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Old 04-25-2013, 12:36 PM   #51
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I really think it would be better if you guys developed a new vocabulary and really did just say "Hey we've studied some deep martial arts and we're putting together a way to work on these things in the modern world." What you are doing is new. I think sometime in the next ten years you will realize that anchoring yourself to Aikido is holding you back.
Well, we've been putting out a lot of information showing that it isn't new, that what's your support to show that it is?

As far as I'm concerned, I am doing Aikido, and nothing but.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-25-2013, 01:11 PM   #52
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, we've been putting out a lot of information showing that it isn't new, that what's your support to show that it is?
Well you haven't done much as far as laying out exactly what your training is. I haven't seen the exercises and such explicitly described. There's no youtube videos.

I have seen bits and pieces hinting at what you do, but it still seems to be a new method. Different than Aikido, more similar to Chinese arts than Aikido's antecedents.

It is really cool to read your translations - you really have a knack for finding things that match what you're thinking, whether its one of Osensei's dokas, or something from one of Sagawa's students. Sometimes you provide a little bit of supporting information from some other source too. You've got this great thing going on - its very unique!

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
As far as I'm concerned, I am doing Aikido, and nothing but.
Like, in your life? That's great, man. It is my core calling also. But I practice other arts too - I put myself into them 100% when it is training time, and then I don't worry about redefining Aikido around the other arts' techniques, philosophies and parameters. I change a little and get a little better everytime I train, and it expresses itself no matter where I am or what I am doing.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:20 PM   #53
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Well you haven't done much as far as laying out exactly what your training is. I haven't seen the exercises and such explicitly described. There's no youtube videos.

I have seen bits and pieces hinting at what you do, but it still seems to be a new method. Different than Aikido, more similar to Chinese arts than Aikido's antecedents.

It is really cool to read your translations - you really have a knack for finding things that match what you're thinking, whether its one of Osensei's dokas, or something from one of Sagawa's students. Sometimes you provide a little bit of supporting information from some other source too. You've got this great thing going on - its very unique!

Like, in your life? That's great, man. It is my core calling also. But I practice other arts too - I put myself into them 100% when it is training time, and then I don't worry about redefining Aikido around the other arts' techniques, philosophies and parameters. I change a little and get a little better everytime I train, and it expresses itself no matter where I am or what I am doing.
Cliff,

I highly suggest you attend one of Bill Gleason's seminars...as soon as you can. He is now teaching IP/aiki from the ground up. Go and feel and do, then you will understand the history (and it's quite an old history), training methodology, and exercises, and perhaps even how it fits into Aikido. At the very least, I highly doubt you'll be able to tell Bill that what he's doing..isn't Aikido.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #54
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
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Well you haven't done much as far as laying out exactly what your training is. I haven't seen the exercises and such explicitly described. There's no youtube videos.

I have seen bits and pieces hinting at what you do, but it still seems to be a new method. Different than Aikido, more similar to Chinese arts than Aikido's antecedents.
Well, it's out there, for those who go through the trouble. "It's not on YouTube" and "seems to be" isn't much of a justification for your assertion that it's new. I know that there are senior instructors in your own organization who would tell you the same thing.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Like, in your life? That's great, man. It is my core calling also. But I practice other arts too - I put myself into them 100% when it is training time, and then I don't worry about redefining Aikido around the other arts' techniques, philosophies and parameters. I change a little and get a little better everytime I train, and it expresses itself no matter where I am or what I am doing.
No redifining Aikido going on around here - around here we leave that to the modern Aikido guys.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-25-2013, 01:56 PM   #55
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

To jump into the conversation.

For me, once I "found" BJJ and MMA and realized my failures/inadequacies in Aikido. I had to re-evaluate the relative value of my training. It really tore me apart and at first had me looking to abandon aikido all together as a lost cause as I felt like it had really let me done.

However, once I got through the chaos and confusion stage and then started to understand the structure, particularly of BJJ I began to have a better appreciation for the structure, the body and it's relationship to another. I found that I progressed faster than others in BJJ, apparently this came from my training in Aikido. So not a total loss or waste of time!

