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Old 06-30-2013, 05:33 PM   #76
CorkyQ
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Mr Quakenbush,

Many thanks for your response. I have been following the discussions in several threads and had a problem of whether to put the post in the Language thread or here. Since it was a response to what Christopher Li stated in Post #52 about what I would call Japanese attitudes to logic, I put it here, but it is relevant to the issues being discussed in the language thread.

If I want to find the reason why O Sensei prohibited competition I would read his discourses and since I can read Japanese, I would read them in the original. As I stated in my post, I found three different translations of the same statements forbidding competition, but was struck by what had been omitted in Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Memoir of the Master", and I cannot find any explanation from Mr Tanahashi and Mr Maurer in their "Translators'Forward" at the front of the book. As it happens, Hideo Takahashi gives an explanation at the end of the Japanese edition of Takemusu Aiki about how the discourses published therein were made and Aikido Giho notes that they were selected from notes made during Morihei Uesiba's lectures to the Byakko Shinko Kai, which is an offshoot of Omoto-kyou.

In your post, you mention the "real intention behind wanting to know if and why O Sensei prohibited competition" and I assume that by "real intention" you mean something other than the explanations given in the discourses. However, I do not entirely agree with you.

A few years ago I held a meeting with Okumura Shigenobu and Tada Hiroshi, both Hombu shihans, in order to clarify the views of Morihei Ueshiba about competition. The thread in the Language forum was begun many years before this meeting and when I contributed to the thread, I had not read all of O Sensei's discourses published in Japanese. Since then, I rectified this omission, but was struck by Morihei Ueshiba's rather disdainful attitude to ‘Western sports'. (His treatment of this can be found in one of Stan Pranin's articles in the Aikido Journal forum.) The meeting was very fruitful and I learned much about O Sensei's thinking from two of his close students.

Did I have a "real intention behind wanting to know if and why O Sensei prohibited competition"? Other than trying to clarify for myself why he forbade matches, I do not think so. Was I trying to "find an excuse not to refrain from them"? Absolutely not. I took up aikido many years ago because it was not a competitive sport and have never changed my attitude.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
Thanks so very much for your attention to this subject and my responses, Mr. Goldsbury.

In the zoo are signs that say "Feeding the Animals is Prohibited."

People who understand the purpose and intention of the ban don't pose the question "what's the philosophy behind it," because they understand - even if they want to feed the animals.

There are some who have no desire to feed the animals who still might ask about the reasons for the ban out of curiosity or for their edification. I imagine that this is an apt analogy to your cited inquiry.

There are others who ask because they want to feed the animals and are looking for a loop hole.

I see what you mean, Mr. Goldsbury. I was only referring to the former and latter groups.

I had approached the original question "What is the philosophy behind that Aikido shouldn't have competitions?" at the level of intention. It could be a question raised out of curiosity, but the answers given in support of non-competition generally reflect the idea competition would be detrimental because it is antithetical to the (disputable) principles of aikido (those responders get why you are not supposed to feed the animals).

Other answers argue that competition in aikido has benefits, and the inquiry into the philosophy of non-competition is ignored. These seem to me to be like those who want to feed the animals, so they might be looking for rationale (The animals have a special diet - they really mean don't throw junk food in their pens). Some will look for rationale to ignore it (They are fed on a schedule - That big bear is hungry now and a peanut is not going to ruin his appetite). Others challenge the veracity of the prohibition (they don't really mean it, they had to put up that sign for legal purposes, or, The Panda keeper is actually Chinese and the words he was quoted for the sign may or may not mean prohibited). The answers they receive may or may not change their minds about feeding the animals/(competition in aikido), but it was the desire to feed the animals that prompted their question. Those were who I was speaking to and of.

So I what I meant to convey by my declaration is those who believe that aikido is best served without the addition of competition wouldn't be asking the question. They have an answer that they feel is backed up by their own understanding of the nature of both aikido and competition.

In terms of a practical answer, only those who do not see the discrepancy in the purpose of aikido and that of competitive arts would pose the question.

Unless they are just asking out of curiosity! Then the answer can only be "Nobody knows because there has apparently never been a 100% accurate, agreed upon translation of anything Osensei ever said!"

It is clear you have studied Osensei's policies. Do you think they originated from principle or from arbitrary preferences?

