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Old 05-07-2013, 02:30 PM   #126
graham christian
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

As you can imagine I have no problem telling people Aikido I do is a spiritual discipline. I never have people saying they don't know what I mean so in my experience they know exactly what I mean and many even say they are not ready for that.

So in my experience it communicates fine and thus transmits the right reality for what I do and those who want it are not disappointed.

So me saying that Aikido itself is a spiritual practice is one thing and me saying to another who asks personally I also say that same thing, but that's me. What anyone else should do as far as I see it when talking to someone enquiring is just be honest and tell them what it is to you.

That doesn't equal others are wrong, it just equals being honest and respecting that others are being honest from their views too. Thus there should be no argument.

Now I'm outa here, back to the spiritual thread

Peace.G.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:56 PM   #127
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If everyone used the word the way you suggest, the word would cease to mean anything at all.
That's the whole point. The word has no meaning unrelated to the context in which it's used. For example, saying Aikido is a martial art drops it into the same cookie jar containing all other martial arts; rendering that definition devoid of any meaningful specificity. On the other hand, if you try to provide enough specifics to differentiate Aikido from all the other martial arts in the cookie jar your definition of Aikido will approach book length; rendering that definition equally useless since to explain Aikido to someone without prior knowledge of the subject you'd have to read the whole book.

When you say the word apple it means one thing to you but may mean something different to me. Sure, we both agree that an apple is a fruit that grows on a tree. But what color is the apple you conjure up: red, green, yellow? Is it tart, sweet or sour? Is it crispy or soft and mushy? We can arrive at a common mental image of an apple by continued communication refining our mental pictures until they coincide.

Not everyone is going to use the word Aikido in the way I suggest. And that too is the point. If you want to talk to your friend who knows nothing about Aikido you're going to have to use more than the word in order to have a meaningful conversation.

Ron

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Old 05-07-2013, 06:03 PM   #128
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
That's the whole point. The word has no meaning unrelated to the context in which it's used. For example, saying Aikido is a martial art drops it into the same cookie jar containing all other martial arts; rendering that definition devoid of any meaningful specificity.
I'm not following you. How does defining aikido as a martial art make it less specific?

Quote:
On the other hand, if you try to provide enough specifics to differentiate Aikido from all the other martial arts in the cookie jar your definition of Aikido will approach book length; rendering that definition equally useless since to explain Aikido to someone without prior knowledge of the subject you'd have to read the whole book.
I disagree. If I had to put my definition of aikido into words, it would be something like this: "The martial art, founded by Morihei Ueshiba, that expresses the principle of aiki through a jujutsu-based technical curriculum derived primarily from Sokaku Takeda's Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu." I'd say that differentiates it quite nicely from other martial arts, and could be explained to the martial arts layman according to the aforementioned technical curriculum.

Quote:
When you say the word apple it means one thing to you but may mean something different to me. Sure, we both agree that an apple is a fruit that grows on a tree. But what color is the apple you conjure up: red, green, yellow? Is it tart, sweet or sour? Is it crispy or soft and mushy? We can arrive at a common mental image of an apple by continued communication refining our mental pictures until they coincide.
An apple is defined biologically, not experientially. Something either is or is not biologically an apple regardless of how many people find that it fits their experience-based descriptions of an apple. This is my problem with your whole point: you seem to think that description and definition are the same thing.

Quote:
Not everyone is going to use the word Aikido in the way I suggest. And that too is the point. If you want to talk to your friend who knows nothing about Aikido you're going to have to use more than the word in order to have a meaningful conversation.
Of course I am. That would be the case with any word the listener hasn't heard before.

But if someone asks you what aikido is and you answer that it is a formless study of the spirit, what have you communicated? They know as little about what you do as they did before they asked. You have communicated nothing, and therefore have effectively said nothing.

On the other hand, if they ask me what aikido is, I'll tell them that it's a Japanese martial art that explores principles of physics and spirituality primarily through grappling and throwing techniques. That person will at least have a general idea of what I do.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-07-2013 at 06:09 PM.

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Old 05-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #129
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Let me draw another analogy.

Falling is an activity that serves as an expression of gravity. If we decide one day to define falling according to gravity rather than to the specific activity, then falling becomes a very general word which can mean many different things. As such, falling no longer specificies the thing we do when nothing is holding us up. That activity, therefore needs a new name.

Aikido is an activity that serves as an expression of certain principles. If we decide to define aikido according to the principles rather than to the specific activity, the word aikido becomes a very general word which can mean many different things. As such, aikido no longer specifically names the martial we practice in the dojo. That activity, therefore needs a new name.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-07-2013 at 07:07 PM.

