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Old 04-26-2013, 07:51 AM   #26
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

To add to the chorus...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Nikkyo should not hurt" is different than "pain is not the goal of nikkyo".
Ditto.

With nikyo my goal is generally a structural control. Like most things we do. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes I might even want it to hurt to emphasize a point (Peter R's inner sadist). It just depends on a larger context that is itself rather resistant to absolute and simplistic discussion on-line (and I don't mean that to sound dismissive, simply that it "ain't so simple"). Shrug.

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Old 04-26-2013, 09:14 AM   #27
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

I've never felt anyone in aikido who could move/control me with a nikyo without pain or the notion that pain was just around the corner. I've found plenty of people who were skilled in their application to the point that they could catch me right at the edge of pain compliance and move me and that can almost make you think that there's no pain, but that also skirts pretty close to the edge of over-compliance too. I have felt some people outside of aikido who could, in very low pressure testing situations, lock me up and move me without pain or really even locking me up and I have no doubt there are some people out there who could do that in higher resistance situations. I do agree that pain isn't the goal of nikyo, but I have my doubts about the efficacy of the mystical "pain free nikyo" in the majority of aikido these days. It skirts too close to over-compliance for my tastes.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:32 AM   #28
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases. I suppose this could be done accidentally or intentionally. A lot of beginners have nikyos that cause a fair amount of pain, but don't take your balance.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:22 AM   #29
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases. I suppose this could be done accidentally or intentionally. A lot of beginners have nikyos that cause a fair amount of pain, but don't take your balance.
The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.

In other words, an experience person manipulating your structure through the wrist such that you get the "right" feeling meaning you take the "proper" ukemi at that point. The question is whether you "really" had to go down due to the structural feel *or* if you simply feel *both* the structural manipulation ("correct" feeling) and you simultaneously realize the next feeling coming is going to be the pain. then eventually you know the structural feeling and react to that prior to actually having to move? Conditioned responses are by definition automatic and rather instantaneous and feel like they were not intentional.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 04-26-2013 at 10:26 AM.

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Old 04-26-2013, 10:27 AM   #30
Keith Larman
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
To add to the chorus...

Ditto.

With nikyo my goal is generally a structural control. Like most things we do. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes I might even want it to hurt to emphasize a point (Peter R's inner sadist). It just depends on a larger context that is itself rather resistant to absolute and simplistic discussion on-line (and I don't mean that to sound dismissive, simply that it "ain't so simple"). Shrug.
I should modify this a bit and say that the structural aspect is one that if it is fought against tends to result in pain, especially in those who don't know how to work against it.

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:07 AM   #31
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
My experiences with "strong nikyo at full speed" of "accomplished practioners" tell me that your last sentence seems to be true only in a certain paradigm of practice. Actually receiving a fast nikyo from Endo senseiwas one of the key moments that made me change my way of practice.
I'd like to experience that some day. The fastest, most powerful nikkyo moments that I have felt all felt like being hit by a bolt of lightning. When it was over, my wrist was fine, but it was pretty intense at the moment!

It sounds like Endo sensei does something quite different. I get to train with students of his from time to time -- I'll see if I can get a chance to feel it.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #32
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
The best nikyos I've felt induced collapse. There was no pain, just a switch flicking from off to on, and I went from stood up to not. Nikyo seems to present the body with a moment of peak pressure that convinces your body to try and get lower/underneath it. Pain isn't part of the equation, unless the duration increases and the pressure decreases.
This is my experience of nikajo in the Mugenjuku dojo here. There is non-painful pressure starting in your arm and all of a sudden your knee collapses. This is not in every nikajo applied here, but in some. It feels incredibly powerful because with pain, you always have the idea in the back of your head that if you could stand the pain, the technique wouldn't work. But this collapse seems to happen as a non-conscious reaction.

On the other hand...

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.
This may also be true. I'm new, so it's not a Pavlovian response, but once you see what you are supposed to do, it changes the equation of what happens during the technique. In a similar way, there are other techniques in which if uke doesn't cooperate, he may end up with a broken arm. Does that mean that the "real" aikido needs uke's compliance or that the "real" aikido results in a broken arm?

