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Old 07-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #76
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hey, welcome to the madness Good video by the way. Competing ideas. I find the subject called debating flawed though for as he describes in the beginning it itself is a competition with the rules of destroying the oppositions points.
Really? Never having been on a debate team, I can't say, but I always thought the goal was to offer the more persuasive argument. Destruction seems beside the point.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'll let you into a little secret when it comes to folk asking or even telling me Buddhists don't believe in God.
I don't believe that was the statement, but I suppose it could be construed that way. The way that I'd describe Buddhism is as a philosophy and set of spiritual teachings and practices that do not address the question of whether or not there is a god, much less what its nature might be. Maybe because questions of the existence and nature of God are so central to the Big Three, those of us coming from a Big Three-dominated culture tend to see this as essential to a religion: different religions come up with different answers, but that's the question they all focus on. As Buddhism doesn't, maybe it's a religion and maybe it's not, but it seems to me fundamentally different than what we usually call "religion".
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:43 AM   #77
Krystal Locke
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Yup, I do loves me some good Hitch. Drunk as a bi.., ooh shouldn't say that, ok, a very drunk person, pissed in every sense of the word, completely mangling his lapel mic, extemporizing the way no other human could, unkempt beautiful Hitch.

A very kind couple of dojomates gave me his book Mortality as a good test gift a week before my nidan exam. I immediately read the first chapter, then put it away for when I had earned the gift.

Hitchen's rhetoric was a bit like I want my aikido to be, apparently sloppy but stealthily sharp, way over the top irimi, witty, and hopefully beautifully, incredibly human, honest, and real in the end.

Check out his answer to Dennis Prager's "test question" for atheists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sYYZbZ8lDw

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
A very good question!

there is an excellent debate to be seen and heard between Tony Blair and Christopher Hitchens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq2GmUa4s7Y

The motion is that "Religion is a force for good in the world"

This particular clip doesn't seem to have the final result attached, I have seen it elsewhere and Hitchens managed to sway the audience heavily to oppose the motion.

Blair is a consumate orator and a worthy spokesman for the religious argument, as much as I personally dislike the man for his actions whilst in office, you can't take away from him his forceful arguments. However, He is no match for Hitchens' humanity, reason, intelligence and brilliantly stated case. It is worth watching just for his opening 7 minutes, which brilliantly sums up why there is no chance of peace in the middle east, any time soon.

As far as I can see, the major religions are pretty much all competitive and exclusive and will remain so. I was under the impression that Buddhism is not a religion as there is no god to have faith in to start with.

And reading the debate on the thread here, competition is alive and well as usual.

regards,

Mark
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:31 AM   #78
Mark Freeman
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Hitchen's rhetoric was a bit like I want my aikido to be, apparently sloppy but stealthily sharp, way over the top irimi, witty, and hopefully beautifully, incredibly human, honest, and real in the end.
Ah, the perfection of Hitchenage, truly a worthy practice.....deep bow...

Quote:
Check out his answer to Dennis Prager's "test question" for atheists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sYYZbZ8lDw
I did, excellent, thanks. The rational, secular world owes this man a debt of gratitude for being such an erudite and charismatic champion for the cause.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:55 AM   #79
Mark Freeman
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I would not lump Buddhism together for any substantive discussion. The different sects and cultures who practice it are diverse, and not without their own problems.

Tibetan Buddhism is absolutely a religion, with a boat load of gods, demons, dogma, superstition, and fundamentalism. They are currently participating in a holy war against the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

Other varieties of pure land Buddhism also have piles of dogma and although they seem to be less violent than the Abrahamic cults, there could be societal, geographic, and situational mitigating factors. There are a few holy wars going on with Islam in southeast asia, but Islam seems to be soliciting holy war with pretty much everyone right now.

Zen is, in theory, without dogma and formless enough to be disqualified as a religion, but in practice often shows up as an exploitative hierarchy supporting a variety of abusive situations. Since this is indistinguishable from other "in practice" religions, I would hesitate to give it a pass.
Hi Benjamin,

As far as I understand things, Buddha did not want worship from followers, he offered a philosophy and teaching based on his own personal experience. Nothing was written down in his lifetime, all writing about his life happened many years after the event. So how accurate the reports are anybodies guess. Religions are based on the writings of men. I believe the same is true of the Christian gospels, all written after the event and subject to the writers own interpretations. There are no divine writings anywhere, every word man-made.