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Old 05-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #130
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
If I had to put my definition of aikido into words, it would be something like this: "The martial art, founded by Morihei Ueshiba, that expresses the principle of aiki through a jujutsu-based technical curriculum derived primarily from Sokaku Takeda's Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu."
and

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
On the other hand, if they ask me what aikido is, I'll tell them that it's a Japanese martial art that explores principles of physics and spirituality primarily through grappling and throwing techniques.
Without a whole lot of effort you yourself have managed to come up with two definitions of Aikido and you are just one of a couple of million people who study.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
But if someone asks you what aikido is and you answer that it is a formless study of the spirit, what have you communicated?
Well, that's Ueshiba's rather terse definition. I'm sure that if you dig into his writings in any great detail you'll find that idea covered more deeply.

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
This is my problem with your whole point: you seem to think that description and definition are the same thing.
A few synonyms for define: describe, outline, explain, state, term, delineate, delimit.
And definition: description, meaning, classification, explanation, characterization, demarcation, delineation.

Ron

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Old 05-07-2013, 09:36 PM   #131
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
and

Without a whole lot of effort you yourself have managed to come up with two definitions of Aikido and you are just one of a couple of million people who study.
On the contrary, those are not two different definitions. They are one definition stated twice. The second time the definition is re-worded for the benefit of someone who has no martial arts background. But they both refer to exactly the same activity. Your definition, stated twice, could refer to two entirely different things, even if you worded it exactly the same way, which is why your definition doesn't work.
Quote:
Well, that's Ueshiba's rather terse definition. I'm sure that if you dig into his writings in any great detail you'll find that idea covered more deeply.
I am aware that it was Ueshiba's definition. That doesn't mean that it is a definition that is useful in any practical way.
Quote:
A few synonyms for define: describe, outline, explain, state, term, delineate, delimit.
And definition: description, meaning, classification, explanation, characterization, demarcation, delineation.
Great, but they're still not the same thing.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-07-2013 at 09:43 PM.

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Old 05-08-2013, 06:34 AM   #132
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Great, but they're still not the same thing.
You can discuss that with Merriam-Webster 'cause:

"syn·o·nym noun \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\

Definition of SYNONYM

1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses"

Time for me to go.

Ron

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Old 05-08-2013, 08:56 AM   #133
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

A definition and a description are not the same thing, Ron. I wish there were a nice way to say this, but you're just wrong. Something that is defined one way can be described many ways.

Let's use your apple example. An apple is the fruit of the Malus domestica, or apple tree. Different people can describe an apple different ways (red, green, tart, sweet, crispy, etc.) according to how they experience it, but none of those descriptions change--or indeed impact in any way--the definition of apple. No matter what the description, the definition remains the same: an apple, by definition, is the fruit of the Malus domestica tree.

Your argument is that something which can be described many ways cannot have a single definition, because every description serves as a new definition, and that is demonstrably false.

Now back to OP. Say we define aikido as a martial art originating with Morihei Ueshiba, whose technical curriculum is derived primarily from Sokaku Takeda's Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu and which is intended to explore and express the physical and spiritual principle of aiki. By giving aikido such a definition, we create word that (a) means something specific in conversation, (b) functions as a name for our particular martial art, (c) acknowledges that our art is about something bigger and more important than a particular set of techniques, and (d) makes no judgement about which individual style is the "true" art. It does everything we need it to do, and no one else in this thread has provided a definition that accomplishes that (except maybe Cliff and Andy, whose definitions are very similar to mine). What such a definition does not do is allow us to say that we see aikido "all over the place in MMA". It would be far more correct and far less obfuscatory to say that we see the principles of aikido or the lessons of aikido "all over the place in MMA".

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:01 AM   #134
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Let me draw another analogy.

Falling is an activity that serves as an expression of gravity. If we decide one day to define falling according to gravity rather than to the specific activity, then falling becomes a very general word which can mean many different things. As such, falling no longer specificies the thing we do when nothing is holding us up. That activity, therefore needs a new name.
For example, I can fall in love or fall out of line. In both actions, the verb fall is not an expression of gravity, but rather an expression of transition from one state to another. So specifically, are you claiming that the commonly accepted phrase "falling in love" should not be used because the verb "falling" [incorrectly] does not act as an expression of gravity? And in a case where a conflict of defintion has displaced a word, that word should be redefined?

You have spent a lot of effort in trying to define aikido. I don't think you are necessarily saying anything wrong, but what several posters have been trying to say is that in defining aikido, you have to include the common context and usage in your clausal statement. The outcome of all the number of posts you have made has resulted in:
Quote:
What such a definition does not do is allow us to say that we see aikido "all over the place in MMA". It would be far more correct and far less obfuscatory to say that we see the principles of aikido or the lessons of aikido "all over the place in MMA".
One word- "principles" of aikido. Or is it "lessons" of aikido. A lesson and a principle are not the same thing.

I am not sure getting so over-defined is contributory to a discussion about whether MMA fighters may apply [principes of] aikido in their fights. I think most of us here accepted the implication that we are not literally talking about aikido waza. I also think most of us here accepted the loose claim of possession that aikido is inclusive of aiki. I also think that most of us here are not claiming aiki is exclusive to aikido.

What I am claiming is that yes, you can see aiki in fights.

Last edited by jonreading : 05-08-2013 at 11:13 AM.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:24 PM   #135
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
For example, I can fall in love or fall out of line. In both actions, the verb fall is not an expression of gravity, but rather an expression of transition from one state to another. So specifically, are you claiming that the commonly accepted phrase "falling in love" should not be used because the verb "falling" [incorrectly] does not act as an expression of gravity? And in a case where a conflict of defintion has displaced a word, that word should be redefined?
You're talking about metaphor; I addressed this earlier in the thread. "Falling in love" is a fanciful figure of speech that compares an emotional feeling to literal falling. It works precisely because the person who hears it knows that it does not literally refer to falling.

What is happening here is not the same thing. When OP says he sees aikido in MMA, he is not being fanciful. He means it literally, or else he is communicating badly. Either way, he is misusing the word.
Quote:
One word- "principles" of aikido. Or is it "lessons" of aikido. A lesson and a principle are not the same thing.
That is correct. I am not saying they are the same thing. It is up to OP to decide what he means; I am presenting possibilities of what he might mean.
Quote:
I am not sure getting so over-defined is contributory to a discussion about whether MMA fighters may apply [principes of] aikido in their fights.
Principles of aikido and aikido itself are not the same thing. If OP meant principles of aikido, he should have said "principles of aikido".
Quote:
I think most of us here accepted the implication that we are not literally talking about aikido waza.
Then we should be using a word other than aikido.
Quote:
I also think most of us here accepted the loose claim of possession that aikido is inclusive of aiki.
Can you rephrase this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Quote:
I also think that most of us here are not claiming aiki is exclusive to aikido.
To refer to all things aiki by the name aikido is to make that claim.
Quote:
What I am claiming is that yes, you can see aiki in fights.
And I do not dispute that. But OP did not say aiki; he said aikido. My point is--and has been from the beginning--that OP is misusing the word aikido, not that aiki cannot be found in MMA fights.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:42 PM   #136
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

I went to the driving range today. I most certainly employed several key aiki principles while practicing. These same principles are directly responsible for my ability to make consistent, good contact with the ball. Something I was not previously able to do. If aiki-do is an art of principles and I was intently focused on maintaining some of those principles, was I not doing aiki-do? Was I not at least doing as much aiki-do as someone who is doing techniques that are devoid of most of those principles?
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:59 PM   #137
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I went to the driving range today. I most certainly employed several key aiki principles while practicing. These same principles are directly responsible for my ability to make consistent, good contact with the ball. Something I was not previously able to do. If aiki-do is an art of principles and I was intently focused on maintaining some of those principles, was I not doing aiki-do? Was I not at least doing as much aiki-do as someone who is doing techniques that are devoid of most of those principles?
No, you were not doing aikido. You were doing golf. You might have been employing some of the principles of aikido, but you were not doing aikido.

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Old 05-08-2013, 06:04 PM   #138
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
No, you were not doing aikido. You were doing golf. You might have been employing some of the principles of aikido, but you were not doing aikido.
Some of us have been doing Aikido for decades.

Have you ever considered that you don't even know what you don't know?

Aikido touches every thing I do. You can say it doesn't but it will still be part of every single thing I do.

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Old 05-08-2013, 08:20 PM   #139
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Some of us have been doing Aikido for decades.

Have you ever considered that you don't even know what you don't know?

Aikido touches every thing I do. You can say it doesn't but it will still be part of every single thing I do.
I agree wholeheartedly. Aikido ideally does touch everything we do. But that doesn't mean that everything we do can be called aikido.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-08-2013 at 08:31 PM.

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Old 05-09-2013, 12:02 AM   #140
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
No, you were not doing aikido. You were doing golf. You might have been employing some of the principles of aikido, but you were not doing aikido.
Knowing a couple golfers, I'm not sure going to the driving range is doing golf. You might be employing some of the same behaviors of golf, but that is not doing golf.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:23 AM   #141
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
No, you were not doing aikido. You were doing golf. You might have been employing some of the principles of aikido, but you were not doing aikido.
but if I go to the dojo, put on a gi and do techniques that express none of the principles of aiki, I am doing aikido?
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:46 AM   #142
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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but if I go to the dojo, put on a gi and do techniques that express none of the principles of aiki, I am doing aikido?
I would say that you are doing aikido badly.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:16 AM   #143
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
but if I go to the dojo, put on a gi and do techniques that express none of the principles of aiki, I am doing aikido?
Are you talking about someone trying to express the principles of aiki in their technique but failing?

I find I am with Matt on this...to satisfy me that a martial art is Aikido, I need to see people get onto the mat in gi and hakama, face a picture of the old man, clap twice, etc. And train predominantly on throws and joint locks etc. For the ultimate goal of turning conflict into harmony.

In Japanese, the term "aikido" can be used more loosely and descriptively based on context but in English we tend to think of words like aikido, kendo, judo, etc to be definitive terms that relate to a particular martial art.

If your practice extends to other areas of your life, that is great, but it is a more personal thing whether you think of it as aikido. Likewise if you cross-train in another art that enriches your understanding of the principles of Aikido.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:40 AM   #144
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

was going to stay out of this but the dark side is too strong and it pulled me in.

most folks don't care about what you know or your explanation of aikido or martial arts, until you shown them that you care about them and their thoughts and activities. so my conversation with folks depend on who they are and what they know. i would categorize my approach depending on the audience. sort of adapt to the situation instead of forcing the situation to fit my needs. isn't that one of the aikido principles? so my categorization,

Folks who do activities but know nothing about martial arts
{
- talk to them about their activities
- ask questions about their activities
- shown interest in their activities
- if they ask what you do, just mention that you do martial arts. don't even mention the name aikido. and steer the conversation back to their activities or discuss other subjects, any other subjects other than martial arts: for example, why pole dancing is a fitness craze?
}

Folks who practice some sort of martial arts that's not aikido
{
- same treatment as the folks who don't and know nothing about martial arts
- but talk about their martial arts practice instead
- asking questions about their practice, but stay away from saying things like "<insert name martial arts> sucks!" or "we do it this way in aikido" or "aikido does it better". because they might smile and be all polite, but thinking "who the f**k care of what you think". or they just knock your light out. either case, it's bad manner at party.
- try to keep the conversation away from aikido
- again care about what they do
}

Folks who really curious about aikido
{
- could be the same folks above where they kept asking about aikido
- remember this quote "tell me and i forget. show me and i remember. involve me and i understand"
- you ask them if they have comfortable exercise clothes other the one they use for pole dancing. and whether they available during one of the practice time of your dojo. ask them to come and "involve" them so understanding can show up and party.
}

Folks who already practices aikido
{
- no explanation or definition is necessary or in some case, could never satisfy with any explanation or definition
- actually, one should stay away from other aikido folks lest you create high gravitational field like black holes. and we all know what black hole does, which is opposite of asshole.
}

Folks who practices MMA
{
- pick fight with them just for fun and entertainment. don't forget to have your buddy video it and post on youtube for fun and entertainment. look for quick exit before challenge them.
- ask them how do they keep from getting an erection when pulling guards or in mount position? and don't forget to look for quick exit before asking such question.
- ask them if they train with steven seagal. if they say "no", then tell them that they don't know MMA at all. don't forget to look for quick exit before asking such question.
}

personally, i think we should ditch the name aikido and go with "phido", the way of phi. and for easy 10 payments of $9.99 (gazillion euros for you folks over there somewhere) i will give the concise definition of phido.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:41 AM   #145
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I would say that you are doing aikido badly.
Then what are the principles of aiki that separate doing aikido well and doing it badly? What are you looking for? How would you tell if someone was doing strong, effective technique, but doing it without any of those principles? Could you tell?

Last edited by chillzATL : 05-09-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:56 AM   #146
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
How would you tell if someone was doing strong, effective technique, but doing it without any of those principles? Could you tell?
when they use the Schwartz. everyone knows that!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:33 AM   #147
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Then what are the principles of aiki that separate doing aikido well and doing it badly? What are you looking for? How would you tell if someone was doing strong, effective technique, but doing it without any of those principles? Could you tell?
That's a completely separate issue, one I'm not sure I'm qualified to get into.

What I am proposing is that we need to define the word aikido in such a way that it is clear which activities are and are not aikido. MMA is not aikido. Golf is not aikido. Dancing is not aikido. Having a conversation is not aikido. These are all activities which can be informed by our practice of aikido and which can express the principles we find in aikido, but they are not Ueshiba's Daito-based martial art, therefore it is incorrect to call them by the name aikido.

What is good and bad aikido, which aikido best expresses the principles of aikido, I'll let the shihans argue about that.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:41 AM   #148
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I find I am with Matt on this...to satisfy me that a martial art is Aikido, I need to see people get onto the mat in gi and hakama, face a picture of the old man, clap twice, etc. And train predominantly on throws and joint locks etc. For the ultimate goal of turning conflict into harmony.

In Japanese, the term "aikido" can be used more loosely and descriptively based on context but in English we tend to think of words like aikido, kendo, judo, etc to be definitive terms that relate to a particular martial art.
The bold bit is the crux of the current issue here isn't it; whether or not it's ok to use the word "aikido" descriptively to indicate similarity or whether it ought remain a discrete (and per my limited reading of this conversation, a more or less incomplete) definition? If it's ok to do so in Japanese, why not English? Simply because of localized conventions? What about when some of those Japanese conventions find themselves transplanted in an English-speaking area? Might there not be some acceptible cross-over?
After rereading the OP I think it's clear Dan's not saying that literally "the" complete practice of Aikido (whatever that might be) is everywhere in MMA. He's saying some essential aspects of Aikido are used by many high level MMA players and insofar as this is true, "Aikido" can be seen in MMA. It seems clear to me the OP is using Aikido as a descriptive term to relate similar aspects of different training systems and practices.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-09-2013 at 10:44 AM.

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Old 05-09-2013, 12:33 PM   #149
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The bold bit is the crux of the current issue here isn't it; whether or not it's ok to use the word "aikido" descriptively to indicate similarity or whether it ought remain a discrete (and per my limited reading of this conversation, a more or less incomplete) definition? If it's ok to do so in Japanese, why not English? Simply because of localized conventions? What about when some of those Japanese conventions find themselves transplanted in an English-speaking area? Might there not be some acceptible cross-over?
After rereading the OP I think it's clear Dan's not saying that literally "the" complete practice of Aikido (whatever that might be) is everywhere in MMA. He's saying some essential aspects of Aikido are used by many high level MMA players and insofar as this is true, "Aikido" can be seen in MMA. It seems clear to me the OP is using Aikido as a descriptive term to relate similar aspects of different training systems and practices.
But that's not how language works. Ron and I have been using an "apple" analogy, so I'll stick with it.

I can say something is an apple and literally mean it--that is, that it is the fruit of a Malus domestica tree; I can say that something is an apple and mean it metaphorically, as in "the Big Apple", or "the apple of my eye"--in which case the figurative comparison works precisely because the person listening knows what I am talking about is not actually an apple; but I cannot say that a strawberry bush is full of apples and mean that it is full of red, curvy fruits with stems at the stop. That's not metaphor, it's just improper use of the word apple. It would be accurate to say that the strawberry bush is full of things that in many ways are like apples, but not to call them apples.

Likewise:
I can say something is aikido and literally mean it--that is, that it is Ueshiba's Daito-based martial art; I can say something is aikido and mean it metaphorically, as in the oft-used phrase "verbal aikido"--in which case the figurative comparison works precisely because the person listening knows that what I am talking about is not actually aikido; but I cannot say that an MMA match is full of aikido and mean that it is full of things that are in many ways like aikido. It is a misuse of the word.

I'll give OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is just making a semantic error, not the much more egregious error others are making in this thread of calling anything aikido in which they find the principles of aikido. But it's still a semantic error that needs to be corrected, since the word in question is aikido itself.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-09-2013 at 12:36 PM.

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Old 05-09-2013, 12:55 PM   #150
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Matthew Story wrote: View Post

I'll give OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is just making a semantic error, not the much more egregious error others are making in this thread of calling anything aikido in which they find the principles of aikido. But it's still a semantic error that needs to be corrected, since the word in question is aikido itself.
It's a semantic error only according to your definition. According to other's definitions that may not be the case - in fact, according to other definitions calling what you do in the dojo with the funny clothes on may well be a semantic error.

And no, linguistically a word doesn't have to be that tightly defined to have meaning or to be usable (take "love" for example, which is enourmously vague and variable) - it just means that further qualifiers would be necessary to clarify what you're talking about. Thus, for example, Stan Pranin talks about "modern" Aikido.

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Chris

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