconnect, YMMV) of how the philosophy, belief systems, science and observable actions all blend together as an approach. Not a slam, just not really my bag for discussion or interest. I'm more just the hobbyist talking shop.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 04:16 PM   #6
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Since my aikido training took a hard turn almost 10 years ago, I have been examining the nature of ki and have come to these conclusions.

Ki is fundamental energy. It is the energy that forms atoms out of nothing, and it flows.

Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it. These are to be found among the four forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak (the last two affect matter at the subatomic level).

I propose that there is a fifth way fundamental energy expresses that is so difficult to quantify that it has been put aside as either imaginary or magical or it is ignored altogether. It is called spiritual energy.

For sake of simplicity, I will refer to spiritual energy as ki.

Ki has properties just like the other four, but since electromagnetism and gravity are easily observable in our human scale I will compare ki mostly to them.

Some gross generalizations: Gravity affects mass and is connective. Magnetism is connective also but can be repellent as well. The larger and denser the mass, the greater the gravity; the more the flow of electrons the greater the magnetism. Magnetism easily overcomes gravity in some situations (refrigerator magnet sticks to the door, doesn't drop to the floor; levitation of objects) but is weaker in others (two inches away from the refrigerator and the magnet drops to the floor).

The way Gravity and Electromagnetism become observable through their properties relative to material objects in the former and specific metals in the latter, Ki becomes observable specifically in living matter.

Ki is ordinary. That is, it is in every bit of living matter. It is the natural force that through its connectivity binds inert compounds into reproducing organisms.

All of the energetic expression of the universe starts with the big bang. In the space time continuum the big bang is happening right now as well as 13 billion years ago, but it is the radiant flow of all that energy that shows up as the cosmos.

Ki is expanding from the big bang as well. As the universe spreads itself far and wide, ki churns through it all, evolving living matter to fit the whole, subject to all the forces of nature but given life by the constant flow of this energy from its source.

We can observe this energy to be connective. As previously mentioned it binds inert compounds together to form organisms. It connects organisms together to make more organisms. It is connective between predator and prey. As this energy moves through space it gathers the inert compounds in the form of bodies that born of connection, grow, mature, age and become inert compounds again.

As our ancestors developed a neo cortex they became aware of the energy they could feel inside them making them different from the ground around them. Intuitively they understood that this energy was giving them life and without it they would go back into the ground, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "god."

The life-giving and connective properties of ki are tied together but also act independently. The life-giving aspects of ki happen automatically within living systems. The connective properties, outside of the ones chemical in nature, are expressed through intention.

Through intention we regulate the flow of ki through our bodies so that we can take action. Some actions are involuntary, but all are regulated through intention. For example, we swallow automatically, but the intention of the involuntary act is to push food and liquids through the esophagus without entering the trachea. In order to get up from a chair to get something to swallow requires that intention.

Through the mechanism of intention, we release flow through our body parts to take action. But the connective properties of this energy are also regulated through intention.

The connective properties of ki flow through us to other animate and inanimate objects. Our ancestors with their newly developed neo cortex became aware of this flow of energy between them, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "love."

The reason love feels so good is because when you love you are opening channels of this energy flow to do what it does best -- connect -- and as it is literally life-giving, it feels the best when the flow is not constricted. When we love, our systems become open conduits for this connective energy. There is a reason why perhaps the most intense physical pleasure our bodies are capable of comes from the deepest connection two people can have, and that's not a connection that is solely physical.

But because we have intention as a regulating device, we can withhold our connection from anyone or anything we choose. Unconditional love is said to be the highest form, and with it comes optimum ki flow and free expression of ki's connectivity. But as we start to withhold our love, usually out of a perception of threat, we put up barriers to that flow, our intentional "floodgates".

Putting up barriers to flow to thwart the connective properties of ki to protect the self do not stop those connective properties from needing to do what they do, and as the need to connect grows within a person the ki starts to come out constricted by fear. Similar to fluid dynamics, the ki that comes out in a constricted flow, comes out like water through a fire hose and with it a destructive connection.

In the book Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba under the direction of Osensei, in the section under "Basic Knowledge" after posture, distance from one's partner, and the hand blade, comes ki no nagare, which is translated "stream of spirit." Your "stream" and your attacker's "stream" merge (harmonize). In the book it is put this way: It is the work of spirit power to involve the opponent's movement into your movement, responding naturally and unconsciously to the changes of circumstances.

Two pages later in the book, after entering and spherical movement, chikara no dashikata (extension of power). The description distinguishes between force power and spiritual power and describes releasing this spiritual power through the arms hands and fingertips.

The connective and live-giving properties of ki are the essential ingredient in aikido. Our practice is to transcend ancient lower brain defense mechanisms to release the unrestricted flow of ki of which we are capable. When we do this it becomes obvious why Osensei continually called aikido a budo of love.
Hi Corky.
I agree Ki is the fundamental energy behind original manifestation, thus is it devine. It forms atoms etc. from nothing yes.