Upon critical observation over time, I realized that as a basic waza, Aikido, IMO had some inefficiencies. As Jon stated above, the early practitioners of aikido had training of many years and varied experiences before studying aikido. BJJ and MMA provided a proving ground that allowed me to expand my experiences and rapidly gain experience in ways that the relatively rigid/static/controlled experiences I had in aikido would not. BJJ's waza in particular offered a good structure to understand some fundamentals that I simply could not grasp in Aikido.

So, what was left in aikido that made it worthwhile. For me it was the aiki. So, I reached the conclusion that the only reason the methodology was of value over other forms of waza was about the transmission of aiki.

that being the case, I wanted to find the most efficient way possible to learn aiki. Unfortunately, I think that much of what we actually study is a combination of some aiki and some waza that actually does not lend itself well to either aiki or just good darn solid jiu jitsu. thus it becomes an inefficient delivery process for both.

I personally think there is something to be said for having a solid base or foundation in a good combative jiu jitsu system such as Kano Judo or what its closest lineage is now known as BJJ. It gives you a good foundation to build on. After you have that, I think that a very distilled aiki practice with methods designed to teach aiki is appropriate.

Is it different from aikido or is it a dilution of the practice to focus strictly on aiki development and not waza? I think not. I think that if you come to the table with a sound foundation in waza, you don't need to teach this side by side with aiki. You simply do waza as an applied practice of aiki, and spend you aiki practice on simply developing aiki.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that and frankly is really what it is all about. Anything else is simply a waza of some sort and YMMV depending on what you are trying to do with it.

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Old 04-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #56
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, we've been putting out a lot of information showing that it isn't new, that what's your support to show that it is?
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, it's out there, for those who go through the trouble. "It's not on YouTube" and "seems to be" isn't much of a justification for your assertion that it's new.
So you've been putting a lot of information out there, but I have to go through trouble to get it, but the burden is somehow on me to show otherwise...
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #57
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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So you've been putting a lot of information out there, but I have to go through trouble to get it, but the burden is somehow on me to show otherwise...
You made the assertion, that what we are doing is new and different. All I'm saying is, support your own assertion.

"Seems like" and "it's not on YouTube" are not, IMO, supporting arguments.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #58
Cliff Judge
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You made the assertion, that what we are doing is new and different. All I'm saying is, support your own assertion.

"Seems like" and "it's not on YouTube" are not, IMO, supporting arguments.

Best,

Chris
If it wasn't new and different why does one have to go to so much trouble to find it?
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #59
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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If it wasn't new and different why does one have to go to so much trouble to find it?
Being "hard to find" doesn't equal new - and the arguments have been laid out in great detail here and in other places over the years. How about some positive supporting arguments for your assertion?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-25-2013, 03:05 PM   #60
Cliff Judge
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You made the assertion, that what we are doing is new and different. All I'm saying is, support your own assertion.

"Seems like" and "it's not on YouTube" are not, IMO, supporting arguments.

Best,

Chris
Well I cannot, because I don't actually know what you do, because there is all of this secret stuff that you all can't talk about. Which doesn't stop you from talking about how it has fundamentally changed your practice and challenged the way you understand aiki.

Anyway I have gotten way too close to breaking the rules of conduct here and this conversation is well past any hope of being productive. Bon appetit.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 04-25-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:33 PM   #61
Chris Li
 
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Well I cannot, because I don't actually know what you do, because there is all of this secret stuff that you all can't talk about. Which doesn't stop you from talking about how it has fundamentally changed your practice and challenged the way you understand aiki.

Anyway I have gotten way too close to breaking the rules of conduct here and this conversation is well past any hope of being productive. Bon appetit.
There's really not much that I can't talk about (nothing, really, except things that don't touch on the core issues) - and Dan has posted some very detailed explanations over the years. He's not the only one, of course.

We have at least three workshops with Dan a year, and he and other folks hold workshops all over the world.

The time is past, IMO, when "inaccessibility" is a viable excuse - and a senior ASU instructor said that very thing here on AikiWeb just a short time ago.

FWIW...

Chris

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Old 04-25-2013, 09:31 PM   #62
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

"Inaccessible" == Have to go to a godforsakenfrozenisland in the north and abandon your wife and children for four months and devote 100% of your time to a paranoid old man who has to be cajoled into teaching you.

