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Old 04-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Excerpt from:

The Dawn of Tomiki Aikido
by Seiji Tanaka

First of all, I would like to explain how, where and why Tomiki Aikido started. It goes back to the month of April, 1958 when Waseda University approved our Aikido Club as an officially sanctioned sport club (called “Undo Bu” in Japanese), while no other universities recognized any Aikido clubs as such. Instead, all other Aikido clubs were called “Doko-Kai”, meaning a loosely organized club made up with people of the same interest. These unsanctioned sport clubs had neither the prestige nor the status of other sanctioned clubs such as Judo, Kendo, Karate, baseball, soccer, and other major sport clubs.

Prior to April, 1958, there was no Aikido club, even at Waseda University. Professor Kenji Tomiki was the Judo instructor and he taught Aikido to some members of the Waseda Judo Club before or after Judo practice. Obviously this arrangement had many limitations for developing truly well-trained Aikidokas.

I was very fortunate to be a freshman in this historical year of 1958. the Japanese school year begins in April, so that I could receive Professor Tomiki’s instructions from the club’s first day as a fully sanctioned sport club and benefit from his burning desire and profound vision of making Aikido the same as Judo, Kendo, and Karate.

One of the strict requirements attached to this official recognition by Waseda University was a stipulation of being able to measure and/or judge the progress and ability of Aikido students. In other words, any clubs belonging to the official Athletic Association must have competition of some fashion. This prerequisite was most welcome by Professor Tomiki, who had his dream to make Aikido as competitive and as internationally popular as Judo.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=625
Notice that the article says that Tomiki was enthusiastic about the change - which invalidates the OP's theory. Also, my original point about the Aikikai club starting from 1960 was that university facilities clearly were available for use, even without competition. Of course, with competition comes a bigger slice of the economic pie - so it comes down to money, in a sense.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2013, 05:28 AM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

There is nothing that I disagree with in Mr Tanaka’s article, but I think it needs a context. In addition to Kenji Tomiki’s strong connection with Waseda University, there were two students at Waseda also with strong connections to aikido. One was Kisshomaru Ueshiba, who became the head of the Kobukan Dojo while a student at Waseda in 1942.

More directly relevant to Tomiki-shi is the case of Hiroshi Tada, who was a member of Waseda University karate club, which was founded well before the aikido club of which Mr Tanaka speaks. Tada Shihan was taught by Gichin Funakoshi, but entered the Aikikai Hombu in 1950, while still a student at Waseda. He appears to have had a major role in starting an aikido club at Waseda that had links with the Aikikai. This club celebrated its 50th anniversary last year and so would have been founded around 1961 or 1962. I have it from Tada Shihan directly that this club was created as a reaction to the official insistence at Waseda that any clubs in the sports association had to have some form of competition.

I never knew Tomiki Shihan, but I knew his student Okumura Shigenobu quite well. Okumura Shihan talked of Tomiki Sensei changing the style of his aikido and I suspect that this might have had something to do with his experience as a POW in Russia. Okumura Shihan was also a POW and I understand that the experience was harrowing for both of them. Even now, competition is still a very sensitive subject and one indication of this is that it is not discussed openly. I stuck my neck out once and held a meeting at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo to discuss the subject of competition. The meeting was quite strongly opposed by the Aikikai, but I stuck to my guns and the meeting took place. It was attended by Okumura and Tada Shihans and lasted three hours.

This requirement about competition might have been due to the strong position of judo and karate at Waseda. There are sports associations (tai-iku-kai) at all the major universities in Japan and I was have had a close connection with the Tai-iku-tai at Hiroshima University. Judo was and is also quite strong at Hiroshima University, so the university has a large, purpose built judo dojo. However, the university tai-iku-kai has never been able to insist on the necessity of competition for other clubs, like aikido and shorinji kempo. The Hirodai aikido club is affiliated to the tai-iku-kai, but there are two other aikido clubs at the university that are not affiliated. All the clubs can practice in the dojo and the only problem is finding a time that avoids conflict with other clubs. The tai-iku-kai probably had some prestige, but it now has the reputation of being too closely tied to tradition and interpreting the sempai-kohai relationship too rigidly. Much hazing went on in the tai-iku-kai martial arts clubs that was tacitly condoned by the university and this sometimes led to serious accidents.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 04-09-2013 at 05:30 AM.