The fact that men twist and distort often sound teachings for their own ends is, it seems to me, the nature of 'men' through the ages (and it is mostly men) using the words to control and subjugate others .

On a demonstration in London not so long ago, a Muslim was waving a placard with the words "Kill all those who say that Islam is not a religion of peace"..... For me (apart from the delicious irony) it sums up all that is daft about blindly following belief, rather than looking for personal truth in the moment.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:34 AM   #80
bkedelen
 
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Everyone will benefit from reading "What Makes You Not a Buddhist" by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:10 AM   #81
Keith Larman
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Everyone will benefit from reading "What Makes You Not a Buddhist" by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse.
I'll second that recommendation -- just finished reading it a few days ago.

FWIW I came across the book after reading his article What Makes You a Buddhist. Good read.

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:02 PM   #82
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Really? Never having been on a debate team, I can't say, but I always thought the goal was to offer the more persuasive argument. Destruction seems beside the point.

I don't believe that was the statement, but I suppose it could be construed that way. The way that I'd describe Buddhism is as a philosophy and set of spiritual teachings and practices that do not address the question of whether or not there is a god, much less what its nature might be. Maybe because questions of the existence and nature of God are so central to the Big Three, those of us coming from a Big Three-dominated culture tend to see this as essential to a religion: different religions come up with different answers, but that's the question they all focus on. As Buddhism doesn't, maybe it's a religion and maybe it's not, but it seems to me fundamentally different than what we usually call "religion".
If only destruction was besides the point. It's explained how 'needed' it is in the intro to Marks video.

Buddhism as a whole doesn't concentrate on God as the same way what you call the big three do. I know Buddhists who believe in God and others who don't. The main difference is on what the concentration is on apart from not being exclusive monotheism. Buddha or the one generally known as Buddha believed in God when he went on his course of meditations etc. Within Buddhism there are also Devine beings and 'Gods' but the emphasis is on suffering and the reasons for it and the disciplines to overcome it.

Buddha himself viewed not much differently to how many nowadays view religion. He saw many praying to their Gods and acting like theirs is the true one and the results were basically division and rule and suffering. As he believed God was Good then he saw the truths of why all this madness happens in the name of God needed to be understood. Hence his spiritual path.

O'Sensei used Buddhist divinities in his spiritual sayings too.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #83
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Then also much in alignment with Ueshiba and his words is the factor of Kanagara. Being at the heart of shinto it is the non exclusive factor said to be necessary to all religions and said to be what is needed by them to make them better religions.

Now where have I heard that before?

Peace.G.
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:04 AM   #84
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

As this thread has been moved from spiritual...amazingly....I must share this little video.

I finally found an intellectual I love......it's a first! As this is open discussion then the video being a bit off topic doesn't matter......it's great and amazing though.....Enjoy. (It's only a couple of minutes)

http://youtu.be/QeDm2PrNV1I

Peace.G.
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Old 07-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #85
lbb
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

I think you're confusing your terms again. "Intellectual" and "Intelligent, well-informed and articulate (if we trust the translation) person" are two different things.
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:07 PM   #86
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think you're confusing your terms again. "Intellectual" and "Intelligent, well-informed and articulate (if we trust the translation) person" are two different things.
Well I'm glad you know the difference. No confusion this end. So does the little dude.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-16-2013, 06:37 PM   #87
lbb
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Well I'm glad you know the difference. No confusion this end. So does the little dude.

Peace.G.
So why did you call him an intellectual, then? Slip of the keyboard? That's cool, happens to the best of us.
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Old 07-16-2013, 06:44 PM   #88
graham christian
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Re: Religion....No Competition.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So why did you call him an intellectual, then? Slip of the keyboard? That's cool, happens to the best of us.
He is that unusual thing...an intelligent, articulate intellectual. No slip.

Peace.G.
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