The simplest way to even look at nothing or comprehend nothing is by breaking up the word..No...Thing.

This is indeed why most have a hard time relating to it because even in their minds they relate to 'thiings' and Ki is No Thing.

Then we come to 'being aware of it' or feeling it. What else is this but perceiving. However it's not physical perception or even mental and so this is why spiritual is so important to understanding.

Ki is indeed the life giving energy in animate and inanimate forms too and so is universal.

Intention and connection are good to use on the way to understanding but personally I find they are just tools to a better understanding.

For example I would say intention is one factor but then even that one factor will change once inspected as to what intention? Then also connection although a good principle to use will eventually change also to a more all embrasive thing.

So Ki does 'connect' but for me that's not enough for actually it harmonizes. It not only harmonizes with but actually brings about harmony. Ai....Ki. Thus it reaches and organizes according to universal divinity. As does life itself for all life forms are of that word organize and thus called organisms.

The way of harmony.

Peace.G.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 04:32 PM   #7
Brett Charvat
Location: Pullman, WA
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 64
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Different techniques, for example those of Taoist alchemy, concentrate on preserving, nurturing and replenishing ch'i, whether in the physical, mental or spiritual sense; and lead to health, longevity or immortality at the appropriate level.
-- Really? Interesting how few immortals are walking among us.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
The kiai shout focuses all the bodily and spiritual energy into one sound, unifying the proponent's powers and disconcerting the opponent.
-- What if my opponent is deaf?
 
Old 08-01-2013, 05:59 AM   #8
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,740
United_States
Online
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
-- Really? Interesting how few immortals are walking among us.
"There can be only one!"

Quote:
-- What if my opponent is deaf?
Show him/her/it the one hand clapping technique.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 08-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #9
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Ki is an intergalactic energy panacea and also about breathing and nature and stuff. Furthermore it is solo training like yoga only done the right way. It was made up by the Chinese but the Peking Opera cleverly disguised its provenance by hiding it inside rubber weapons, calisthenics, and street magic. Lastly it is what Jesus knew about and definitely completes religions.

Last edited by bkedelen : 08-01-2013 at 10:13 AM.
 
Old 08-01-2013, 01:24 PM   #10
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 181
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Ki is an intergalactic energy panacea and also about breathing and nature and stuff. Furthermore it is solo training like yoga only done the right way. It was made up by the Chinese but the Peking Opera cleverly disguised its provenance by hiding it inside rubber weapons, calisthenics, and street magic. Lastly it is what Jesus knew about and definitely completes religions.
Pretty good summary of several thousand aikiweb posts on the subject of "ki".
 
Old 08-01-2013, 07:06 PM   #11
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

The other single fundamental principle regarding Ki and in fact necessary for it's use is non resistance. Without non resistance there is no Ki or awareness of Ki.

The fallacy of thinking about Ki from the viewpoint of 'power' and the even more absurd notion of 'explosive power' is merely egotistical 'mind' in action. Yet another false path attracting only fearful or misinformed folk.

Ki is non resistance, Ki is all pervasive, Ki is harmonizing, Ki creates alignment and thus not control, Ki is of the selfless self and thus universal and already connected. Thus it is a discipline to allow rather than to intend and connect ultimately.

Until folk let go of the false albeit alluring definitions and explanations of Ki then it will remain a mystery and be falsely propagated only by those with 'new tricks' based on 'old quotes' and commonly given false ideas.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-01-2013, 08:32 PM   #12
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 634
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Ki is fundamental energy.
Since your whole analysis to follow is based on this single statement, I'll treat it as an axiom; that is I'll accept that "Ki is fundamental energy" as being self evident.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
It is the energy that forms atoms out of nothing, and it flows.
Atoms are formed from the association of electrons, protons and neutrons. Electrons are elementary particles, but protons and neutrons are composite particles formed out of combinations of differently "flavored" quarks.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it. These are to be found among the four forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak (the last two affect matter at the subatomic level).
This is an interesting conjecture. The implication of this is that Ki represents the grand unification of the known 4 forces as it (Ki) existed at the moment of the Big Bang. What you are implying is that the symmetry breaking that gave rise to gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces is really just different aspects of Ki that are subject to observation whereas Ki itself seems to be beyond our efforts to directly observe measure. This is actually in line with current physics. The unification of the 4 forces is quite beyond earthly experimentation and therefore not observable.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
I propose that there is a fifth way fundamental energy expresses that is so difficult to quantify that it has been put aside as either imaginary or magical or it is ignored altogether. It is called spiritual energy.
A proposition that implies another symmetry break.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
For sake of simplicity, I will refer to spiritual energy as ki.
Ok, far from making things simpler your statement here serves to muddy the waters of understanding. You are referring to a property subset of the thing (Ki) as the thing itself. Earlier you stated that "Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it." And your axiom states that "Ki is fundamental energy." So while spiritual energy is a manifestation of certain properties of fundamental energy (Ki) it isn't the thing itself any more than gravity, electromagnetism, the strong or weak forces are Ki. Maybe you could call it spirit and leave it at that.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Ki becomes observable specifically in living matter.
Ok.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Ki is ordinary. That is, it is in every bit of living matter. It is the natural force that through its connectivity binds inert compounds into reproducing organisms.
This is a very strong conjecture that, unless you insist that it be accepted on faith, requires experimental verification. I mean you're talking the secret of life here Dr. Frankenstein.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
As the universe spreads itself far and wide, ki churns through it all, evolving living matter to fit the whole...
Are you referring to Ki the fundamental energy or ki the spiritual energy?