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:11 AM   #28
Marc Abrams
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
There is nothing that I disagree with in Mr Tanaka's article, but I think it needs a context. In addition to Kenji Tomiki's strong connection with Waseda University, there were two students at Waseda also with strong connections to aikido. One was Kisshomaru Ueshiba, who became the head of the Kobukan Dojo while a student at Waseda in 1942.

More directly relevant to Tomiki-shi is the case of Hiroshi Tada, who was a member of Waseda University karate club, which was founded well before the aikido club of which Mr Tanaka speaks. Tada Shihan was taught by Gichin Funakoshi, but entered the Aikikai Hombu in 1950, while still a student at Waseda. He appears to have had a major role in starting an aikido club at Waseda that had links with the Aikikai. This club celebrated its 50th anniversary last year and so would have been founded around 1961 or 1962. I have it from Tada Shihan directly that this club was created as a reaction to the official insistence at Waseda that any clubs in the sports association had to have some form of competition.

I never knew Tomiki Shihan, but I knew his student Okumura Shigenobu quite well. Okumura Shihan talked of Tomiki Sensei changing the style of his aikido and I suspect that this might have had something to do with his experience as a POW in Russia. Okumura Shihan was also a POW and I understand that the experience was harrowing for both of them. Even now, competition is still a very sensitive subject and one indication of this is that it is not discussed openly. I stuck my neck out once and held a meeting at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo to discuss the subject of competition. The meeting was quite strongly opposed by the Aikikai, but I stuck to my guns and the meeting took place. It was attended by Okumura and Tada Shihans and lasted three hours.

This requirement about competition might have been due to the strong position of judo and karate at Waseda. There are sports associations (tai-iku-kai) at all the major universities in Japan and I was have had a close connection with the Tai-iku-tai at Hiroshima University. Judo was and is also quite strong at Hiroshima University, so the university has a large, purpose built judo dojo. However, the university tai-iku-kai has never been able to insist on the necessity of competition for other clubs, like aikido and shorinji kempo. The Hirodai aikido club is affiliated to the tai-iku-kai, but there are two other aikido clubs at the university that are not affiliated. All the clubs can practice in the dojo and the only problem is finding a time that avoids conflict with other clubs. The tai-iku-kai probably had some prestige, but it now has the reputation of being too closely tied to tradition and interpreting the sempai-kohai relationship too rigidly. Much hazing went on in the tai-iku-kai martial arts clubs that was tacitly condoned by the university and this sometimes led to serious accidents.
Peter:

It was my teacher, Shizuo Imaizumi, who petitioned the Hombu Dojo to get an Aikikai Aikido Club started at Waseda University. Tada Sensei was appointed to oversee this club. Unfortunately, Imaizumi Sensei's name has been "cleansed" since he is no longer with Aikikai. I could make a direct comment on that, but it speaks for itself. Luckily, the original members of this club (those that are still alive) still communicate with one another. When we threw a 50th year of Aikido celebration for Imaizumi Sensei, I sent a letter to Tada Sensei to see if he would privately send a letter of acknowledgement to my teacher. Sadly, nothing but radio silence.

Those who try to re-write history fail in the internet age and only serve to take away from their own legitimacy through such acts.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:04 AM   #29
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Mike Collins wrote: View Post
In my opinion, the concept of no competition in Aikido is "cute". I think Osensei set up Aikido as a non -competitive art just because he understood that he couldn't possibly eliminate competition between training partners, so he wanted to limit it as much as possible.
I agree, Mike, that the concept of no-competition is "cute." In some ways, aikido is an extremely competitive environment. By removing pugilism as a means of determining the overall skill and level of a practitioner, aikido actually set up something far more competitive. I'm not determining that there has to be a negative factor in all that, but zooming out a bit and examining aikido in that light, we can see that is it a world chock-full of competition.

By eschewing matches, aikido propelled the competition to the levels of politics, business, rank and file, etc.. This can be seen as early as the rift between Tohei and Aikikai. It can be seen in the establishment of territories. It can be seen in the promotion of rank. It can be seen in favoritism.

