Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #101
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 596
England
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

[quote=Keith Larman;

So I'll continue to take notes and get back to reading Dr. Goldsbury's latest installment. Fantastic stuff as usual.

I guess my point is this -- there are people here speaking to some of the best authorities alive on some of these topics, often with direct, relevant, and decades long experience. And yet it appears to be easier for some to continue with their own carefully constructed world-views based on, well, not much at all except small snippets of stuff someone else translated. I suggest that those people might want to consider starting up their own art calling it whatever they wish if they feel their insights are so overwhelmingly important and relevant to the world today. But if you're going to start making claims about what Ueshiba said or meant, or what Tomiki said or meant, well, maybe you should have a little more than what you got from selective reading of just a tiny percentage of the writings of these people. And maybe it would be good to pay more attention to what others with a vastly broader background are telling you.

Then again... I'm not holding my breath... So carry on.[/QUOTE]



Keith

I totally agree with everything you say, in particular the part posted above. appreciated.

Henry Ellis
Co- author ` Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 01:24 PM   #102
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
http://www.archbudo.com/get_pdf.php?IDMAN=12653.pdf
In this article there is an intersting quote :
"Tomiki was unable to find a chance to break Ueshiba's balance with judo techniques when sparring with Ueshiba in the summer of 1927"
Of course we don't know the rules of "sparring", but we can suppose Tomiki was allowed to attack or sparr with Ueshiba with his judo skills.
I also suppose, Kano didn't send Tomiki to challenge Ueshiba, so Tomiki took the initiative himself to challenge Ueshiba and was very impressed by Ueshiba's skills. We can assume, Tomiki spoke later with Kano about his experiences.
Around 1930 Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba.
There is another interesting quote :
Tomiki was affected by Kano's philosophical lectures during college. In 1927, soon after his graduation from Waseda University, Tomiki began practice with Morihei Ueshiba, later the founder of aikido. Tomiki was one of the first disciples of Ueshiba and was given the first 8th dan of aiki-budo by Ueshiba in 1940. Tomiki was in- quisitive and trained as an academic so he analysed the techniques of Ueshiba using the scientific principles that Kano invented. The event of the cause was Kano's en- couragement when Tomiki visited Kano with Takasaki at Kano's office at the Kodokan in March of 1936 to extend his regards to Kano prior to Tomiki leaving for Manchukuo. According to Tomiki, the following conver- sation took place between Kano and Tomiki [17, p.8]: Kano: It is necessary for us to learn techniques that you learned from Ueshiba. But it is not easy to learn.
Tomiki: If we study those techniques using the "Principles of Judo" or the scientific principles of judo that Master discovered, I think that it won't be impossible.

Just some thoughts,
Eddy
Fits in with what I said. Kano wanting a scientific breakdown of what Ueshiba did. Takeda's son said Tomiki was sent to Ueshiba by Kano. Takeda's son also said the difference between Judo and Daito ryu was that Judo had one on one matches.

So I don't see the problem with with what I said and it was common to be sent to learn from others at the direction of the teacher. (I wonder if that is done here in the west much?)

Does this contradict those renowned historians? I don't think so. It may add or even be part of the vast amount of data they also know but it certainly shouldn't contradict.

I send plenty people to others and many times get someone to take them personally so what's the problem?

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 04:41 PM   #103
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

I would put a bit more weight to the Stanley Pranin articles which are a bit more direct - including interviews with Tomiki himself.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=60

His introduction of Tomiki to Ueshiba is mentioned by Nishimura here http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=394

Last edited by PeterR : 07-03-2013 at 04:49 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 04:58 PM   #104
miso
Location: Scotland
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 19
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

There are some competing points of view here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 05:28 PM   #105
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I have always wondered about the theology connection. Tomiki, apparently studied all the Omoto-kyo texts in an attempt to understand Ueshiba's Aikido - he certainly thought the connection was important. Relatively few of Ueshiba's students delved to that depth and even today his honbu dojo has an Omoto-kyo shine (regularly blessed). That does not mean Tomiki accepted the Omoto-kyo teachings or that there wasn't a particular connection with Ueshiba's views on competition and his religious leanings but it does make me wonder about your premise.
Hello Peter,

I have become more convinced that Omoto is a crucial factor in understanding Ueshiba's martial thinking. What is available in English is OK as far as it goes. Kenji Tomiki had the advantage of living in the same era and of being able to talk to people like O Deguchi directly. However, I know that K Chiba, for example, did not accept Morihei Ueshiba's theology and at least one of my older aikido friends did not do so either. He and his family embraced Buddhism and he had no reason to change to Omoto merely because he was a student of M Ueshiba. R Shirata entered the Kobukan Dojo because he was already in Omoto, via his family. As I stated elsewhere, postwar Japanese deshi who entered the Aikikai Hombu will not have studied Omoto because of its connections with ultranationalism, and such study would have been discouraged after the war.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 01:49 AM   #106
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Peter,