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
...subject to all the forces of nature but given life by the constant flow of this energy from its source.
And its source would be?

You have some interesting stuff here Corky. While my own views regarding Ki are quite incompatible with what you have laid out here, I really appreciate that you have obviously given this subject a lot of deep thought. I'm sure that your meditations have had a profound beneficial effect on your Aikido, which has in turn, helped your views on Ki evolve. A very nice positive feedback loop.

Ron

 
Old 08-05-2013, 05:06 PM   #13
CorkyQ
Dojo: Kakushi Toride Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 94
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Since your whole analysis to follow is based on this single statement, I'll treat it as an axiom; that is I'll accept that "Ki is fundamental energy" as being self evident.

Atoms are formed from the association of electrons, protons and neutrons. Electrons are elementary particles, but protons and neutrons are composite particles formed out of combinations of differently "flavored" quarks.

This is an interesting conjecture. The implication of this is that Ki represents the grand unification of the known 4 forces as it (Ki) existed at the moment of the Big Bang. What you are implying is that the symmetry breaking that gave rise to gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces is really just different aspects of Ki that are subject to observation whereas Ki itself seems to be beyond our efforts to directly observe measure. This is actually in line with current physics. The unification of the 4 forces is quite beyond earthly experimentation and therefore not observable.

A proposition that implies another symmetry break.

Ok, far from making things simpler your statement here serves to muddy the waters of understanding. You are referring to a property subset of the thing (Ki) as the thing itself. Earlier you stated that "Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it." And your axiom states that "Ki is fundamental energy." So while spiritual energy is a manifestation of certain properties of fundamental energy (Ki) it isn't the thing itself any more than gravity, electromagnetism, the strong or weak forces are Ki. Maybe you could call it spirit and leave it at that.

Ok.

This is a very strong conjecture that, unless you insist that it be accepted on faith, requires experimental verification. I mean you're talking the secret of life here Dr. Frankenstein.

Are you referring to Ki the fundamental energy or ki the spiritual energy?

And its source would be?

You have some interesting stuff here Corky. While my own views regarding Ki are quite incompatible with what you have laid out here, I really appreciate that you have obviously given this subject a lot of deep thought. I'm sure that your meditations have had a profound beneficial effect on your Aikido, which has in turn, helped your views on Ki evolve. A very nice positive feedback loop.

Ron
Ron, thanks for your consideration of my postulate. Through our reflections may we both gain in our understanding of aikido's mysteries.

I used the word ki in two contexts - first as fundamental energy, the source of all observable forces of nature, then as the particular observable force, a fifth force of nature, that creates life out of non-living matter. I made this distinction because most people referring to "ki" are speaking of the latter. In this context the word ki would be synonymous with spiritual energy or spiritual force.

Quarks are observable, to those with the tools to measure their effects, as subject to all forces of nature. All the forces of nature have connective properties -- quarks combine to produce hadrons and are never found isolated. So even at the most basic level of physical reality, the quark model recognizes the fundamental principle of connection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark. It is when they exhibit the connective property, again common to all, that hadrons combine to become chemical elements.

An atomic nucleus blown up to the size of an baseball sitting on the pitcher's mound of a major league baseball stadium would have its closest electron the size of a pin head orbiting out past the furthest bleacher seat. Matter is mostly empty space. Think of physical reality as 3d projections of pure energy forming a holographic, tactile image that appears solid and "real" to our gross senses and yet is mostly immaterial.

The paradox in quantum physics is that particles also appear as a wave. Imagine fundamental energy radiating from its source, the central core of the big bang; broadcasting, if you will. The interference pattern created by this radiant energy throughout time space continually creates all of what we call physical reality across the entire cosmos through the mechanism of quantum physics.

Within that physicality the known forces of nature become observable by their properties. We start to see differentiations in the way compounds act in accordance with gravity, for example. Fluid mechanics as a subset of gravitational forces demonstrates how the constricted flow of liquid through a fire hose seems to defy gravity and shoots water up many stories to subdue the flames of a burning building. A fire hose hooked up to a 125' water tower will have no problem spraying water that high with gravity as its only propellant, but fill the water tank with sand and the sand won't make it out of the hose.