When I see "strictly prohibited" or other phrases that seem pretty clear to me, I have to wonder how "off" a translation can be to render the words "strictly prohibited" from something less direct, something that would mean that somehow competition is okay, like "allowed on a specific limited basis." You would certainly know more than me ten thousand times over, and you have made it clear that perhaps it isn't as clear as it seems.

But entering the world of "philosophy behind no competitions" what seems to be most important is understanding of why aikido would be set apart from other arts that actually encourage competition.

If Osensei only prohibited aikido because he had a disdain for Western sports, doesn't it follow that his was an arbitrary command? "No competition because Osensei says so. He doesn't like Western sports so competitions are off the menu."

But then, why would Osensei feel that way about Western sports?

Could it be that he did not see aikido as competitive because the goals of his practice were different from the goals of competitive activities?

My most esteemed reader, Mr. Goldsbury, the depth of your knowledge of Morihei Ueshiba cannot even be bushed by my paltry, ground level knowlege, all born from English translations.

But is it not true that the great body of Osensei's teachings, if hefted onto a balance, would tip toward aikido being more about producing a mutually beneficial ending to conflict than one in which someone loses while the other wins?

Unless I am mistaken about Osensei, then it would stand to reason the principle for prohibiting competition must be similar to the principle which distinguishes aikido from competitive martial arts.

Sincerely,

CQ
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:43 PM   #77
CorkyQ
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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i had done competing in various events, physical (martial as well as non) as well as non-physical. i usually, not always, didn't give much thought on winning or losing. i just competed. sometimes i won through skill, other time i lost through luck. maybe for you, competition is about winning or losing, but not for me. i don't know you, but believe me, i know me quite well.
The definition of compete includes having the goal of winning. The fact that you "didn't give much thought on winning or losing" is irrelevant to the motivations of competition because you weren't competing.

But while we're on the subject of joining competitive activities without competing...

The game "Sorry" is great because you can play it to win or you can play in such a way that advances everyone else.

The object of the game is to get all your pieces onto the board, around it, and finally to a "Home" point at the end of the line before any other player. So it is a competition.

I have played the game two ways - wanting to win or wanting to use every opportunity to help my opponents!

Playing for everyone in the game to receive the maximum benefit and least detriment from my choices in the game is one way to play. Using the game cards to advance myself to Home while trying to keep the others from succeeding is another, and the more typical way of playing.

When played for an enjoyable experience for all, using all my opportunities to advance as many of the players and working to diminish any harmful effects to others, I am not competing, am I? Even though the game is producing a winner and losers, I don't have the spirit of competition, do I? I just have interest in seeing how things turn out without trying to best anyone.

Other times I can be a cut-throat competitor sending my loved ones back to start with the callousness of a dictator.

The interesting part is that though you are forced to make choices in the game that significantly inhibit the progress of your opponents or inadvertently add to it, the random factors of the game render those effects, seemingly large at the time, to be relatively insignificant in the long run. I have never found the outcome relative to anything anyone does to anyone else in the game except in the most marginal way.

The difference in the outcome depending how the game is played can be dramatic! When people play cooperatively they appreciate the way the game decides whose game pieces all reach "Home" first. Though one may be declared the winner, everyone celebrates who had the luck of the draw.

When they play to win they feel bad losing, like if they had made other choices or not been so nice they would have won. Or if they win they can feel like they are special or smart or have superior skills that had something to do with it.

Might those spiritual effects have anything to do with a "strict prohibition" regarding competition in aikido?
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:26 AM   #78
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Dear Mr Quakenbush,

Many thanks for your detailed response.

With respect to your metaphor about feeding zoo animals, I have not been to a zoo for many years. I do not entirely approve of such institutions, but that is a separate discussion. The only injunctions about feeding the animals I see are the signs in Miyajima against feeding the deer that wander around the precincts of the Itsukushima Shrine. I think the logic behind these signs is quite straightforward. I would also think it depends on the animals in question, for it took Pi quite a while to work out how to feed Richard Parker -- to ensure their own survival.

In my international activities connected with aikido, I meet many members of sports organizations, especially judo, karate, kendo and sumo. All interpret competition in varying ways and all have a robust curiosity about aikido -- how it can manage as a ‘sport' without competition. Some simply decide it is not a sport at all; other define ‘sport' in a more subtle way, to allow for sports that do not have matches with referees etc. In a recent discussion I had, with a kick-boxing official, I suggested that they look at Wittgenstein's discussion of games and family resemblances. Thus, I do not entirely agree, either with Morihei Ueshiba's rather low opinion of western sports, or with your rather narrow view of competition (cf. your response to Phi Truong's post #73). The Japanese language has terms for a more flexible view of competition.

