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Old 07-19-2013, 09:31 AM   #51
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Kenneth King wrote: View Post
Static stretching before a work out can be dangerous. It is important to warm your muscles up before stretching. Even the U.S. army revamped their physical training manuals and daily exercises to do light warm ups instead of stretching before a work out. Cool downs now consist of stretching to lengthen the muscles and tendons after the work out. This change was made in order to reduce the number of injuries sustained during physical training after careful study over many years. Science doesn't lie, whether or not you choose to accept is another story.
Interestingly, the science apparently says that you can't lengthen muscle and tendons and that stretching doesn't reduce injuries.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:31 AM   #52
KEM
Dojo: Aikido of Gainesville/ Gainesville, FL
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Re: Suwari Waza

My main issue isn't my knees (thankfully) its my toes! They don't bend THAT far back. I've tried to stretch them, tilt them etc. Just end up with very sore joint and no additional flexibility. So my suwari is done with my feet 'flat' against the mat...bad form I know. I have found it very instructional and in cases where I'm working with kids being able to move well in suwari is helpful to adjust to their height.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:55 AM   #53
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Kenneth King wrote: View Post
Static stretching before a work out can be dangerous. It is important to warm your muscles up before stretching. Even the U.S. army revamped their physical training manuals and daily exercises to do light warm ups instead of stretching before a work out. Cool downs now consist of stretching to lengthen the muscles and tendons after the work out. This change was made in order to reduce the number of injuries sustained during physical training after careful study over many years. Science doesn't lie, whether or not you choose to accept is another story.
Before the revamp they were right and after they are right and when the next phaze comes along they will be right too.

Not stretching can be dangerouus...how about that? That's actually more true.

So saying something CAN be doesn't mean it is. Drinking water CAN be dangerous.

With common sense introduced then there would only be one rule...stretch when necessary. Obviously big brother feels the need to tell you whats right and wrong and thus gives such rules.

Another basic is what do you mean by warm up? Stretching is or should be part of warm up. So once again it's down to knowing why? and how? It's not down to you musn't.

Plus why would someone stretch a muscle? Who said you must stretch muscles? Once again if that is a view that you have been using no wonder it all went pear shaped.

No doubt some expert and indeed 'fad' emerged along the way and everyone followed it and then further down the line noticed the damage and then went back to the same old experts and come up with a new fad. Then further down the line it's noticed damge occuring due to not doing so and then back to the drawing board.

There is more damage done by not stretching than by stretching so it's best to look at that.

Stretching IS warming up the tendons. Stretching is warming up therefor. Using the muscles is warming up the muscles. It's all warm up. It's all common sense.

The key is actually very simple and as yet I don't see anyone pointing it out. Why? Maybe it's too obvious. I have heard experts explain what they mean to do with stretching and it's possible adverse effects and why? and it's all to do with a simple thing yet most seem to disregard that important obvious thing and jump on some imaginary bandwagon reinforced by some new rules or orders.

The simple thing the 'researchers' originally were stating was that you should exercise or warm up or stretch only those parts which were going to be used. Simple.

A gun slinger may stretch his fingers or shake his hands first. Simple.

A golfer does a few practice swings first. Simple.

Wrist stretching exercises are well worth it if you are going to receive some kotegaishi. Simple.

The point is to remove tension and tightness. That's the whole point of warm up and stretching. That's the whole point in life too which is done naturally by you, animals and anyone you meet in everyday life anywhere on the planet. Common sense.

Expertise isn't the problem. Scientists isn't the problem. Scholars isn't the problem. Foolowing such at the expense of common sense is the problem.

Even formula one cars go through a warm up, exercising the parts which are going to be in play.

Geeze...people love demonizing things.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:34 AM   #54
graham christian
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Interestingly, the science apparently says that you can't lengthen muscle and tendons and that stretching doesn't reduce injuries.
Cliff, interesting only because people believe such nonsense in the first place and don't know what stretching is for or even what it is really.

So firstly stretching does reduce injuries.

Thinking stretching is about lengthening muscle or tendons is a false definition and so viewed from that and acted upon as that would cause injury but that is acting on a false definition. In other words stupid.

When your neck feels tight what do you do? When any part of your body feels tight in fact...what do you do? Yes you stretch it.

Are you tryuing to make muscles longer or tendons longer? No. So how on earth can people believe such nonsense in the first place?

Yoga stretches, in ballet they stretch and boy do they stretch. Do any of those folk say it's to make anything longer? No.

Words used by such folk are suppleness or such terminology. So we have two things happening..removing tightness or tension and on the plus side done as a discipline to increase suppleness, pliability.

So we see stretching is to do with these two things. Static stretching before doing something is thus obviously just a simple warm up, removing any tension or tightness. I don't care who the expert is but by demonstration if I was to say to them I was going to apply a strangle hold for example I would see them immediately do something stretching wise to do with their neck, an automatic reaction. Getting it ready. That's what stretching does...get the parts ready for action.

So we see stretching is to do with readying in the form of releasing tension and restoring normal pliability. Bottom line.

Normal pliability allows energy to pass through without damaging. Simple sense. Like taking any kinks out of the hose pipe.

By the way, stretching muscles is a thing...it exists...do you know where that exists?

It exists in body building and weight lifting. It's a mechanic of building extra muscle mass. In fact it's all to do with overstretching whilst tense, an interesting mechanic. The fibres are broken on purpose in order to make the body repair and increase the size. That's why they say no pain no gain.

If I go even deeper then we would be looking at muscles themselves and tendons themselves and a factor which relates to stretching and that factor as I said is pliability and suppleness. So what is it called? Elasticity.

They have or rather should have optimum elasticity and the main reason for them not having such is not purely down to exercise. Their are nutrients. The only reason you eat is for nutrients and the rest is passed out as waste. Certain nutrients are thus needed for the optimum elasticity of muscles and tendons. A mineral called magnesium is a prime example.

Thus it's good to see the whole picture.

Peace.G..
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:59 AM   #55
ken king
Dojo: St. Louis Aikikai
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Interestingly, the science apparently says that you can't lengthen muscle and tendons and that stretching doesn't reduce injuries.
Fair enough, I stand corrected!

Every day, life is training, every day, budo is life
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:14 PM   #56
phitruong
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Interestingly, the science apparently says that you can't lengthen muscle and tendons and that stretching doesn't reduce injuries.
no amount of stretching and/or strengthening will reduce injuries from stupidity.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #57
Rob Watson
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Re: Suwari Waza

Confusing range of motion movements with stretching does not help clarify anything. But, I don't base my understanding of martial arts on "samurai" movies either. I do like watching "Zatoichi" tho ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:31 PM   #58
phitruong
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
But, I don't base my understanding of martial arts on "samurai" movies either. I do like watching "Zatoichi" tho ...
hey, i have learned how to do reverse grip drawing and noto from watching Zatoichi. although, i almost changed my religion with my unsharpen iaito. it was a close call!

old Zatoichi or new?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #59
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Confusing range of motion movements with stretching does not help clarify anything. But, I don't base my understanding of martial arts on "samurai" movies either. I do like watching "Zatoichi" tho ...
That's stretching it

Mifune.....master,

Peace. G.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:42 PM   #60
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, i have learned how to do reverse grip drawing and noto from watching Zatoichi. although, i almost changed my religion with my unsharpen iaito. it was a close call!

old Zatoichi or new?
Hey, what self-respecting sword student hasn't tried the left-handed draw from Sanjuro?

Zatoichi, I like both old and new. Takeshi "Beat" Kitano is an extremely talented artist and his Zatoichi re-imagining is pretty good if eccentric and often surreal.

And iaito are pointy, they can hurt!
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #61
Chonin
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Re: Suwari Waza

Thanks for the feedback. More Shikko, Seiza(improving duration), stretching, walking and weight loss.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:04 PM   #62
Michael Varin
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Re: Suwari Waza

I'm sure this thread was a great help to the OP...

Can someone please explain to me from an anatomical, kinesthetic, and physiological point of view how seiza/shikko/suwariwaza damages the internal structure of one's knees. Because I don't think that it does. Abrasion and bruising to the skin definitely, but doesn't give someone bad knees.

Regarding stretching and warm ups:

If we kept ourselves healthy no warm up would be necessary on most occasions. Unfortunately, the vast majority of us are not healthy, and then proceed to add poorly performed physical activity in too large a quantity on top of it.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:47 PM   #63
graham christian
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Re: Suwari Waza

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I'm sure this thread was a great help to the OP...

Can someone please explain to me from an anatomical, kinesthetic, and physiological point of view how seiza/shikko/suwariwaza damages the internal structure of one's knees. Because I don't think that it does. Abrasion and bruising to the skin definitely, but doesn't give someone bad knees.

Regarding stretching and warm ups:

If we kept ourselves healthy no warm up would be necessary on most occasions. Unfortunately, the vast majority of us are not healthy, and then proceed to add poorly performed physical activity in too large a quantity on top of it.
Very simple really. You ever twisted an ankle? In suwariwaza the knees are now your 'feet.' Put all your weight on a foot and twist around and you'll cause damage.

Then there is the fact of the knees are not built as a joint the same as feet and can be a tender point for some but basically it means they need to get used to it.

Done correctly I agree with you that it doesn't give bad knees and in fact will make them stronger but it is best to also be aware of the various factors that can lead to damage.

I also agree with the point you make about health and I have also said so myself, not that I expect many to know about too much to do with that especially when it comes to joints and nutrition but as you say health then it's best to know from that viewpoint what the problems for some are.

For instance....I have trained with weight lifters and carpet fitters. These two things are where lots of knee damage has usually already been done before they attempt any suwariwaza. Thus they can find it very uncomfortable. So it's not always just down to assuming all knees and conditions of knees are the same.

Technically the damage has been caused by too much stress being put on their knees in their 'work' or activity. What damage is done? Well ligament strains is the usual thing and over time this actually causes build up of calcium deposits in their knees which in turn interferes with knee operation. As you see this is thus internal over time.

I remember one weight lifter who started many years ago and he carried on and did very well for he is now the top student at my old dojo. However, he had problems doing anything from the knees even though he was like hercules unchained. Anyway with advice he went to get it all checked out and low and behold he found what we said to be true. He actually had an op with a local anesthetic in a hospital and I always remember his description. He said they pulled out a white disc from behind his kneecap....made of calcium deposits buildup.

It's ok for youngsters but but only apparent later in life when you find out you have been doing something incorrectl;y for years and now suffering the reality.

So acting from fear to me is not the answer for that leads only to voices shouting about how dangerous and damaging things are. No, acting from sense means be aware of the 'wrong ways', be aware of the correct ways and also be aware that things can actually be strengthened.

Peace.G.
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