At the level subatomic particles become atoms, differentiation of gravitational and electromagnetic forces are already observable because those subatomic particles form atoms of cobalt, iron and nickel.

This is the level at which ki (spiritual force) differentiates also, because at the atomic level various elements come together to form molecules of amino acids.

Spiritual energy has not been recognized by the scientific community at large because it has heretofore been unquantifiable. Weight and mass and magnetic fields can be measured, but no one has come up with a way to measure a flow of love between individuals or a quantitative difference between a living being and a corpse.

As for the effects of the properties of ki (spirit force), they are easily observable if not measurable. From a purely biological perspective, that organisms exist and reproduce is the simplest observable fact. On earth the ingredients of our planetary mass acted upon by ki formed chains of the elements carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, but on other planets perhaps the chemical building blocks of life may be specific other elements depending on the various factors of that respective planet.

Ki (spiritual force) is as ordinary and as profound as gravity and the electromagnetic spectrum, but as a force of nature it is found acting, like gravity and electromagnetic radiation, in harmony with all other observable manifestations of fundamental energy, in the creation of living beings in evolving, expanding fractal patterns.

Relevant to aikido, ki's connective properties manifest in the phenomenon known as love. Love is the name we give the feeling of ki expressing through our being that connects to someone or something else. Though no one can measure it, it is difficult to deny its existence, so it is considered esoteric. But can we really explain why and how the force gravity is in existence? No, we can only describe its existence through the effects of its properties.

Every person knows the feeling of connecting with others as joyous and life-giving. We intuitively see growth and improvement as favorable things, sickness and decay, though part of the experience of living matter, as unfavorable and a depletion of the life force (ki, spiritual force). Immeasurable but hard to deny, love and cooperation feels better to all than hatred and conflict. A simple examination reveals a simple truth: Five people who can agree on a restaurant for lunch are going to have a better time than each of the five trying to draw the rest to a restaurant of the ethnic variety of food that each prefers. Love allows us to harmonize more easily than disdain does.

What I believe to be Morihei Ueshiba's greatest discovery, through an epiphany, was that the connective properties of ki manifest physically in conflict situations between human beings.

Many memoirs of Osensei report that although the students could replicate the movements of Osensei, no one's aikido "felt" like his. He has been quoted as admonishing students to express aiki rather than do aikido techniques. This distinction, rather than being a head-scratcher and shoulder shrugger, should be observable and replicable.

The way we work in my dojo, ukes extend authentic attack energy and are free to attack any way they care to at any time, as no techniques are taught or demonstrated. Instead of an uke who is there to facilitate nage's movement through a complex formation of elemental aikido movements usually called "a technique," ukes in my dojo are there to provide an unrelenting, authentic flow of attack energy. When this is done at a particular level of intensity, there is no way for nage to wiggle out, escape or force themselves and uke through a technique. Our practice is to overcome the natural resistance or escape responses embedded in our lower central nervous system and transcend them to function at a higher level of consciousness which allows us to love our partner despite the attack.

Rather than what my teacher Don O'Bell sensei called "Pollyanna love," I am referring to the embodiment of a state of being in which this energy flows in a limitless, unobstructed way toward our partner.

This optimum flow of ki as it passes through our systems may be distinguishable at some level through variations in intention in compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, appreciation, etcetera, but the common quality in all those forms of love are that they are beneficent in nature. One's ki will flow in greatest abundance to those one wants to benefit. In other words, if you are injured in an accident, my ki will flow more toward you if I want to help you than it will if I don't want to be involved. This seems obvious, but if we really become conscious of our feelings when we withhold love from something we find it is relatively unpleasant. It's especially noticeable when compared to when we love someone.

In practice in our non-technique training, we start to see that we cannot under any circumstances fake the embodiment of some form of beneficent intention and see aiki materialize in the form of uke going to the mat. But by shifting our consciousness truly to love in one or more of its myriad forms, aikido happens immediately and in paths usually much simpler than the techniques most aikidoka practice.

Through practicing this way we have seen the literal truth of some of Osensei's "esoteric" teachings. Feeling the way it feels when someone we have grabbed or are striking responds with an intention that we benefit from our interaction is a tactile, empirical experience hard to deny.

I have been studying the nature of attack energy as it arises from intention for almost ten years, and I feel confident in saying that anyone I offer this energy to will confirm that it is both authentic and relentless, even at a reduced intensity. When I grab an unranked aikido student less than a year in training with the same energy and intention I have given to Saotome Sensei, Heiny Sensei, and Ikeda Sensei when invited to be uke for them, and this beginning student shifts from being absolutely at my mercy to moving with me as I hit the mat all from modifying his intention from defense to beneficence, it is a profound affirmation of Osensei's claim that the power of aikido comes from love.
 