I have become more convinced that Omoto is a crucial factor in understanding Ueshiba's martial thinking. What is available in English is OK as far as it goes. Kenji Tomiki had the advantage of living in the same era and of being able to talk to people like O Deguchi directly. However, I know that K Chiba, for example, did not accept Morihei Ueshiba's theology and at least one of my older aikido friends did not do so either. He and his family embraced Buddhism and he had no reason to change to Omoto merely because he was a student of M Ueshiba. R Shirata entered the Kobukan Dojo because he was already in Omoto, via his family. As I stated elsewhere, postwar Japanese deshi who entered the Aikikai Hombu will not have studied Omoto because of its connections with ultranationalism, and such study would have been discouraged after the war.

Best wishes,

PAG
Thanks for that Peter - as usual your understanding makes perfect sense to me. The above does not really answer my question concerning the connection between Ueshiba's views on competition and religion but that might be too specific and difficult to get a handle on. Cheers

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 04:46 AM   #107
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Thanks for that Peter - as usual your understanding makes perfect sense to me. The above does not really answer my question concerning the connection between Ueshiba's views on competition and religion but that might be too specific and difficult to get a handle on. Cheers
Hello again, Peter,

I think it is true that the reason why Kenji Tomiki studied the Omoto-kyo texts was to make sense of Morihei Ueshiba's explanations. You can see this in the introduction to the Budo Renshu volume (1933), which was also used for the Budo volume (1938). Budo Renshu was published a few years after Tomiki started training with Ueshiba in 1927 and he was clearly a senior member of the Kobukan by this time. (This is the impression I received from private conversations with Fumiaki Shishida.)

Deguchi started dictating Reikai Monogatari late in 1921 soon after his release on bail after the first suppression and revised his political theology after his return from Mongolia in 1924. So Morihei Ueshiba was in Ayabe during this revision and Tomiki would have had a ringside seat both for Ueshiba's practical study of jujutsu (recorded in the diaries of Admiral Takeshita) and for the creation of Ueshiba's theological cosmology.

So I think it is correct that the connection between Ueshiba's religious views and the ban on competition is not direct. The central fulcrum of connection is Ueshiba's Omoto-based theological cosmology and this relationship with his idea of bujutsu. The fundamental difference between this theologically-based bujutsu/budo and 'western' sports would be an important corollary.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 04:53 AM   #108
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 08:39 AM   #109
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

I understand the attraction non-competition has for some people and that it becomes an important part of their Aikido but I don't believe that that particular aspect defines Aikido. Ueshiba had quite a few unusual views that are pretty much universally ignored.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 08:35 AM   #110
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Universally ignored? Mmmmm. Maybe more like not understood or even misunderstood.

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 09:25 AM   #111
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,030
Japan
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

I was thinking about macrobiotics.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #112
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I was thinking about macrobiotics.
Something to chew on

Peace.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:26 AM   #113
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 610
United_States
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I was thinking about macrobiotics.
Peter,

That's an interesting area. The late Abe Seiseki said that Morihei ate macrobiotically when he came to visit him, but not at other times.

The common link between those two is Kenzo Futaki, a disciple of the late-19th/early 20th C. neo-Shinto revivalist Bonji Katsuwara. Futaki espoused both Katsuwara's (divinely inspired) misogo-no-gyo and the brown rice-based diet later made famous by George Ohsawa as macrobiotics. Futaki's source for the brown rice diet isn't so clear to me.

All that said, the impression I always had was that while a number of people who were deeply devoted to macrobiotics had associations with Morihei (and vice versa), and while he followed a "when in Rome....: practice with regard to his diet, he wasn't himself a rigorous macrobiotic eater.

But perhaps my information is incomplete....

Best,

Fred Little

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 12:40 PM   #114
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Hi Mr Little

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
The common link between those two is Kenzo Futaki, a disciple of the late-19th/early 20th C. neo-Shinto revivalist Bonji Katsuwara. Futaki espoused both Katsuwara's (divinely inspired) misogo-no-gyo and the brown rice-based diet later made famous by George Ohsawa as macrobiotics. Futaki's source for the brown rice diet isn't so clear to me.
Possibly from his contemporary, and M.D. too, Ishizuka Sagen.

OTOH, I'm reading these days your dissertation on Minakata Kumagusu, very interesting.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Competition again!!! dps General 50 08-28-2006 09:10 AM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
How about Demonstration Competition? DGLinden General 14 02-24-2004 02:54 AM
Tomiki Aikido and competition. jfearon General 72 03-23-2001 06:54 AM
the whole competition thing Nick General 26 02-05-2001 07:01 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:06 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate