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Old 05-01-2013, 10:31 AM   #26
Richard Stevens
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

If you're not taking their balance before the tenkan there is an issue. Kuzushi should happen before you start moving through.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:37 AM   #27
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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If you're not taking their balance before the tenkan there is an issue. Kuzushi should happen before you start moving through.
balance is taken first - posture first and then uke is kept off posture throughout the technique. What I meant by my last sentence was getting lower than your uke, breaking their balance to effect the ukemi once you have tenkaned.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:28 PM   #28
Richard Stevens
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

I see what you mean. I thought you meant uke had their balance until you began your tenkan. I'm tall so I get extremely low. Hobbs-Sensei gave me a very good tip that has helped. He told me to get low and place my elbow on my knee before I lock out the wrist. It really gets uke on their tip toes.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:53 PM   #29
Devon Smith
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

I think Mert is trying to get you to think about what you'd do in the instance shown in the video he posted, which is an application of Hakkoryu's niho nage as taught in the past and still described by Shodai Soke Okuyama in the higishi manuals today. Realize this is an exercise, like waza, but it has a point to teach.

Even if the receiver has traction on the floor, the movement to upset him is the important point, and to be able to do this with relaxation is key. This isn't the technique that best demonstrates "aiki" in my opinion but I can understand why he chose it.

Mert, please let me know if we're on the same page in this regard.

Devon

Last edited by Devon Smith : 05-02-2013 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:52 AM   #30
Mert Gambito
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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Devon Smith wrote: View Post
I think Mert is trying to get you to think about what you'd do in the instance shown in the video he posted, which is an application of Hakkoryu's niho nage as taught in the past and still described by Shodai Soke Okuyama in the higishi manuals today. Realize this is an exercise, like waza, but it has a point to teach.

Even if the receiver has traction on the floor, the movement to upset him is the important point, and to be able to do this with relaxation is key. This isn't the technique that best demonstrates "aiki" in my opinion but I can understand why he chose it.

Mert, please let me know if we're on the same page in this regard.
Thanks Devon.

Yes, that's what I was going after. What works in this variation of Niho Nage is the same thing that must be present for the very first technique in the syllabus, and all others thereafter, to work; and so it's foundational to aiki vs. being a grand exposition of aiki.

But the wall is there to set parameters: the tori has to get really low -- so yes, that's a prerequisite for any interpretation of the technique -- but the tori's body can't leave the wall, he can't physically lower his posture to get leverage, and yet he must relax. This is a challenge whether the uke is wearing socks or not, and whether the tori is relaxed or not. If someone hasn't tried it, perhaps give it a go.

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:30 AM   #31
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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Devon Smith wrote: View Post
I think Mert is trying to get you to think about what you'd do in the instance shown in the video he posted, which is an application of Hakkoryu's niho nage as taught in the past and still described by Shodai Soke Okuyama in the higishi manuals today. Realize this is an exercise, like waza, but it has a point to teach.

Even if the receiver has traction on the floor, the movement to upset him is the important point, and to be able to do this with relaxation is key. This isn't the technique that best demonstrates "aiki" in my opinion but I can understand why he chose it.

Mert, please let me know if we're on the same page in this regard.

Devon
I understand but my point was that I don't see any difference between how Dentokan would approach this exercise and Hakkoryu. I've not practised this particular exercise but I am sure, judging from the demo itself, that my instructors would teach the same principles. The aim of every dentokan aiki-jujutsu waza is to be able to perform without strength and proper use of bodyweight. The principles integrated into the waza are designed to achieve this - posture before technique as one sensei once put it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:09 PM   #32
Mert Gambito
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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I understand but my point was that I don't see any difference between how Dentokan would approach this exercise and Hakkoryu. I've not practised this particular exercise but I am sure, judging from the demo itself, that my instructors would teach the same principles. The aim of every dentokan aiki-jujutsu waza is to be able to perform without strength and proper use of bodyweight. The principles integrated into the waza are designed to achieve this - posture before technique as one sensei once put it.
I have no doubt that's the case. But, it's to the point of your OP to emphasize that I don't see a de-emphasis regarding aiki in Hakkoryu vs. Daito-ryu and aikido, but rather there are different flavors of these principles between Daito-ryu and its descendants, and in turn between Hakkoryu and its offshoots. Executing tachi waza from a starting point of being pinned to a wall by a ryote attack simply helps elucidate the flavor of a given interpretation.

I'd venture to say that there are notable differences today in those interpretations between Hakkoryu, Kokodo and the Dentokan. And, not only can the interpretations of the principles differ greatly from art to art, but also to a certain degree from teacher to teacher within an art, and student to student within a dojo. I feel that Hakkoryu, for its part in recent years, has reaffirmed its baseline interpretations and protocols by increasingly pointing out to the student body how the art today correlates to the original teachings of the shodai soke. So, while there are various flavors of kihon waza in terms of minutiae of form, the vocabulary regarding what the underlying principles mean is growing more cohesive within the art -- aided by the nidai soke's direct participation in these efforts in Japan and abroad.

In the spirit of the preceding advice in the thread, I'd encourage you to not adjudicate these things from the comfort of your computing device keyboard and the confines of your own dojo. There have been some remarkable discoveries and/or reaffirmations when people actively seek out a qualified other perspective (Devon, Richard and I, for example, have reported some of ours on AikiWeb).