Old 08-05-2013, 09:48 PM   #14
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 634
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
I used the word ki in two contexts - first as fundamental energy, the source of all observable forces of nature, then as the particular observable force, a fifth force of nature, that creates life out of non-living matter. I made this distinction because most people referring to "ki" are speaking of the latter. In this context the word ki would be synonymous with spiritual energy or spiritual force.
When I wrote that my view of Ki was incompatible with your explanation it was because I use Ki in an entirely different context. It's much less sweeping than your Ki as fundamental energy and has nothing to do with Ki as the generator of life from lifelessness.

While my blog has many posts regarding my take on Ki, for the sake of brevity I'll just say that for me Ki is manifest via the coordination of mind and body. Spirit is the facilitator of mind/body coordination. When I have coordinated mind and body I enter a state of correct feeling and Ki is noticeably evident.

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Quarks are observable, to those with the tools to measure their effects, as subject to all forces of nature. All the forces of nature have connective properties -- quarks combine to produce hadrons and are never found isolated. So even at the most basic level of physical reality, the quark model recognizes the fundamental principle of connection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark. It is when they exhibit the connective property, again common to all, that hadrons combine to become chemical elements.

An atomic nucleus blown up to the size of an baseball sitting on the pitcher's mound of a major league baseball stadium would have its closest electron the size of a pin head orbiting out past the furthest bleacher seat. Matter is mostly empty space. Think of physical reality as 3d projections of pure energy forming a holographic, tactile image that appears solid and "real" to our gross senses and yet is mostly immaterial.

The paradox in quantum physics is that particles also appear as a wave. Imagine fundamental energy radiating from its source, the central core of the big bang; broadcasting, if you will. The interference pattern created by this radiant energy throughout time space continually creates all of what we call physical reality across the entire cosmos through the mechanism of quantum physics.

Within that physicality the known forces of nature become observable by their properties. We start to see differentiations in the way compounds act in accordance with gravity, for example. Fluid mechanics as a subset of gravitational forces demonstrates how the constricted flow of liquid through a fire hose seems to defy gravity and shoots water up many stories to subdue the flames of a burning building. A fire hose hooked up to a 125' water tower will have no problem spraying water that high with gravity as its only propellant, but fill the water tank with sand and the sand won't make it out of the hose.

At the level subatomic particles become atoms, differentiation of gravitational and electromagnetic forces are already observable because those subatomic particles form atoms of cobalt, iron and nickel.

This is the level at which ki (spiritual force) differentiates also, because at the atomic level various elements come together to form molecules of amino acids.

Spiritual energy has not been recognized by the scientific community at large because it has heretofore been unquantifiable. Weight and mass and magnetic fields can be measured, but no one has come up with a way to measure a flow of love between individuals or a quantitative difference between a living being and a corpse.

As for the effects of the properties of ki (spirit force), they are easily observable if not measurable. From a purely biological perspective, that organisms exist and reproduce is the simplest observable fact. On earth the ingredients of our planetary mass acted upon by ki formed chains of the elements carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, but on other planets perhaps the chemical building blocks of life may be specific other elements depending on the various factors of that respective planet.

Ki (spiritual force) is as ordinary and as profound as gravity and the electromagnetic spectrum, but as a force of nature it is found acting, like gravity and electromagnetic radiation, in harmony with all other observable manifestations of fundamental energy, in the creation of living beings in evolving, expanding fractal patterns.
Your physics seems on solid ground with respect to the Standard Model. Your speculation regarding the roles of Ki as being the source of the four known forces and the bestow-er of life is like String Theory, Quantum Gravity or M Theory in that before it can be accepted as scientific "fact" it must undergo experimental verification.

You can, of course, choose to simply accept your view on faith, convinced that it is correct because of your own observations over the past 10 years. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's your metaphor and (from what I read in Mark Freeman's blog) you have been able to employ it to take your Aikido to another level. Can any of us ask more of our metaphors?

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
What I believe to be Morihei Ueshiba's greatest discovery, through an epiphany, was that the connective properties of ki manifest physically in conflict situations between human beings.
I agree with that sentiment.

Your training paradigm sounds interesting. After watching a few of your videos on YouTube, I can see that while our metaphors and methods are different we have goals for our Aikido that are very much in common.

Ron

 
Old 08-06-2013, 11:08 AM   #15
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

To Ron and Corky and Mary and Krystal.

Firstly Ron and Corky, I see you like looking scientifically at things and relating them to your Aikido.

I wrote a story about Ki which appeared on the open discussions forum and thus mentioned one and zero. This is where Krystal and Mary joined in.

So as a little scientific something that 'logically' addresses a connection between the fundamentals of life and brings together eastern and western 'thought' on the matter and indeed led to the theories behind elctronics, computers etc. I think you may like this little video.