I don't know the answer to that. However, it is instructive that (1) in another post, there are several anecdotes relate nikyo with pain and (2) in this thread we have the report of someone receiving nikyo from Ueshiba with pain. Also, in Aikido Jinsei, Shioda Gozo relates Ueshiba refusing to perform in front of the imperial family by saying that "real" aikido always results in the death of the opponent.

Yet again on the other hand, contra Keith Larman, I have demonstrated nikajo to someone who doesn't do martial arts and the person went down instantaneously like an experienced training partner. This person had intense pain (not my intention--I wasn't even expecting the technique to work!), but their automatic response to the pain was to try to escape in exactly the kihon form for uke. So who knows.

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Old 04-27-2013, 11:37 AM   #33
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
This is my experience of nikajo in the Mugenjuku dojo here. There is non-painful pressure starting in your arm and all of a sudden your knee collapses. This is not in every nikajo applied here, but in some. It feels incredibly powerful because with pain, you always have the idea in the back of your head that if you could stand the pain, the technique wouldn't work. But this collapse seems to happen as a non-conscious reaction.
Yes. When nage is controlling uke's entire mechanical structure, instead of simply twisting a limb (which is simply pain compliance), nikkyo/nikkajo should be painless. You can choose to apply pain, but that is an additional action, and, IMO, completely unnecessary.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:01 PM   #34
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
It did seem to me that they went from the outside in with their locks - wrist, elbow, shoulder - in a chain; it seemed distinct from the concept of going for the whole body, or through the whole body, which is how aiki arts work in my limited experience.

The practitioner I was working with was most likely being nice to me as he let me take the option of going to the mat and tapping before he made it hurt.
There are around 10 waza in Hakkoryu's nidan-ge that present an equivalent to nikkyo. Some are outside in, from outward appearances -- but the waza are designed to move from under and over while in, producing kuzushi before the lock is even set. This is why the pain is / can be a secondary motivator: the joints are locked all the way through the uke's frame, the uke is already off balance, so sayonara.

Mert
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:42 PM   #35
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
There are around 10 waza in Hakkoryu's nidan-ge that present an equivalent to nikkyo. Some are outside in, from outward appearances -- but the waza are designed to move from under and over while in, producing kuzushi before the lock is even set. This is why the pain is / can be a secondary motivator: the joints are locked all the way through the uke's frame, the uke is already off balance, so sayonara.
I was practising nidan waza last night in training for my next grading, a mixture of suware and tachi waza. One of my sensei's performed shuto jime (sword hand) on me and I just collapsed in a heap on the mat. There was some initial pain but then my knees gave way and before I knew it I was crumpled on the floor. At the end of the day pain shouldn't be the primary motivator because without taking kuzushi the wrist locks won't work. If someone strong really locked out on you and you didn't take balance first, you're never going to successfully apply nidan before your attacker punches you in the head. Taking posture is paramount and then the wrist lock will work, locking up the frame producing compliance.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:33 AM   #36
Richard Stevens
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Having received nikkyo/nidan from both high level Aikido and Hakkoryu practitioners I am confident in saying the Aikido nikkyo was more successful in controlling my "body" while the Hakkoryu nidan simply hurt more.
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:53 PM   #37
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Shioda mentioned at times that Ueshiba's Nikyo didn't hurt - rather, it unhinged the knees. I think that the Yoshinkan tends to follow this method (if they can), which fits in with the OP's experience (at least, that was my experience with the Yoshinkan).

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-29-2013, 08:36 AM   #38
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Kawahara Shihan many times applied nikyo to me and every time it both hurt like blazes and locked me up completely. I couldn't move once he had fully applied nikyo, not because of the pain, but because he had manipulated me into total immobility. This is the kind of nikyo I work for. Certainly, I don't think anyone should feel badly about having a nikyo that both locks and causes pain to uke.

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Old 04-29-2013, 09:36 AM   #39
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Shioda mentioned at times that Ueshiba's Nikyo didn't hurt - rather, it unhinged the knees. I think that the Yoshinkan tends to follow this method (if they can), which fits in with the OP's experience (at least, that was my experience with the Yoshinkan).

Best,

Chris
Thanks. What are your sources for Shioda anecdotes? They are definitely teaching a non-painful nikajo here in Kyoto, but sometimes it degrades into painful nikajo. Especially during hajime geiko.

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Old 04-29-2013, 10:01 AM   #40
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
Thanks. What are your sources for Shioda anecdotes? They are definitely teaching a non-painful nikajo here in Kyoto, but sometimes it degrades into painful nikajo. Especially during hajime geiko.
From my time hanging out with one of his direct students - but I think that I've seen it in writing, although I can't recall where at the moment...

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:29 PM   #41
Helle Buvik
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
The question is whether that "induced collapse" is a developed "Pavlovian" response to having enough done, um, with "feeling" prior. How many have shown a brand new student a nikkyo only to have them stare at you? In pain. Eyes watering. But completely oblivious to how to go down and relieve the pressure on their wrist.

In other words, an experience person manipulating your structure through the wrist such that you get the "right" feeling meaning you take the "proper" ukemi at that point. The question is whether you "really" had to go down due to the structural feel *or* if you simply feel *both* the structural manipulation ("correct" feeling) and you simultaneously realize the next feeling coming is going to be the pain. then eventually you know the structural feeling and react to that prior to actually having to move? Conditioned responses are by definition automatic and rather instantaneous and feel like they were not intentional.
I'd say that at it's best, the pain is entierly unnessesary. my experience come from training with someone that did not at all react to, or seem to feel pain in the ways other people feel it. His body would react to exhaustion but wouldnt give any pain signal, and we had to warn guests to the dojo to be carefull with his shoulders in most of the locks because there was no pain to warn him to tap out.

Nikkyo that relies on pain complianse does not work on him at all but I've still seen people that could make his feet give out under him every time so there has to be something other than pain working there. It's a lot harder to do, and I'd be very lucky to manage to do working nikkyo without causing pain one out of a hundred tries

Helle.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:58 PM   #42
Walter Martindale
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Helle Buvik wrote: View Post
I'd say that at it's best, the pain is entierly unnessesary.

Helle.
Hmm. If... and it's a BIG if... If you're "out there" and needing to do nikyo "for real" - you'll do whatever the heck is needed to put the other person down. In an "out there" situation, if we're even able to actually put a nikyo on someone in a real life-and-death fight, the purpose would be to break the arm and put the person out of action. We TRAIN to move either to avoid feeling the pain (wimps) or to tolerate some pain before complying because the body's all seized up due to the positioning. We don't train to break our partner's arms because we need to practice with someone and if we bust them up, we don't got nobody to practice with. In the "real world" whatever that is, attacks are nasty, aimed at killing, and we can't afford to give up anything in making "uke" comply... Bust the arm, take the knife away from him (usually - if we're lucky) and cut through the triceps and biceps so he can't use that arm any more - or shove the knife through the foramen magnum (in science class with frogs this is called "pithing"). THEN call for a lawyer to help stay out of prison.

All that, of course, happens (maybe) AFTER we've tried to talk the attacker out of fighting, After we've run away, and AFTER the SOB has caught up to us with foul intent. Or... because we've spent so much time forgetting that it's a MARTIAL art, we get ourselves stuck full of holes.

It's a MARTIAL ART ffs.

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 05-04-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:24 PM   #43
graham christian
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Hmm. If... and it's a BIG if... If you're "out there" and needing to do nikyo "for real" - you'll do whatever the heck is needed to put the other person down. In an "out there" situation, if we're even able to actually put a nikyo on someone in a real life-and-death fight, the purpose would be to break the arm and put the person out of action. We TRAIN to move either to avoid feeling the pain (wimps) or to tolerate some pain before complying because the body's all seized up due to the positioning. We don't train to break our partner's arms because we need to practice with someone and if we bust them up, we don't got nobody to practice with. In the "real world" whatever that is, attacks are nasty, aimed at killing, and we can't afford to give up anything in making "uke" comply... Bust the arm, take the knife away from him (usually - if we're lucky) and cut through the triceps and biceps so he can't use that arm any more - or shove the knife through the foramen magnum (in science class with frogs this is called "pithing"). THEN call for a lawyer to help stay out of prison.

All that, of course, happens (maybe) AFTER we've tried to talk the attacker out of fighting, After we've run away, and AFTER the SOB has caught up to us with foul intent. Or... because we've spent so much time forgetting that it's a MARTIAL art, we get ourselves stuck full of holes.

It's a MARTIAL ART ffs.
Or just get good at nikyo. Then no need for busted arms etc. This is Aikido.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:42 AM   #44
Walter Martindale
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Or just get good at nikyo. Then no need for busted arms etc. This is Aikido.

Peace.G.
Yeah, I get that. At training we need to keep our partners healthy while we train to be very good at Aikido.

Kawahara sensei, late shihan for Canada used to tell stories about how even the best dojo sensei weren't "good enough" to use aikido for real out in the world - telling stories about sensei or others who'd get robbed and/or killed in incidents where - had they been able to actually "do" the aikido they'd been teaching, they'd still be alive.

The training - if we/you treat aikido as if it's a martial art - has to have some connection to whatever reality is, or it's "exercise with pajamas and baggy black pants".

We had an Aussie fellow teaching at the dojo I used to visit in Christchurch - he'd beat the crap out of uke in knife defenses (without actually damaging uke - pain yes, damage no) - a little bit apologetically, but he'd close it off by saying, "Yeah, it hurts and I'm a bit rough on him but he did attack me with a knife." Kawahara was delighted when people were thrown around with great vigour but without injury. Masuda would say "protect uke" - somewhere in there is a balance, because (I've said this before) we need people for practice, but we need to practice stuff that is potentially very dangerous. Izumi, in the brief time I was training with him, would teach us stuff that was off the curriculum, but that he said had kept him alive (and showed me the scars on his forearms from practical experiences).

So to my mind, if we're doing this as a "martial art" we need to ensure that we cover as many bases as we can, and in the end, do what we can to avoid ever having to use it outside of the dojo. My own situation is that I'm slow, old, and limping on both legs for various reasons, and hoping to get back to practicing at some stage.

Am I good at nikyo? Not as good as I'd like to be, better than I used to be. Does it cause pain? Sometimes - more with beginners even when I'm being gentle - less with more experienced people even though they're moving quite dynamically.
Cheers,
W
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:31 AM   #45
graham christian
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Yeah, I agree we have to remember it's a martial art. Most stories from whoever, whether shihan or otherwise I take with a pinch of salt if I see they are based on fear. The answer is very rarely being harsh to make real for most times that is very unreal in my experience.

Simple understanding is the key as far as I am concerned. Correct understanding leads to correct application. Incorrect understanding leads to all kinds of weird and wonderful methods based on "what ifs" and "real life" and "martial" and "past" .........all too complex.

Just know how good you are at nikkyo with reality and you then know how much more you need to learn. End result is when you are very good at it and confident with it no matter who, where or when. Simple really.

Nikkyo hurts mainly to the degree someone isn't very good at it bottom line. Next in importance is that it hurts due to some people like giving pain unfortunately. I would say in my experience that's the second most common reason. Still, that's just as bad and actually useless. Good for ego though.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:12 PM   #46
Jonathan
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Nikkyo hurts mainly to the degree someone isn't very good at it bottom line.
Oh? Why is that? Why does pain from nikyo=bad nikyo?

Quote:
Next in importance is that it hurts due to some people like giving pain unfortunately. I would say in my experience that's the second most common reason. Still, that's just as bad and actually useless. Good for ego though.
Again, why is applying a painful but effective nikyo lock "bad and actually useless"?

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Old 05-05-2013, 02:46 PM   #47
graham christian
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Oh? Why is that? Why does pain from nikyo=bad nikyo?

Again, why is applying a painful but effective nikyo lock "bad and actually useless"?
Pain is o.k. if you understand what it is and when it is o.k.

First false assumption is that pain equals good control. No, pain is bad control.

Effective equals what? Most people stop at that. Shame. There is good effective and there is bad effective.

Pain is useful in training only so that the one receiving pain can learn to 'handle' it rather than be scared of it or even moved by it. That is it's only use really. To rely on giving it in order to control is the way to a future wake up and failure. So taking the future into account that makes it useless as it prevents you getting to a good control that really works in the future.

The 'lock' in nikkyo is secondary in effectiveness to the true technique.

All the above is tempered only by the fact that along the journey of practicing control techniques they will in the early and maybe mid way along the process of refinement be quite painful but that still doesn't equal good nikkyo, only equals practicing nikkyo.

So I repeat good is painless, a joy to do and a joy to receive. Takes extra discipline.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:04 PM   #48
Jonathan
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Pain is o.k. if you understand what it is and when it is o.k.
I'm afraid this amounts to saying something without actually saying anything. This statement is so vague as to be meaningless.

Quote:
First false assumption is that pain equals good control. No, pain is bad control.
You've only just made a statement here. You haven't offered any rationale for it. Do you have one? Why is it a false assumption that pain equals good control. Please note that I didn't actually say this. I asked why painful nikyo=bad nikyo. I have felt very painful nikyo that was very effective in controlling me and locking me into immobility. Is this bad nikyo? If so, why?

Quote:
There is good effective and there is bad effective.
If nikyo is effective with pain why is it bad?

Quote:
Pain is useful in training only so that the one receiving pain can learn to 'handle' it rather than be scared of it or even moved by it.
Well, this is one perspective on the issue of pain in training. Do you think everyone should hold your view? If so, why?

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That is it's only use really. To rely on giving it in order to control is the way to a future wake up and failure.
Oh? Why?

Quote:
So taking the future into account that makes it useless as it prevents you getting to a good control that really works in the future.
I have been totally controlled by my late shihan's nikyo and it was very painful! His nikyo "really worked" and it hurt like heck!

Quote:
The 'lock' in nikkyo is secondary in effectiveness to the true technique.
Which is what, exactly?

Quote:
All the above is tempered only by the fact that along the journey of practicing control techniques they will in the early and maybe mid way along the process of refinement be quite painful but that still doesn't equal good nikkyo, only equals practicing nikkyo.
You haven't yet offered any solid justification for what you're saying. So far, all you've done is make assertions.

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So I repeat good is painless, a joy to do and a joy to receive. Takes extra discipline.
Is this the sum total of your reasoning behind saying that a painful nikyo is bad? I hope not. Certainly, if avoiding pain in training is one's goal, then you might be right. But if one is seeking to be martially effective, I don't see that painless necessarily equates to effective.

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Old 05-05-2013, 04:45 PM   #49
graham christian
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I'm afraid this amounts to saying something without actually saying anything. This statement is so vague as to be meaningless.

You've only just made a statement here. You haven't offered any rationale for it. Do you have one? Why is it a false assumption that pain equals good control. Please note that I didn't actually say this. I asked why painful nikyo=bad nikyo. I have felt very painful nikyo that was very effective in controlling me and locking me into immobility. Is this bad nikyo? If so, why?

If nikyo is effective with pain why is it bad?

Well, this is one perspective on the issue of pain in training. Do you think everyone should hold your view? If so, why?

Oh? Why?

I have been totally controlled by my late shihan's nikyo and it was very painful! His nikyo "really worked" and it hurt like heck!

Which is what, exactly?

You haven't yet offered any solid justification for what you're saying. So far, all you've done is make assertions.

Is this the sum total of your reasoning behind saying that a painful nikyo is bad? I hope not. Certainly, if avoiding pain in training is one's goal, then you might be right. But if one is seeking to be martially effective, I don't see that painless necessarily equates to effective.
Wow, a lot of questions. Assertions? Yes. I admit they are my assertions. If you read what I said there is no 'avoidance of pain' included and in fact quite the opposite for I pointed out how it is useful in order to learn how to deal with it.

So lets start with assertions. I assert what I said to be true. So you can take it that I am saying that's the basic view to start from. So if one throws away all other considerations first or at least puts them to the side for a moment we may then be able to proceed to reasoning behind said assertions. We may also see that some reasoning has also already been offered.

You ask why painful nikkyo is bad nikkyo. Well very fundamentally pain is not good. So I ask you to look at pain. What is it?

Generally it is a flag, an indication something is not good. Be it a pain in the belly, head or wherever it is a flag telling you something is wrong, something needs addressing. If you are sawing a piece of wood and feel pain in your finger you stop for it tells you something is amiss. Carry on and you will maybe lose your finger. So there is the first piece of rationale. Pain equals something ain't good.

Now you no doubt have heard the expression no pain no gain which tends to glorify pain. Well rather that just jump to the conclusion that equals pain is good it is best to understand what that type of pain is. In body building or weight training it is muscle fibres being broken. So if you understand that then you can see the mechanism involved in increasing muscle mass 'quickly' and understand whay you will feel it.

Next we come to an even more basic to do with pain albeit venturing into the spiritual to a degree. Pain is resistance. This is also more pertinent to the best understanding of what I said above and also to the art of Aikido itself for those who take it seriously in my opinion.

So non resistance leads to no pain. Therefor it is good for uke to practice, to take the opportunity to practice the art of non resistance when receiving such things as nikkyo and they will find, if taught properly, what I say is true.

So, once discovering how non resistance handles pain one can then see that this strange thing called non resistance should be practiced at both ends ie: by the uke and by the nage. A nikkyo done with non resistance therefor gives no pain.

These are fundamental principles extant in Aikido. One of the 'magics' inherent in the proper training of Aikido. So my rationale says that given non resistance is fundamental to Aikido and it gives no pain then those techniques done which include it are good and those without it are not.

Therefor you can have a painful full blown 'inescapable' nikkyo done to you and believe it's good but I say it cannot be. Effective.... yes, if you don't know how to non resist it.

Many people may have been totally controlled by painful this or that and so are led to believe that is good and indeed ultimate. Far be it from the case my friend.

I have met many whose eyes go wide in disbelief when their 'painful' technique doesn't work. Every time bar none it was due to what they believed regarding what they were doing and every time bar none they did believe that pain had a major part to play in the making of the technique work. Thus for them it was at that time a dangerous belief. A bad one.

So apart from my rationale I offer my personal experience for that is all I can. Non resistance is a hard (soft ha, ha) thing to learn but is very real and part of this fine art. I would say it's good to learn it and bad not to, it's good to practice it and bad not to.

There is nothing more painful than certain pressure points. I have found that applying non resistance to even those works.

So far be it for me to say why said teacher used pain to demonstrate a technique at a particular time with a particular student for there may have been a specific reason. However I have met some who considered it normal and indeed necessary and in more than one case to extreme. Alas.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:39 PM   #50
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
So lets start with assertions. I assert what I said to be true. So you can take it that I am saying that's the basic view to start from.
For you, perhaps, but the point of my questions was to highlight that you need a justification for why this should be the basic view from which you start.

Quote:
You ask why painful nikkyo is bad nikkyo. Well very fundamentally pain is not good. So I ask you to look at pain. What is it?

Generally it is a flag, an indication something is not good. Be it a pain in the belly, head or wherever it is a flag telling you something is wrong, something needs addressing. If you are sawing a piece of wood and feel pain in your finger you stop for it tells you something is amiss. Carry on and you will maybe lose your finger. So there is the first piece of rationale. Pain equals something ain't good.
But this fact actually suggests that pain is valuable. Without pain one would be unaware that one was sawing off one's finger. If one did a lot of sawing of wood, one could, in the absence of the sensation of pain, potentially lose a lot of fingers! Pain, then, is a good thing since it tells us that something injurious is happening to us and we ought to act to prevent the injury from continuing.

In any case, you haven't yet established why pain in the application of the technique is bad. All you've done so far is explain the obvious: pain indicates that something injurious is occurring. I still don't see that when applying nikyo painfully to someone I do the lock badly. I want uke to understand as the lock is applied that "something ain't good" and that if he does not yield to the lock what "ain't good" is only going to get worse.

Quote:
Now you no doubt have heard the expression no pain no gain which tends to glorify pain. Well rather that just jump to the conclusion that equals pain is good it is best to understand what that type of pain is. In body building or weight training it is muscle fibres being broken. So if you understand that then you can see the mechanism involved in increasing muscle mass 'quickly' and understand whay you will feel it.
So, you're saying here that the pain of intense physical exercise is not a bad thing because it yields increases in muscle mass and strength? But this implies that not all pain is bad, that pain actually may signal something ultimately positive is occurring. This doesn't seem to me to help establish your view that pain in nikyo is always a bad thing...

Quote:
Next we come to an even more basic to do with pain albeit venturing into the spiritual to a degree. Pain is resistance. This is also more pertinent to the best understanding of what I said above and also to the art of Aikido itself for those who take it seriously in my opinion.
This is rather confusing. Are you saying "Pain is resistance" is a spiritual truth? If so, how, exactly?

And why should Aikido be a spiritual endeavour? Why is this the view of those who are "taking it seriously"? My late shihan took his Aikido very seriously but I never once in the twenty-some years I knew him ever heard him speak of the spirituality of Aikido. I don't, then, see that serious Aikido must be spiritual.

Quote:
So non resistance leads to no pain.
But this is precisely why pain in nikyo is useful: it encourages non-resistance on the part of uke.

Quote:
So, once discovering how non resistance handles pain one can then see that this strange thing called non resistance should be practiced at both ends ie: by the uke and by the nage. A nikkyo done with non resistance therefor gives no pain.
I'm afraid you aren't making much sense here. You say that pain is important in discovering how not to resist but this means one must receive pain in order to make such a discovery. But in the context of Aikido training this suggests that Aikido technique ought to be painful so that uke might learn non-resistance. You've said, though, that painful technique is not good technique. Why then should nage perform painful technique on uke? Doing so, in your view, is to practice bad technique. Do you see the glaring problem in this? I do.

You haven't offered any explanation for how discovering non-resistance through pain leads to the understanding that non-resistance should be practiced by both uke and nage. If non-resistance is related to experiencing pain, are you saying nage should be in pain while practicing technique? Surely not. But this is the impression your words are giving.

Your rationale above seems to be:

1. Experiencing pain leads to an understanding of non-resistance.
2. Understanding non-resistance leads to understanding that both uke and nage should practice non-resistance.
3. Therefore, nikyo should not be applied painfully.

This is a glaring non-sequitur. Your conclusion does not clearly issue from your premises.

Quote:
So my rationale says that given non resistance is fundamental to Aikido and it gives no pain then those techniques done which include it are good and those without it are not.
But you haven't yet given a reasonable justification for making it a given that "non-resistance is fundamental to Aikido." All you've said is that experiencing pain leads to understanding non-resistance, not why this understanding is "fundamental to Aikido."

Quote:
Therefor you can have a painful full blown 'inescapable' nikkyo done to you and believe it's good but I say it cannot be. Effective.... yes, if you don't know how to non resist it.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion - however unjustified it may be...

I would be very interested in applying my nikyo to you and seeing just how well your non-resistance voids it.

Quote:
Non resistance is a hard (soft ha, ha) thing to learn but is very real and part of this fine art. I would say it's good to learn it and bad not to, it's good to practice it and bad not to.
I agree. But I don't get the sense that you've thought very carefully through your views, which makes me very skeptical about your understanding of non-resistance.

Regards,

Jon.

Last edited by Jonathan : 05-05-2013 at 10:47 PM.

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