"Spoiled rotten" == Have to travel some few miles and pay a few dollars to attend a seminar where the same stuff is handed out to whoever shows up. And that's too much trouble.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:54 AM   #63
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
"Inaccessible" == Have to go to a godforsakenfrozenisland in the north and abandon your wife and children for four months and devote 100% of your time to a paranoid old man who has to be cajoled into teaching you.

"Spoiled rotten" == Have to travel some few miles and pay a few dollars to attend a seminar where the same stuff is handed out to whoever shows up. And that's too much trouble.
+1, LOL, "Like," etc.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:51 AM   #64
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Well, Chris, according to John Driscoll's analysis, you are probably doing Daito-Ryu 82% of the time …I don't have much to add here except to say I think Cliff is correct in that I do prefer to view "aiki" as the base of the pyramid. As we touch the surface of this stuff, some of us are finding that the particular waza becomes almost an after-thought -- and in some cases, one is scrambling to actually use the specific waza that is being shown because uke is already toast. I think this is where it becomes highly useful to MMA. The finish could look like Daito-Ryu, OR it could be a crushing elbow to the temple.

As for finding this stuff on youtube, I haven't found it difficult in the least (except for maybe videos of DH, that guy's like bigfoot). There are plenty of clips of O'Sensei out there and plenty of his uchi deshi (ex. Yamaguchi, Sunadomari, etc…) giving easy to follow examples of what good movement looks like on the outside. Obviously, you are not going to be able to view what they are doing on the inside on a video. That's what seminars are for…even if they are located in the most remote island on the planet -- which also happens to be a paradise on earth- and not just because of the plate lunches

Lastly, everything I have encountered in the training has been 100% congruent with my aikido practice, and I have not heard anyone who has actually trained this stuff who has said differently (this includes 6th dans). In contrast, the little bit I have done, and it is a little, has moved my "waza suck-o-meter" from enormous suckage to just under huge suckage. Aiki works, and not just on compliant ukes, and this is why I think it is beneficial to both traditional budo and MMA practitioners.

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Old 05-01-2013, 06:15 AM   #65
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

I really, really, really dislike it when people find aiki-like elements in MMA and then say, "See? REAL aikido is all over the place in MMA! People who say aikido doesn't work in MMA just don't know what REAL aikido is!"

This is a misuse of the word aikido. Aiki is a way of doing things; aikido is a specific martial art founded by Morihei Ueshiba which makes extensive use of aiki movement and whose techniques consist primarily of throws and locks.

Most people who claim to see aikido everywhere actually mean that they see aiki everywhere. Aikido is what we do in the dojo; the reason the stuff MMAers do doesn't look like what we do in the dojo is that it isn't aikido, according to any meaningful definition of the word.

Last edited by OwlMatt : 05-01-2013 at 06:17 AM.

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Old 05-01-2013, 07:25 AM   #66
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
Aiki is a way of doing things;
I would actually disagree with even this point. it is more a thing that happens; to the extent that you can do it or use it or apply it, that reduces to a matter of you being in the right place at the right time (possibly with the right structure or alignment).
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:31 AM   #67
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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I would actually disagree with even this point. it is more a thing that happens; to the extent that you can do it or use it or apply it, that reduces to a matter of you being in the right place at the right time (possibly with the right structure or alignment).
I'm not sure I'm with you on that, but that's not really my point.

My point is that there is a very big difference between aiki and aikido. Just because you see aiki in something doesn't mean there is aikido there. To say that MMA fighters (most of whom have never trained aikido) are doing aikido makes about as much sense as to say that every musician who improvises is playing jazz. Sure, improvisation is a foundational, unifiying concept of jazz, but that doesn't mean jazz has a monopoly.

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Old 05-01-2013, 07:34 AM   #68
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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I would actually disagree with even this point. it is more a thing that happens; to the extent that you can do it or use it or apply it, that reduces to a matter of you being in the right place at the right time (possibly with the right structure or alignment).
Could it also be that aiki is a phenomenon that is so complex to implement, that it merely appears to be something you are powerless to control, a form of magic where your main job is to just let it happen, if an explicit process of instruction on how to do it hasn't taken place and a lot of work hasn't gone into mastering it? What if there is never a wrong place or wrong time, you're just always expressing aiki that you have trained into the mind/body?

Putting aside the trope, or perhaps invoking it, that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, aiki does not have to be magic. Aiki does not have to be something that just happens, you are always working on making it happen, by use of the mind's intent. If it doesn't happen, that means we simply sucked at doing it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:51 AM   #69
Cliff Judge
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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I'm not sure I'm with you on that, but that's not really my point.

My point is that there is a very big difference between aiki and aikido. Just because you see aiki in something doesn't mean there is aikido there. To say that MMA fighters (most of whom have never trained aikido) are doing aikido makes about as much sense as to say that every musician who improvises is playing jazz. Sure, improvisation is a foundational, unifiying concept of jazz, but that doesn't mean jazz has a monopoly.
I am with you on this.

From my perspective, aiki is a universal principle. Forces meet and merge every day. Therefore, if you watch enough MMA fights, eventually you will see aiki happen. It doesn't mean that either of the fighters studied it or meant to apply it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:04 AM   #70
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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Could it also be that aiki is a phenomenon that is so complex to implement, that it merely appears to be something you are powerless to control, a form of magic where your main job is to just let it happen, if an explicit process of instruction on how to do it hasn't taken place and a lot of work hasn't gone into mastering it? What if there is never a wrong place or wrong time, you're just always expressing aiki that you have trained into the mind/body?

Putting aside the trope, or perhaps invoking it, that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, aiki does not have to be magic. Aiki does not have to be something that just happens, you are always working on making it happen, by use of the mind's intent. If it doesn't happen, that means we simply sucked at doing it.
As we are people of the 21st century typing these things on computers, doesn't it strike you as even mildly ironic that you think that an intellectual, technological, explicit approach is the true path to the wisdom of the ancients?
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #71
Lee Salzman
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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As we are people of the 21st century typing these things on computers, doesn't it strike you as even mildly ironic that you think that an intellectual, technological, explicit approach is the true path to the wisdom of the ancients?
I guess it depends which ancients you have in mind...

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Old 05-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #72
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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I really, really, really dislike it when people find aiki-like elements in MMA and then say, "See? REAL aikido is all over the place in MMA! People who say aikido doesn't work in MMA just don't know what REAL aikido is!"

This is a misuse of the word aikido. Aiki is a way of doing things; aikido is a specific martial art founded by Morihei Ueshiba which makes extensive use of aiki movement and whose techniques consist primarily of throws and locks.

Most people who claim to see aikido everywhere actually mean that they see aiki everywhere. Aikido is what we do in the dojo; the reason the stuff MMAers do doesn't look like what we do in the dojo is that it isn't aikido, according to any meaningful definition of the word.
There's that dance that Morihei Ueshiba promoted to 10th Dan (without any in class experience), so I don't know that it holds that you have to be in a formal Aikido class in order to be doing Aikido, at least according to the Founder.

It's interesting that Ueshiba presented a number of definitions for Aikido, none of which mentioned the technical curriculum of throws and locks.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #73
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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There's that dance that Morihei Ueshiba promoted to 10th Dan (without any in class experience), so I don't know that it holds that you have to be in a formal Aikido class in order to be doing Aikido, at least according to the Founder.

It's interesting that Ueshiba presented a number of definitions for Aikido, none of which mentioned the technical curriculum of throws and locks.

Best,

Chris
The technical curriculum of throws and locks is the only way to arrive at a definition of aikido that has any practical meaning at all, no matter what O Sensei says.

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Old 05-01-2013, 11:49 AM   #74
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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The technical curriculum of throws and locks is the only way to arrive at a definition of aikido that has any practical meaning at all, no matter what O Sensei says.
There should be a drinking game for the responses you are going to get for this.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:12 PM   #75
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Re: Can we see that aikido is all over the place in MMA?

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The technical curriculum of throws and locks is the only way to arrive at a definition of aikido that has any practical meaning at all, no matter what O Sensei says.
What he did, at least in the case of the dancer. Anyway, never mind the old man, he's dead anyway...

Of course the technical curriculum can be quite different in many cases - of Tohei, Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki, Nishio, Yamaguchi, Saito, Watanabe, Abe, et al - who is and isn't doing Aikido?

Some of would definitely say (or have said) that what you're doing isn't Aikido - of course, you might say the same thing...

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Chris

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