If nothing else may it give you food for thought

http://youtu.be/M5YhbehrqOQ

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-06-2013, 06:39 PM   #16
OwlMatt
 
OwlMatt's Avatar
Dojo: Milwaukee Aikikai
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 401
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Since my aikido training took a hard turn almost 10 years ago, I have been examining the nature of ki and have come to these conclusions.

Ki is fundamental energy. It is the energy that forms atoms out of nothing, and it flows.

Fundamental energy has different properties depending how it manifests in the material world as we know it. These are to be found among the four forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetic, strong, and weak (the last two affect matter at the subatomic level).

I propose that there is a fifth way fundamental energy expresses that is so difficult to quantify that it has been put aside as either imaginary or magical or it is ignored altogether. It is called spiritual energy.

For sake of simplicity, I will refer to spiritual energy as ki.

Ki has properties just like the other four, but since electromagnetism and gravity are easily observable in our human scale I will compare ki mostly to them.

Some gross generalizations: Gravity affects mass and is connective. Magnetism is connective also but can be repellent as well. The larger and denser the mass, the greater the gravity; the more the flow of electrons the greater the magnetism. Magnetism easily overcomes gravity in some situations (refrigerator magnet sticks to the door, doesn't drop to the floor; levitation of objects) but is weaker in others (two inches away from the refrigerator and the magnet drops to the floor).

The way Gravity and Electromagnetism become observable through their properties relative to material objects in the former and specific metals in the latter, Ki becomes observable specifically in living matter.

Ki is ordinary. That is, it is in every bit of living matter. It is the natural force that through its connectivity binds inert compounds into reproducing organisms.

All of the energetic expression of the universe starts with the big bang. In the space time continuum the big bang is happening right now as well as 13 billion years ago, but it is the radiant flow of all that energy that shows up as the cosmos.

Ki is expanding from the big bang as well. As the universe spreads itself far and wide, ki churns through it all, evolving living matter to fit the whole, subject to all the forces of nature but given life by the constant flow of this energy from its source.

We can observe this energy to be connective. As previously mentioned it binds inert compounds together to form organisms. It connects organisms together to make more organisms. It is connective between predator and prey. As this energy moves through space it gathers the inert compounds in the form of bodies that born of connection, grow, mature, age and become inert compounds again.

As our ancestors developed a neo cortex they became aware of the energy they could feel inside them making them different from the ground around them. Intuitively they understood that this energy was giving them life and without it they would go back into the ground, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "god."

The life-giving and connective properties of ki are tied together but also act independently. The life-giving aspects of ki happen automatically within living systems. The connective properties, outside of the ones chemical in nature, are expressed through intention.

Through intention we regulate the flow of ki through our bodies so that we can take action. Some actions are involuntary, but all are regulated through intention. For example, we swallow automatically, but the intention of the involuntary act is to push food and liquids through the esophagus without entering the trachea. In order to get up from a chair to get something to swallow requires that intention.

Through the mechanism of intention, we release flow through our body parts to take action. But the connective properties of this energy are also regulated through intention.

The connective properties of ki flow through us to other animate and inanimate objects. Our ancestors with their newly developed neo cortex became aware of this flow of energy between them, and though they could not explain it and could scarcely describe it, they called it, for lack of another word, "love."

The reason love feels so good is because when you love you are opening channels of this energy flow to do what it does best -- connect -- and as it is literally life-giving, it feels the best when the flow is not constricted. When we love, our systems become open conduits for this connective energy. There is a reason why perhaps the most intense physical pleasure our bodies are capable of comes from the deepest connection two people can have, and that's not a connection that is solely physical.

But because we have intention as a regulating device, we can withhold our connection from anyone or anything we choose. Unconditional love is said to be the highest form, and with it comes optimum ki flow and free expression of ki's connectivity. But as we start to withhold our love, usually out of a perception of threat, we put up barriers to that flow, our intentional "floodgates".

Putting up barriers to flow to thwart the connective properties of ki to protect the self do not stop those connective properties from needing to do what they do, and as the need to connect grows within a person the ki starts to come out constricted by fear. Similar to fluid dynamics, the ki that comes out in a constricted flow, comes out like water through a fire hose and with it a destructive connection.

In the book Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba under the direction of Osensei, in the section under "Basic Knowledge" after posture, distance from one's partner, and the hand blade, comes ki no nagare, which is translated "stream of spirit." Your "stream" and your attacker's "stream" merge (harmonize). In the book it is put this way: It is the work of spirit power to involve the opponent's movement into your movement, responding naturally and unconsciously to the changes of circumstances.

Two pages later in the book, after entering and spherical movement, chikara no dashikata (extension of power). The description distinguishes between force power and spiritual power and describes releasing this spiritual power through the arms hands and fingertips.

The connective and live-giving properties of ki are the essential ingredient in aikido. Our practice is to transcend ancient lower brain defense mechanisms to release the unrestricted flow of ki of which we are capable. When we do this it becomes obvious why Osensei continually called aikido a budo of love.
When you start talking about creating atoms and making organisms out of inert compounds, you venture out of the realm of spirituality and into the realm of science. And when that happens, you take on the burden of making falsifiable claims supported by specific evidence. I see none of that here.