I think, in terms of growth, there are positive aspects to this kind of design. In nature, we can see trees and shrubs that are quick-growing and fast-spreading. In organizations and schools, early splits can ultimately be quite healthy in terms of proliferating the central memes that lie within the core.

One of the principle memes spread through aikido is non-resistance. It's one thing to roll it around as an intellectual concept, and quite another to embody it and live from a state that is not "of" it, but "from" it. The internalizing of not resisting resistance is exactly what would have Tohei move around the corner from Hombu, hang up his own picture, and start his own school (branch) of aikido.

And similar growth movements can be seen occurring not only with direct students of Ueshiba, but with students of his students. I'm sure there are some who've read through some of my recent posts who might find me rebellious and even out of line at times. In one aspect, that's entirely accurate. In another, I find myself prompted by an inner drive to fullfil my small contribution to the growth of aikido and aiki arts.

There is obviously a large area of aikido that truly is non-competitive, because the environment itself allows for so many individual interpretations of the core principles.

But I think it is an important aspect that long-practicing aikidoka, as well as those being newly introduced, understand the highly-competitive and dynamic nature of the aikido arena. And, again, through non-resistance, embrace the concept as essential to its overall growth and the self discovery of its practitioners.

Dan Richards - Aiki Research

"Budo must always reflect its surroundings. If it isn't newer and stronger, it isn't valid." - Shoji Nishio
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #30
Dan Rubin
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Notice that the article says that Tomiki was enthusiastic about the change....
As I noted, I posted only an excerpt from the article, the part that discussed Waseda University. In the rest of the article, Tanaka goes into great detail about the importance that Tomiki placed on competition, at one point stating that "Professor Tomiki insisted on the needs of competitions...."

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=625
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Old 06-15-2013, 07:19 PM   #31
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

So... Chris....

After reading all the above, and enjoying it all, I have to say, I am sort of confused at the end.

Was what I heard/read those years ago correct, or not? Or, is it still muddy?

I only think it's important to historians, but still. It's good to know history.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:03 AM   #32
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Peter:

Those who try to re-write history fail in the internet age and only serve to take away from their own legitimacy through such acts.....

Marc Abrams
Marc

That is so very true.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-stories.blogspot.co.uk/
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:58 AM   #33
JP3
 
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Peter, the "historians" thing was not a swipe at you, though I would consider your field of comparative mythology to be within. It was merely a comment that most folks don't really know, nor do they want to know, not really and in depth, the true and accurate history of what they practice. Some just don't care, some wish to drive an agenda.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:54 PM   #34
patrick de block
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Hello,

I always get bored with this discussions, since years. And, to make matters clear, I'm a Tomiki Aikido practitioner, in case you want to dismiss me. And that's fine with me.

What strikes me in these discussions is how competiton is always narrowly defined as a sports event with certain rules which are overseen by judges.

'Competition in biology, ecology, and sociology, is a contest between organisms, animals, individuals, groups, etc., for territory, a niche, or a location of resources, for resources and goods, for prestige, recognition, awards, mates, or group or social status, for leadership; it is the opposite of cooperation.[1][2] It arises whenever at least two parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared or which is desired individually but not in sharing and cooperation. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which co-exist in the same environment.[3] For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, mates, and other biological resources. Humans compete usually for food and mates, though when these needs are met deep rivalries often arise over the pursuit of wealth, prestige, and fame. Competition is also a major tenet in market economy and business is often associated with competition as most companies are in competition with at least one other firm over the same group of customers, and also competition inside a company is usually stimulated for meeting and reaching higher quality of services or products that the company produce or develop.'

This quote is from Wikipedia, so here I go, a non-exhaustive list of competition in aikido

- I have trained for ...years in Japan
- I have trained with ... (usually there follows an explanation why that teacher is the best)
- I have been ... times to Japan
- I have caried the bags of ... so many times on international events that I lost the count
- I have folded the hakama of ... countless times.
- I am a ... dan given to me by ... (...)
- I am your sempai
- Ask a simple question and you are told that you will understand when you are a senior ...
- ...

Some thoughts:

War is a competition, and I thought that aikido was advertised as a martial art.

In Tomiki Aikido you have shiai but you also have a three step program of kakari geiko, hiki tate geiko and randori to develop skill.

Young men (mostly) and the occasional women (more so) are competive, usually they grow older and become ... Anything wrong with being young and irresponsable, that's being young.

Ueshiba is famous for his displays of strength or power and he kept doing this into advanced age. (He never grew up?) Any problem with people becoming fascinated by this displays?

You can say that in competition usually people muscle their way through the technique, and that's what you are not suppossed to learn. But then, that is what 90 % or 95% of the aikido-people are doing, only it doesn't look that way since Uke's are very coöperative.

And in case you want to know, I've lost all my competitions and I am still doing aikido.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:50 AM   #35
Aikeway
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

My understanding is that Tomiki's 17 basic techniques were taken from judo to form his style of aikido. Tomiki wanted to preserve techniques that utilize a strike to create kuzushi such as shomen ate, aigamae ate,gyaku gamae ate, gedan ate, ushiro ate and also techniques which were performed at a greater distance than normal randori judo techniques. If this is correct, then what is so intrinsically different about these techniques to other judo techniques? Some of those techniques are still part of judo, such as waki-gatame. If it is necessary to have a competitive environment (either shiai or hard randori) to develop effective skills at judo techniques, how can this not be the same for aikido techniques which were once part of judo?
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:29 AM   #36
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Tomiki's 17 basic techniques were taken from judo to form his style of aikido.
Not sure where you get the idea that these techniques come from Judo. In the broader sense there are no techniques in Aikido that are not found somewhere else in the realm of jujutsu but what Tomiki did do is bring back some of those techniques into Judo via the Goshin no Kata. Those were clearly derived from Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:07 AM   #37
ewolput
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Tomiki's 17 basic techniques were taken from judo to form his style of aikido. Tomiki wanted to preserve techniques that utilize a strike to create kuzushi such as shomen ate, aigamae ate,gyaku gamae ate, gedan ate, ushiro ate and also techniques which were performed at a greater distance than normal randori judo techniques. If this is correct, then what is so intrinsically different about these techniques to other judo techniques? Some of those techniques are still part of judo, such as waki-gatame. If it is necessary to have a competitive environment (either shiai or hard randori) to develop effective skills at judo techniques, how can this not be the same for aikido techniques which were once part of judo?
Most of the "basic" kata techniques are aikido techniques explained from the "judo" point of view. Tomiki sensei was heavily inspired by the doctrines of Jigoro Kano. Tomiki sensei also used Kendo principles in formulating his idea of randori/shiai. Especially the idea of "the ki of kendo".

Just my thoughts,
Eddy
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:56 AM   #38
CorkyQ
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Cross-posted to http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=&threadid=998

Whether you prefer to put your aikido to the test with other practitioners of aikido, or want to compete with other martial artists is individual choice, but as to whether Osensei really did feel a certain way about competition seems pretty clear, as well as his reasoning, in the book Aikido (Kisshomaru Ueshiba, 1958, under the direction of Morihei Ueshiba), translated by Kaz Tanahashi quotes Osensei in the back of the book under the chapter heading "Memoirs of the Master":

We ceaselessly pray that fights should not occur. For this reason we strictly prohibit matches in Aikido. (my bold)

That seems pretty clear, says he doesn't want "matches in Aikido" which I would call competition, and gives a reason, but if you want to go straight to the horse's mouth, contact Tanahashi Sensei in Berkeley. I'm sure he would, as the scholar he is, be able to tell you exactly what wording Osensei used in Japanese.

Also among the memoirs, same book, Then how can you straighten your warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make God's heart yours. It is a Great Love. Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe. "There is no discord in love. There is no enemy in love." A mind of discord, thinking of the existence of an enemy is no more consistent with the will of God.

Those who do not agree with this cannot be in harmony with the universe. Their budo is that of destruction. It is not constructive budo.

Therefore, to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true budo. True budo knows no defeat. "Never defeated" means "never fighting."


Second reason, from my interpretation. I doubt that he means you shouldn't compete because you might lose. My take is, in context with everything else he says in his memoir, is that in an aikido interaction should never end with anyone defeated.

Other than that I take from it that M. Ueshiba felt those interested in competing are not interested in what he called "true budo." Think about it. What does competition do besides make winners and losers out of practitioners? Does winning a bout make the world one family? Does winning do anything except inflate egos?

In the same memoirs: A mind to serve for the peace of all human beings in the world is needed in Aikido, and not the mind of one who wishes to be strong and fell an opponent." So, if you trust the creator of the art you study.... why would you compete? I'm not asking you - Just offering a question to ask yourself...
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:38 AM   #39
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Just a fun video - but think about this - gentlemen from the west curious about aikido have brought their camera crew on a "Rendezvous with Adventure!" They see this little old man doing some amazing things with his students. Later when the old man seems to be gone, they ask one of his senior students how his martial art stands up to a little "rough and tumble" and the student (maybe at the top of your lineage?) takes the bait, wanting to show himself perhaps as well as these big Americans, how effective Aikido is at winning the "rough and tumble" so he agrees to the match (competition)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FQkyB6B-w (advance to 2:08)

beautiful aikido, no? lol - all in the name of proving...
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:17 AM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Just a fun video - but think about this - gentlemen from the west curious about aikido have brought their camera crew on a "Rendezvous with Adventure!" They see this little old man doing some amazing things with his students. Later when the old man seems to be gone, they ask one of his senior students how his martial art stands up to a little "rough and tumble" and the student (maybe at the top of your lineage?) takes the bait, wanting to show himself perhaps as well as these big Americans, how effective Aikido is at winning the "rough and tumble" so he agrees to the match (competition)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FQkyB6B-w (advance to 2:08)

beautiful aikido, no? lol - all in the name of proving...
I'm not sure what your point is here...is it "your Aikido will suck if you try to compete"?

If that's the case, then wouldn't it be better to address the "Aikido will suck" part rather than just avoiding situations in which your Aikido may suck?

Morihei Ueshiba, for example, was known to engage in the same kind of "matches", but maybe he did a little better...

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-27-2013, 12:04 PM   #41
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what your point is here...is it "your Aikido will suck if you try to compete"?

If that's the case, then wouldn't it be better to address the "Aikido will suck" part rather than just avoiding situations in which your Aikido may suck?

Morihei Ueshiba, for example, was known to engage in the same kind of "matches", but maybe he did a little better...

Best,

Chris
Hey Chris, my point was that perhaps why the Founder "strictly" prohibited competition was that every moment wondering whether one's aikido will work (work, as in, make you victorious in an engagement) is a moment away from where Osensei saw true budo to be. Why would someone agree to a contest with someone, except to see whether one will win or lose? If Osensei really meant aikido is not about winning or losing, then it would stand to reason that winning or losing (competition) is not aikido. At least by the Founder's definition.

Maybe competition using some of the mechanics of aikido is something else...
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:10 PM   #42
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
Hey Chris, my point was that perhaps why the Founder "strictly" prohibited competition was that every moment wondering whether one's aikido will work (work, as in, make you victorious in an engagement) is a moment away from where Osensei saw true budo to be. Why would someone agree to a contest with someone, except to see whether one will win or lose? If Osensei really meant aikido is not about winning or losing, then it would stand to reason that winning or losing (competition) is not aikido. At least by the Founder's definition.

Maybe competition using some of the mechanics of aikido is something else...
I mentioned this on another thread, but the match in the film that you mentioned was in fact sanctioned by Morihei Ueshiba himself - which runs into some problems with a "strict prohibition".

We also know that Morihei Ueshiba participated in a number of similar encounters himself, which also runs into a problems with a "strict prohibition".

Language in Japanese is rarely as black and white in meaning as it is in English - things almost always change on a case by case basis, so I think that it would be tricky to read too much into the quote that you cited.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-27-2013, 12:49 PM   #43
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I mentioned this on another thread, but the match in the film that you mentioned was in fact sanctioned by Morihei Ueshiba himself - which runs into some problems with a "strict prohibition".
Just thinking out loud: The film was made in 1958, maybe O Sensei choose to prohibit matches after this one because the amazing performance displayed by Tohei Sensei.

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Old 06-27-2013, 12:57 PM   #44
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Just thinking out loud: The film was made in 1958, maybe O Sensei choose to prohibit matches after this one because the amazing performance displayed by Tohei Sensei.
ha ha ha... maybe - that's the year of the publication of the book "Aikido" too - lol
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:18 PM   #45
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
ha ha ha... maybe - that's the year of the publication of the book "Aikido" too - lol
I think this book is from 1962.