Personally, I think you cannot separate Ueshiba's views on competition from his views on religion and this also involves Omoto theology, and so I wonder to what extent Kenji Tomiki accepted the theological way in which Ueshiba expressed his views. This assumes, of course, that he understood them and I have no evidence that he did not. Kenji Tomiki became a student of Morihei Ueshiba before Minoru Mochizuki and it is plausible to believe that he changed his training methods and his views about teaching after the war, partly as a result of his own wartime experiences.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:00 AM   #79
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

I don't think O Sensei prohibited every kind of competition.

Some of us claim that our art is the least competitive, the most peaceful, the most friendly or the most civilized in the world or that is has to be, because O Sensei did want it like this.

How do we know? Even if he did, he probably should have thought better. Isn't that starting a new kind of competition? Why on earth did they introduce the grading system then? What are Dan grades meant to be then? Why on earth do we have to compete for money in daily life, so that we are able to pay our grading fees?

Why can't we get everything without struggling?
Obviously, we can't get away from competitions of some sort, even in aikido.

We should not throw away our common sense too quickly.
Seems, life itself is an eternal competition.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:28 AM   #80
CorkyQ
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Dear Mr Quakenbush,

Many thanks for your detailed response.

With respect to your metaphor about feeding zoo animals, I have not been to a zoo for many years. I do not entirely approve of such institutions, but that is a separate discussion. The only injunctions about feeding the animals I see are the signs in Miyajima against feeding the deer that wander around the precincts of the Itsukushima Shrine. I think the logic behind these signs is quite straightforward. I would also think it depends on the animals in question, for it took Pi quite a while to work out how to feed Richard Parker -- to ensure their own survival.

In my international activities connected with aikido, I meet many members of sports organizations, especially judo, karate, kendo and sumo. All interpret competition in varying ways and all have a robust curiosity about aikido -- how it can manage as a ‘sport' without competition. Some simply decide it is not a sport at all; other define ‘sport' in a more subtle way, to allow for sports that do not have matches with referees etc. In a recent discussion I had, with a kick-boxing official, I suggested that they look at Wittgenstein's discussion of games and family resemblances. Thus, I do not entirely agree, either with Morihei Ueshiba's rather low opinion of western sports, or with your rather narrow view of competition (cf. your response to Phi Truong's post #73). The Japanese language has terms for a more flexible view of competition.

Personally, I think you cannot separate Ueshiba's views on competition from his views on religion and this also involves Omoto theology, and so I wonder to what extent Kenji Tomiki accepted the theological way in which Ueshiba expressed his views. This assumes, of course, that he understood them and I have no evidence that he did not. Kenji Tomiki became a student of Morihei Ueshiba before Minoru Mochizuki and it is plausible to believe that he changed his training methods and his views about teaching after the war, partly as a result of his own wartime experiences.
Thank you for your response, Mr. Goldsbury.

I have only one last question, relevant to this thread. What is the philosophy behind that Aikido shouldn't have competitions?
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:58 AM   #81
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Personally, I think you cannot separate Ueshiba's views on competition from his views on religion and this also involves Omoto theology, and so I wonder to what extent Kenji Tomiki accepted the theological way in which Ueshiba expressed his views. This assumes, of course, that he understood them and I have no evidence that he did not. Kenji Tomiki became a student of Morihei Ueshiba before Minoru Mochizuki and it is plausible to believe that he changed his training methods and his views about teaching after the war, partly as a result of his own wartime experiences.
I have always wondered about the theology connection. Tomiki, apparently studied all the Omoto-kyo texts in an attempt to understand Ueshiba's Aikido - he certainly thought the connection was important. Relatively few of Ueshiba's students delved to that depth and even today his honbu dojo has an Omoto-kyo shine (regularly blessed). That does not mean Tomiki accepted the Omoto-kyo teachings or that there wasn't a particular connection with Ueshiba's views on competition and his religious leanings but it does make me wonder about your premise.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:40 AM   #82
graham christian
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Dear Mr Quakenbush,

Many thanks for your detailed response.

With respect to your metaphor about feeding zoo animals, I have not been to a zoo for many years. I do not entirely approve of such institutions, but that is a separate discussion. The only injunctions about feeding the animals I see are the signs in Miyajima against feeding the deer that wander around the precincts of the Itsukushima Shrine. I think the logic behind these signs is quite straightforward. I would also think it depends on the animals in question, for it took Pi quite a while to work out how to feed Richard Parker -- to ensure their own survival.

In my international activities connected with aikido, I meet many members of sports organizations, especially judo, karate, kendo and sumo. All interpret competition in varying ways and all have a robust curiosity about aikido -- how it can manage as a ‘sport' without competition. Some simply decide it is not a sport at all; other define ‘sport' in a more subtle way, to allow for sports that do not have matches with referees etc. In a recent discussion I had, with a kick-boxing official, I suggested that they look at Wittgenstein's discussion of games and family resemblances. Thus, I do not entirely agree, either with Morihei Ueshiba's rather low opinion of western sports, or with your rather narrow view of competition (cf. your response to Phi Truong's post #73). The Japanese language has terms for a more flexible view of competition.

Personally, I think you cannot separate Ueshiba's views on competition from his views on religion and this also involves Omoto theology, and so I wonder to what extent Kenji Tomiki accepted the theological way in which Ueshiba expressed his views. This assumes, of course, that he understood them and I have no evidence that he did not. Kenji Tomiki became a student of Morihei Ueshiba before Minoru Mochizuki and it is plausible to believe that he changed his training methods and his views about teaching after the war, partly as a result of his own wartime experiences.
Re: Tomiki, as I understand it he was 'sent' to Ueshiba to learn Aikido (or aikijutsu) by Kano. Thus he was a judo man at heart. It's interesting that even Takeda said the only difference between daito ryu and judo was that judo had one on one competitions.

Meanwhile daito ryu was connected in origin to the kojiki as far as I am aware. So I think he wanted to learn in order to form his own 'mix'. Wouldn't it be interesting if he had called it Tomiki Judo.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:50 AM   #83
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Graham,

Tomiki was introduced to Morihei Ueshiba by one of his friends from the Waseda University Judo Club called Hidetaro Nishimura who also was an Oomoto believer.

And 'everything' is connected in origin to the Kojiki.

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Old 07-02-2013, 10:57 AM   #84
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quoting O'Sensei may serve a purpose to some. It comes down to a choice for ourselves.
This art that I practice has no room for competition with others... for me it would be a distraction from victory over myself.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:01 AM   #85
graham christian
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Graham,

Tomiki was introduced to Morihei Ueshiba by one of his friends from the Waseda University Judo Club called Hidetaro Nishimura who also was an Oomoto believer.

And 'everything' is connected in origin to the Kojiki.
Demetrio, that may well be the physical occurrence but I give you the reason. Whatever your 'everything' means I don't know but I'm talking specifically not generally. Do you know the connection specifically?

Of course, you were not there and are not him and neither am I but such is my understanding.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-02-2013, 12:00 PM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Demetrio, that may well be the physical occurrence but I give you the reason.
"Tomiki, as I understand it he was 'sent' to Ueshiba to learn Aikido (or aikijutsu) by Kano". No, he wasn't.

Quote:
Whatever your 'everything' means I don't know but I'm talking specifically not generally.
The Kojiki tells us the mythological origins of Japan. Is their Genesis book, so generally 'everything' comes from it.

Quote:
Do you know the connection specifically?
Between Daito-ryu and the Kojiki? Allegedly, the match between Takemikazuchi no Kami and Takeminakata no Kami.

Regards.

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Old 07-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #87
graham christian
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"Tomiki, as I understand it he was 'sent' to Ueshiba to learn Aikido (or aikijutsu) by Kano". No, he wasn't.

The Kojiki tells us the mythological origins of Japan. Is their Genesis book, so generally 'everything' comes from it.

Between Daito-ryu and the Kojiki? Allegedly, the match between Takemikazuchi no Kami and Takeminakata no Kami.

Regards.
So as I said...from the kojiki. 'Generally' is irrelevant unless you think bull fighting came from Genesis.

You don't think he was sent by Kano....well I do.

Tomiki loved that one on one match as part of judo so it's quite obvious he would see it as beneficial.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:46 PM   #88
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

This is getting to be a long thread.
My ha'penneth is this ;
Ueshiba understood the fudged-up tangle that two Aikidoka enmesh themselves into if both are trying to apply Aikido to one another competitively. (CorkyQ educated himself with this as he mentioned.)
It just isn't a satisfying art to apply against itself. It all becomes wrestling, and that's not the desired appearance.
Assymetric application is the key : one attacks, one does Aikido. everything else is delusional.
I believe Ueshiba realised this ages ago and it's ONE of the reasons he forbade competition within Aikido.