What's more, you presume to explain with this "energy" things that science has already explained. That means that you not only need to prove the existence and function of this "energy", you also need to disprove existing science.

I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido. Aikido is not for explaining the origin of life and matter -- we have science for that.

 
Old 08-06-2013, 10:18 PM   #17
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 634
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
What's more, you presume to explain with this "energy" things that science has already explained. That means that you not only need to prove the existence and function of this "energy", you also need to disprove existing science.
I read two hypotheses that Corky put forward. First he hypothesizes that the four forces of nature are different manifestations of a single fundamental force that he chooses to label Ki. To my knowledge, scant though it may be, science has yet to explain the unification of the four forces, so I guess you're not talking about that.

He then goes on to assert in a second hypothesis that there is a fifth manifestation of Ki, namely spiritual energy. Among other things, this fifth force is supposedly responsible for bridging the gap between living and non-living matter. Again, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I do not believe science has been able to explain how non-living organic compounds can combine to form living organisms.

Since science has explained neither of these things perhaps you could be more specific in your critique.

Also, one can hypothesize to one's heart's content without having to as you say "...prove the existence and function of this "energy", you also need to disprove existing science." Einstein used mathematical metaphors and thought experiments to develop the Special and General Theories of Relativity but never did a lick of work trying to prove or disprove them experimentally. He also did not have to disprove Newtonian Mechanics since he showed how classical mechanics was a special case of his more general theories.

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido.
Please write that sentence down, put it in a sealed bottle and bury it in your back yard. If your still studying Aikido in 25 or 30 years dig it up, reread it and see how you feel about it.

Ron

 
Old 08-06-2013, 10:31 PM   #18
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 385
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

He lost me when he said that "binary systems" and DNA were considerably younger than Ba Gua and the I Ching. DNA's been around for much much much longer than any book, martial style, or even the oldest common ancestor between humans and chimps . Numbering systems have been around longer than Ba Gua and the I Ching, but not as long as DNA.

The I Ching is a divinatory manual. For me, that puts it firmly in the same camp as tarot, ouija boards, throwing bones, cutting open a goat to read its entrails, flipping a coin or stepping on a crack. Superstition. Not terribly interested.

Zero is not a negative number. That fact weakens the guy's claims, in my opinion. Further weakening came when he dropped the zero and did a frame switch when he was talking about the 64 possible combinations of trigrams, which is really just an odd composite of a two byte, 3 bit/byte, binary valued system. That sort of frame switch drives the math geeks nuts. Dont talk about zero as a foundation for a supposedly spiritual argument, then leave it behind when you get to explaining reality.

Different cultures use wildly different numerical bases for their numbers. The Mayans used base 20. Babylonians used base 60 (that must have been either a composite base or a total pain in the ass). The Chinese used a composite unary, decimal, and positional system about the time the I Ching was written. Numerical bases are abstract, and therefore rather timeless. The use of specific numerical bases is a cultural artifact. Different cultures needed different numerical systems. Humans tend to prefer the decimal base because we have ten fingers. If we had 8 fingers, we'd tend to octal and that video may have had more of a leg to stand on.

The DNA thing is a profound stretch.

Did he really try to tie in The Matrix?

Maybe his video on finding one's soulmate is better.

We have very different worldviews. I assume that we both prefer to believe true things rather than false things. I am curious about your epistemology, why you believe the things you believe, and by what criteria you judge information for truthfulness. I am an engineer and a scientist. My epistemology is profoundly evidentiary, and in order to make sure my judgments are grounded in reality, I prefer methodological and humanistic naturalism and physicalism. What warrants your knowledge?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
To Ron and Corky and Mary and Krystal.

Firstly Ron and Corky, I see you like looking scientifically at things and relating them to your Aikido.

I wrote a story about Ki which appeared on the open discussions forum and thus mentioned one and zero. This is where Krystal and Mary joined in.

So as a little scientific something that 'logically' addresses a connection between the fundamentals of life and brings together eastern and western 'thought' on the matter and indeed led to the theories behind elctronics, computers etc. I think you may like this little video.

If nothing else may it give you food for thought

http://youtu.be/M5YhbehrqOQ

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 07:04 AM   #19
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 634
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
He lost me when he said that "binary systems" and DNA were considerably younger than Ba Gua and the I Ching.
I had the same thought.

Ron

 
Old 08-07-2013, 07:16 AM   #20
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 596
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido. Aikido is not for explaining the origin of life and matter -- we have science for that.
Matthew

No need to bury this comment in a bottle in your back yard - I think this is one of the most sensible comments on this thread.
For the record I have been studying Aikido since 1957 - not the occasional week end course - but at length with the likes of Kenshiro Abbe Sensei - Nakazono Sensei - Noro Sensei - Assistant to TK Chiba Sensei.