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 05-03-2013 at 05:24 PM.

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Old 05-04-2013, 04:53 AM   #33
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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I have no doubt that's the case. But, it's to the point of your OP to emphasize that I don't see a de-emphasis regarding aiki in Hakkoryu vs. Daito-ryu and aikido, but rather there are different flavors of these principles between Daito-ryu and its descendants, and in turn between Hakkoryu and its offshoots. Executing tachi waza from a starting point of being pinned to a wall by a ryote attack simply helps elucidate the flavor of a given interpretation.

I'd venture to say that there are notable differences today in those interpretations between Hakkoryu, Kokodo and the Dentokan. And, not only can the interpretations of the principles differ greatly from art to art, but also to a certain degree from teacher to teacher within an art, and student to student within a dojo. I feel that Hakkoryu, for its part in recent years, has reaffirmed its baseline interpretations and protocols by increasingly pointing out to the student body how the art today correlates to the original teachings of the shodai soke. So, while there are various flavors of kihon waza in terms of minutiae of form, the vocabulary regarding what the underlying principles mean is growing more cohesive within the art -- aided by the nidai soke's direct participation in these efforts in Japan and abroad.

In the spirit of the preceding advice in the thread, I'd encourage you to not adjudicate these things from the comfort of your computing device keyboard and the confines of your own dojo. There have been some remarkable discoveries and/or reaffirmations when people actively seek out a qualified other perspective (Devon, Richard and I, for example, have reported some of ours on AikiWeb).
I agree with everything you said; You can't learn any martial art purely from the internet, dvd, or book. I hope to gain further experience and tuition from other teachers and other arts when I can get the opportunity. At the moment that opportunity is not available to my knowledge here in the UK (I don't think there are any Hakkoryu or Kokodo dojos in the UK). Once I'm in Japan however, I hope to broaden my experiences and carry on my training.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:03 AM   #34
Richard Stevens
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

Both mainline Hakkoryu and KoKoDo place a lot of emphasis on the koho shiatsu and Dentokan does not. I think that is the defining difference. We make reference to meridians and vital areas, but Hobbs-Sensei is certainly not teaching shiatsu and considering the fact that I don't think he has studied it since his time at the hombu in the 80s, I don't imagine he will start anytime soon.

Dentokan is largely just Hakkoryu from the 1980s with no emphasis placed on the shiatsu. In my conversations with Devon and KoKoDo practitioners, the koho shiatsu is where the "aiki" comes from. In my mind, that sets Dentokan Jujutsu (or Dentokan Nihon Jujutsu as it's referred to now) apart as something significantly different. Not better or worse, just different.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:57 PM   #35
Mert Gambito
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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Both mainline Hakkoryu and KoKoDo place a lot of emphasis on the koho shiatsu and Dentokan does not. I think that is the defining difference. We make reference to meridians and vital areas, but Hobbs-Sensei is certainly not teaching shiatsu and considering the fact that I don't think he has studied it since his time at the hombu in the 80s, I don't imagine he will start anytime soon.

Dentokan is largely just Hakkoryu from the 1980s with no emphasis placed on the shiatsu. In my conversations with Devon and KoKoDo practitioners, the koho shiatsu is where the "aiki" comes from. In my mind, that sets Dentokan Jujutsu (or Dentokan Nihon Jujutsu as it's referred to now) apart as something significantly different. Not better or worse, just different.
I have to admit though, when I was looking for a martial art to practice, the shiatsu was a major deal-maker for me re: Hakkoryu (we were a Hakko Denshin Ryu dojo at the time). I checked out a number of schools, and in many there were students attending class who were sitting out (e.g. in BJJ, judo, aikido, striking arts) due to injuries. During one of the first time's I walked into my teacher's dojo, a sankyu said, "Don't worry. He (Gil Adams) knows a million ways to break people, but he can fix 'em too." Very true words.

Mert
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:39 AM   #36
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

I really understand this Mert,

the philosophy of budo and its emphasis on protecting life wherever possible, is a very powerful motivator to me. I want the confidence to be able to defend myself but I also want to be able to help others as well.

I find the approaches of aikido and hakkoryu to budo fascinating, both ultimately view budo as the way of peace just take different roads to achieve this. I always think about budo like this, you must first learn to take life before you can give it. We train in the martial arts to equip ourselves with the skillset and self-control to be able to respond decisively and react rationally to a violent confrontation. This is where we need the knowledge and ability to defend ourselves even against or with lethal force if necessary; but we are able to use that knowledge and ability to protect life when there is the option to do so.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:53 PM   #37
Mert Gambito
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Re: where is the Aiki in Dentokan Aiki-Jujutsu

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I want the confidence to be able to defend myself but I also want to be able to help others as well.
That's the bottom line for me too. And, over time, pursuit of the former, as a fellow student and later a teacher, opens more and more opportunities for the latter.

One pragmatic, ethical thing that Hakkoryu addresses, that I wish was the norm not the exception in martial arts as a whole, is the notion that helping others should include the ability to mitigate, and within reason address injuries that occur in one's dojo. After all, injuries are possible, if not likely in any physical activity, particularly in martial arts that stress sport and/or self defense. If, for example, you're going to repeatedly apply torque to others' joints, and expect them to take copious hard ukemi, you better know how to treat the inevitable toll such practice will take on people's bodies.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 05-06-2013 at 12:55 PM.

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