( It has been tentatively touched upon that there would be some hypocrisy if one forbade competition and yet still indulged in it in various forms. Well .. duhuh! But let's all be quiet about that, eh? )
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:56 PM   #89
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Mochizuki volunteered to go train with Ueshiba and send monthly reports to Kano. I believe that Tomiki was, indeed, introduced by Hidetaro Nishimura from the Waseda Judo Club.

Daito-ryu claims origins in the ancient art of Tegoi - that art is mentioned in the Kojiki, which is, I believe, the extent of the "connection" (like saying that I'm "connected" with the Bible because I've been to Israel, and Israel is mentioned in the Bible). Daito-ryu as an art is not generally concerned with the Kojiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-02-2013, 03:40 PM   #90
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Mochizuki volunteered to go train with Ueshiba and send monthly reports to Kano. I believe that Tomiki was, indeed, introduced by Hidetaro Nishimura from the Waseda Judo Club.

Daito-ryu claims origins in the ancient art of Tegoi - that art is mentioned in the Kojiki, which is, I believe, the extent of the "connection" (like saying that I'm "connected" with the Bible because I've been to Israel, and Israel is mentioned in the Bible). Daito-ryu as an art is not generally concerned with the Kojiki.

Best,

Chris
The tegoi indeed. The connection is one given by the Takeda family as their heritage no? Traditional Daito Ryu thus with it's lineage from before sumo to Daito (place of origin) to system. Thus a martial art with divine origins in form so unless you know of a similar martial art practiced by 'Gods' of Judaism or even formed due to the 'gods' then the use of Bible or whatever is not relevant. Applies to some Buddhist arts though no doubt ie: shaolin.

Unless of course you trace some European martial art to it's spiritual beginnings of course.

Daito Ryu is also said to be proudly connected with Kojiki. Maybe it's only westerners who tend to dismiss this.

So was Hidetaru acting on behalf of Kano? Or do you just stop there at that one factor?

As I understand it Kano is even reported to have said Ueshiba's art was 'perfect judo'. I also understand he wanted some of his top students to go learn it. So volunteers or sent.....at his request although a request by such a man is more like an order.

Also into my reasoning re: Tomiki is the fact of what else Judo did and more importantly Kano did for the future of Judo. His whole aim was for the systematic style teaching and such was the way of his top students like Tomiki. Hence, just like Tohei, Tomiki formulated such an approach he felt would serve better. In fact Kano although admiring Ueshiba virtually 'laughed' at his teaching method.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:06 PM   #91
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So as I said...from the kojiki. 'Generally' is irrelevant unless you think bull fighting came from Genesis.

You don't think he was sent by Kano....well I do.

Tomiki loved that one on one match as part of judo so it's quite obvious he would see it as beneficial.

Peace.G.
Yeah, whatever.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:13 PM   #92
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Interestingly, those who have admitted to no interest or ability in history in the past on multiple occasions continue to cite historical sources.

The last thing that I'll say on this issue is - the sources are out there for those who are interested in the historical record.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:57 PM   #93
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

One thing I have noticed is a form of competition prevalent in all styles of aikido. What I'm talking about is the competition to continually have a higher kyu or dan grade than other aikido practitioners. Often this urge to have a higher grade is not matched by a commensurate increase in skill level. I believe this "obsession" to be just as unhealthy as the negative aspects of competition matches.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:11 PM   #94
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Interesting how some who pride themselves in historical data can't acknowledge when given some by someone not in their 'field'.

But hey, I'm used to it for sooner or later they dig up something which validates what I said before.

Think I'll start a little history thread.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:16 PM   #95
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Interesting how some who pride themselves in historical data can't acknowledge when given some by someone not in their 'field'.
.
You haven't presented any data - you've made some assertion, but presented no data.

Drawn in again, but this time I'm out for real.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:33 PM   #96
graham christian
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You haven't presented any data - you've made some assertion, but presented no data.

Drawn in again, but this time I'm out for real.

Best,

Chris
Chris, I expect you to already know the data being a historian. In which case you know it's not my assertions.

Just say what I said about Tomiki being sent to Ueshiba is true according to ***** and then there will be nothing to be drawn into. Simples.

Otherwise you could say not as far as you know. That's fine too.

Peace.G.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:26 AM   #97
ewolput
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

http://www.archbudo.com/get_pdf.php?IDMAN=12653.pdf
In this article there is an intersting quote :
"Tomiki was unable to find a chance to break Ueshiba's balance with judo techniques when sparring with Ueshiba in the summer of 1927"
Of course we don't know the rules of "sparring", but we can suppose Tomiki was allowed to attack or sparr with Ueshiba with his judo skills.
I also suppose, Kano didn't send Tomiki to challenge Ueshiba, so Tomiki took the initiative himself to challenge Ueshiba and was very impressed by Ueshiba's skills. We can assume, Tomiki spoke later with Kano about his experiences.
Around 1930 Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba.
There is another interesting quote :
Tomiki was affected by Kano's philosophical lectures during college. In 1927, soon after his graduation from Waseda University, Tomiki began practice with Morihei Ueshiba, later the founder of aikido. Tomiki was one of the first disciples of Ueshiba and was given the first 8th dan of aiki-budo by Ueshiba in 1940. Tomiki was in- quisitive and trained as an academic so he analysed the techniques of Ueshiba using the scientific principles that Kano invented. The event of the cause was Kano's en- couragement when Tomiki visited Kano with Takasaki at Kano's office at the Kodokan in March of 1936 to extend his regards to Kano prior to Tomiki leaving for Manchukuo. According to Tomiki, the following conver- sation took place between Kano and Tomiki [17, p.8]: • Kano: It is necessary for us to learn techniques that you learned from Ueshiba. But it is not easy to learn.
• Tomiki: If we study those techniques using the "Principles of Judo" or the scientific principles of judo that Master discovered, I think that it won't be impossible.

Just some thoughts,
Eddy
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:12 AM   #98
PeterR
 
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

As usual when these sort of threads get this long its best to put down the trump card.
http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical...y-kenji-tomiki

He does a great job of putting kata/shiai into historical context - the debate raged in schools of kenjutsu long before aikido - and also I think demonstrates that much of Ueshiba's other views were not that unique either (loving protection).

Finally my favourite Tomiki quote"Those that understand, understand perfectly"

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:41 AM   #99
PeterR
 
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

By the way - just so there is no "confusion". I chose the above site because of the ease of reading. The article itself was written in the aikido context - although it does resonate across several budo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #100
Keith Larman
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

I have read with some amusement. There are those who have spent the years (excuse me, decades) studying directly in Japan sometimes with many of the very people we so casually discuss. There are also those who are professional translators who agonize over fine distinctions of meaning.

Then there are those who read tiny bits of sometimes not-so-great translations which is itself only a tiny part of the overall writings let along the unwritten history who then cherry pick only those tiniest of bits that can be twisted and contorted in to fitting a pre-existing world view. There is no arguing because evidence, knowledge, experience are not relevant to some. The only thing that matters is that they've intuited what they consider to be the greater truth. Hence only those things that confirm that truth will ring true for them. And only those things will be accepted as relevant.

All that said, I am astounded at the vast patience and polite, courteous writing of those who've spent their lifetimes studying these things like Dr. Goldsbury.

Didn't have anything else to add because quite frankly folk like Dr. Goldsbury, Mr. Rehse here, Mr. Li and others who have posted have vastly more foundation from which to speak than some of the Nidan Shihan-types posting. Which, incidentally, someone called me, well, years ago and it stung at the time. And he was right. The ensuing years (decades) have greatly mellowed my omniscience. Funny how that works.

So I'll continue to take notes and get back to reading Dr. Goldsbury's latest installment. Fantastic stuff as usual.

I guess my point is this -- there are people here speaking to some of the best authorities alive on some of these topics, often with direct, relevant, and decades long experience. And yet it appears to be easier for some to continue with their own carefully constructed world-views based on, well, not much at all except small snippets of stuff someone else translated. I suggest that those people might want to consider starting up their own art calling it whatever they wish if they feel their insights are so overwhelmingly important and relevant to the world today. But if you're going to start making claims about what Ueshiba said or meant, or what Tomiki said or meant, well, maybe you should have a little more than what you got from selective reading of just a tiny percentage of the writings of these people. And maybe it would be good to pay more attention to what others with a vastly broader background are telling you.

Then again... I'm not holding my breath... So carry on.

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