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Old 06-27-2013, 01:22 PM   #46
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I mentioned this on another thread, but the match in the film that you mentioned was in fact sanctioned by Morihei Ueshiba himself - which runs into some problems with a "strict prohibition".

We also know that Morihei Ueshiba participated in a number of similar encounters himself, which also runs into a problems with a "strict prohibition".

Language in Japanese is rarely as black and white in meaning as it is in English - things almost always change on a case by case basis, so I think that it would be tricky to read too much into the quote that you cited.

Best,

Chris
yes, true, Chris but one (at least) of the very translators is still us, is a great scholar (translator of many languages), artist, zen master and more. I have spent a little time with him and interviewed him extensively and he stands by the translation as you and I would interpret it in normal English, that is "strict" (as in no wiggle room) and "prohibit" (as in not allowing)

So, I don't think you have to take my word for it - I think he would answer an inquiry directly... but do you think the translators dubiously translated the founder's words and translated them back to the founder illicitly for his approval in order to advance their own contrary agenda? (the contents were under M. Ueshiba's direction) or that the founder really meant "sort of prohibited under certain conditions?" or completely opposite- "strictly encouraged?" how many ways of saying that competition is okay in aikido can be mistranslated into "strictly prohibited?" I have no idea - my extemely limited knowledge of Japanese only barely helped me get around there.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:29 PM   #47
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think this book is from 1962.
the book I hold says Translated from AIKIDO, 1958 & AIKIDO GIHO 1962 - it is a translation of both combined so the "strictly prohibited" matches part might well have been from the 1962 part - but maybe like you said it all stemmed from that televised struggle... lol...
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:42 PM   #48
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

Corky,

Could you explain why translations of O Sensei regarding this issue doesn't match with the training methodology as described by a direct student of the founder in

http://books.google.es/books?id=SdYD...hizuki&f=false ?

see pages 34-35

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Old 06-27-2013, 02:59 PM   #49
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
yes, true, Chris but one (at least) of the very translators is still us, is a great scholar (translator of many languages), artist, zen master and more. I have spent a little time with him and interviewed him extensively and he stands by the translation as you and I would interpret it in normal English, that is "strict" (as in no wiggle room) and "prohibit" (as in not allowing)

So, I don't think you have to take my word for it - I think he would answer an inquiry directly... but do you think the translators dubiously translated the founder's words and translated them back to the founder illicitly for his approval in order to advance their own contrary agenda? (the contents were under M. Ueshiba's direction) or that the founder really meant "sort of prohibited under certain conditions?" or completely opposite- "strictly encouraged?" how many ways of saying that competition is okay in aikido can be mistranslated into "strictly prohibited?" I have no idea - my extemely limited knowledge of Japanese only barely helped me get around there.
I'm not questioning the translation - I've read the original, in Japanese. What I'm saying is that Morihei Ueshiba's own actions don't support that statement as a black and white prohibition against competition in all cases.

As I said, it's quite common in Japanese for people to make "absolute" statements and then perform actions that are seemingly in complete variance with those statements without batting an eye. For those reasons, it's rather tricky to support an argument of an absolute prohibition by decree, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-27-2013, 04:19 PM   #50
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Re: No Competition in Aikido(excluding Tomiki)

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
For those reasons, it's rather tricky to support an argument of an absolute prohibition by decree, IMO.

Best,

Chris
That's true Chris. One time when I was a kid, two young Catholic friends of mine were over during lent when my mom offered us all lollipops. We all took them, but I could see some hesitation in the older brother. Halfway through eating it, he said, "This is a lollipop, not really candy, right?" because he had given "candy" up for lent. By some interpretations and rationalizations his lollipop was not candy...

What did the Japanese that you read mean to you? "Strict prohibition" or something else less strict or prohibitive?

And if Osensei was a hypocrite, which did you think he thought would do the best for you as an aikidoist and for aikido as an practice, based on his body of writings and teachings? If you think he was just talking out of his a$$ when he said competition in aikido is "strictly prohibited" - why do you really care whether he said it or meant it or whatever? It just mean's he was full of it... Go and test your aikido skill against anyone who will meet your challenge. If it gives you what you are looking for, what does it matter to anyone else, including Osensei? You don't owe him anything do you?

Last edited by akiy : 06-28-2013 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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