Kind regards

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-stories.blogspot.com/
 
Old 08-07-2013, 07:34 AM   #21
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,740
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido. Aikido is not for explaining the origin of life and matter -- we have science for that.
Indeed...and this is a subject of another thread, I'm sure, but I'd love if some of those people could answer that question: why do you need aikido to be more than aikido? Of course, their proof-by-definition answer is that all that other stuff IS aikido. This is plainly nonsense, but try telling them that.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:07 AM   #22
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I had the same thought.

Ron
The modern binary systems or western adopted one is from around 1700 and genetics etc. as a subject is quite new.

So he's talking the things as you have been taught or aware of and comparing them to similar binary logic from way back when.

The key really is that prior to the adoption of algebra in the west by scholarly academia the what was zero?

Zero was treated as a something, a real thing. Funny thing is it led to better problem solving.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:28 AM   #23
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
He lost me when he said that "binary systems" and DNA were considerably younger than Ba Gua and the I Ching. DNA's been around for much much much longer than any book, martial style, or even the oldest common ancestor between humans and chimps . Numbering systems have been around longer than Ba Gua and the I Ching, but not as long as DNA.

The I Ching is a divinatory manual. For me, that puts it firmly in the same camp as tarot, ouija boards, throwing bones, cutting open a goat to read its entrails, flipping a coin or stepping on a crack. Superstition. Not terribly interested.

Zero is not a negative number. That fact weakens the guy's claims, in my opinion. Further weakening came when he dropped the zero and did a frame switch when he was talking about the 64 possible combinations of trigrams, which is really just an odd composite of a two byte, 3 bit/byte, binary valued system. That sort of frame switch drives the math geeks nuts. Dont talk about zero as a foundation for a supposedly spiritual argument, then leave it behind when you get to explaining reality.

Different cultures use wildly different numerical bases for their numbers. The Mayans used base 20. Babylonians used base 60 (that must have been either a composite base or a total pain in the ass). The Chinese used a composite unary, decimal, and positional system about the time the I Ching was written. Numerical bases are abstract, and therefore rather timeless. The use of specific numerical bases is a cultural artifact. Different cultures needed different numerical systems. Humans tend to prefer the decimal base because we have ten fingers. If we had 8 fingers, we'd tend to octal and that video may have had more of a leg to stand on.

The DNA thing is a profound stretch.

Did he really try to tie in The Matrix?

Maybe his video on finding one's soulmate is better.

We have very different worldviews. I assume that we both prefer to believe true things rather than false things. I am curious about your epistemology, why you believe the things you believe, and by what criteria you judge information for truthfulness. I am an engineer and a scientist. My epistemology is profoundly evidentiary, and in order to make sure my judgments are grounded in reality, I prefer methodological and humanistic naturalism and physicalism. What warrants your knowledge?
If he lost you then maybe it is to do with you. The subjects of binary and DNA are in the west considerably younger.

The IChing and Bagua considered divinatory manuals and thus discarded is once again missing the point. He is talking about the logic used to address and explain such things, the logic used in those subjects themselves....binary. Fundamental.

Past cultures and numeric systems has nothing to do with it and is way off the mark. I thought switching drove mathematicians nuts? Past cultures going way back also had various binary systems which would be more to the point. The question is what were they used for? Why were they used?

The other question is how comes spiritual devine subjects like bagua found such logic the best way to explain it's truth? How comes also great moves forward in problem solving resulted from using zero as in algebra? Thus in both spiritual and physical and mental such ways of looking revealed much until then hidden truths?

By the way, don't forget he pointed out at the beginning the third factor with regards to the yin and yang symbol which is the encompassing circle.

Peace.G.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:37 AM   #24
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

"The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe." Voltaire.

Carry on.

 
Old 08-07-2013, 09:51 AM   #25
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 634
United_States
Offline
Re: Ki energy defined

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The modern binary systems or western adopted one is from around 1700 and genetics etc. as a subject is quite new.

So he's talking the things as you have been taught or aware of and comparing them to similar binary logic from way back when.

The key really is that prior to the adoption of algebra in the west by scholarly academia the what was zero?

Zero was treated as a something, a real thing. Funny thing is it led to better problem solving.

Peace.G.
I guess, Graham, that I'm just not interested in exchanging one form of symbolic metaphor for another. The consistency of knowledge down thru the ages is often masked by the fact that symbols representing that knowledge are continually morphing.

Ron

 

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido and being Christian Nick Spiritual 178 07-31-2010 06:47 PM
What is "Aikido"? Mike Sigman Training 137 10-12-2006 08:06 PM
Stanislavsky and Ki DaveO General 11 01-20-2006 10:11 AM
Train In Ki And Why chadsieger Training 54 06-15-2002 10:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:36 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate