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Old 04-07-2013, 08:32 PM   #26
JP3
 
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Taking a huge step of ... something, I'll try to put myself into Tomiki's boots and answer the previous question, trying to conceive of his background in education, physical training, and his analytically and rationality-based mindset, if you'll allow me that luxury.

And, I'll slip into anecdote to explain what I'm going to say. Sorry in advance.

If you folks have ever had the pleasure to train with Howard Popkin (daito-ryu) guy from West Hempstead, NY) you'll be able to immediately know where I'm going. No Jun, it's not daito oriented, it's aiki.

I went to an aiki-related clinic in OKC (Windsong Dojo) at which Howard was the principal instructor. He was talking primarily about the relationship between his daito stuff and our own Tomiki stuff, and the cross-over in places and differences in others, like one point of pressure/control vs. our aikido's (usual) 2, and judo's (usual) 3. He had the opportunity to warm everyone up one morning, and he dicided to take us through the internal stuff he'd been doing as learned from Dan harden for a couple of years and enjoying. Tough stuff, actually. Yes... isometrics.

People tend to poo-poo isometrics for some reason, I don't know why. They can leave an Olympic-level athelete lying on the floor like a beached trout in 3 to 4 minutes, you know.

Anyway, there we are, about 50 of us scattered about the mat, doing these things which are sort of hindu-ish, yoga-ish I suppose, not having ever done anything hindu-ish in exercise, and only watching cute girls doing yoga and thinking "You ain't gonna catch me doing that," so I skipped it except for the pleasant spectating.

So, we finish this seminar, and in the afterglow of a fun 3-day deal, a few of the hard cases are sitting around in the Windsong anteroom off the mat room, and I ask something, probably dumb, about "I know that stuff we did was probably good for us, in a fitness sense, but is it useful in a defense sense, other than just - a better developed body defends itself better - sense?" Howard laughed, jumped up and said, "Well, you're not a little guy, do you think you can knock me down?"

OK, anyone with any sense and more than a year on the mat knows that's a bear trap waiting to spring, right? So, I sort of demurred, and Howard just laughed, "No, not like a scrap. Let's do this thing. I stand here and don't do anything, and you come up and push me down. Hell, just try to push me back."

So, I look at him, and think, "Really?" Howards no willowy guy, he's ... maybe 5'9" or so, and not so slim, so maybe he's pushing 2 bills, and I'm more than a bit more in both directions, so I think, "Something is about to happen to me."

So, I ask, "Do we need to go out on the mat?"

He laughs at me again, and says, "Nah, you just put your hand on my chest somewhere, and shove, and I'll try not to let you move me."

"That's it?"

"That's it."

(Ratio is 6'3 & 225# vs. 5'9" & ~195#)

Picture Howard standing with his arms at his sides, stance is square. As far as I can (and anyone else, I asked afterwards), and he is just grinning at me, waiting.

He says, "no punching, that's cheating. I've only been doing this a couple of years." I grunt, and put my hand on his left shoulder, heel of my palm against his clavicle, and start to put my push on him.

It didn't feel like "nothing" was happening, I could feel his body doing... something, but he didn't move, he just stood there grinning.

I think about it, my not doing anything. I contemplate the angle I'm pushing at, and since I'm taller, I think, "Maybe he's dropping it into his heels since I'm giving him a down vector..." and shift my knees, dropping my waist to push parallel to the floor.

Grin.

I shift my hand to push on his sternum, then relax and move back to farther outside his clavicle.

Grin.

"Are you going to really try?" he says.

So, I laugh, and give him the whole thing, driving forward off the back leg, unbendable arm, exhalation on the body drop, small cough of power release.

Grin.

My arm starts to tremble, lower back is starting to shake, and my drive leg is telling me that it'd like to quit and go get a beer.

Grin.

I drop my head forward, finishing with a complete bridging of my body into Howard's chest at what is approaching a 45-degree angle, and then he laughed again.

"Check this out, it'll blow your mind."

And then he started picking up first one foot, then the other. I am not kidding. If I'd been watching it on TV, I'd have been saying, "Oh, that's BS. The guy really isn't pushing, he's just standing there." But ... I wasn't.

So, I said all of that to say this. Was what Howard was going to me, demonstrating some IP which could be used to hold his position a "trick" or was it "useful?" I've no idea. Do I think that someone who could use that at need "make it useful" in a self-defense context, you bet your bananas.

So, now, to Tomiki's statements, first about isometrics, then about tricks of stage performers.

Does it matter?

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:00 AM   #27
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

A good amount of the solo training that is being prescribed in several internal skills camps is, in fact, isometric work. I think the main problem with Tomiki's straightforward commentary is that it sounds too modern and western to fit the bill for mystical martial skills training.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:09 AM   #28
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

I would describe none of the solo work we do as isometrics.

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Old 04-08-2013, 07:30 AM   #29
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
And then he started picking up first one foot, then the other. I am not kidding. If I'd been watching it on TV, I'd have been saying, "Oh, that's BS. The guy really isn't pushing, he's just standing there." But ... I wasn't.
that's because you were trying to move his body which is a big mistake. been there done that. you need to move his mind. try looking behind him and yell "big blue fin!", then shove.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:53 AM   #30
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I would describe none of the solo work we do as isometrics.
Of course internal drills are very, very different from isometric exercises that you would be prescribed by a physical therapist, for instance, but any drill where there is no outside body movement neatly falls into the category of "isometric". The strict definition is met by the standing and partial squat drills done by every internal training group I have seen, for instance. My point is that Tomiki must have thought himself quite clever in selecting this explanation. It was the kind of statement that is both quite accurate and gives away nothing, and is therefore very typical of conversation on the topic.

Last edited by bkedelen : 04-08-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:20 AM   #31
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Of course internal drills are very, very different from isometric exercises that you would be prescribed by a physical therapist, for instance, but any drill where there is no outside body movement neatly falls into the category of "isometric". The strict definition is met by the standing and partial squat drills done by every internal training group I have seen, for instance.
And any drill in which one breathes is a breathing exercise? ;-)
In my opinion the difference between isometric drills and standing practice (zhan zhuang) is so big, that if you put them in the same category, you're left with quite meaningless category.

OTOH, occasionally I do come across IS explanations that use Western anatomy in the same way as they were using qi, i.e. not as an attempt at scientific explanation, but as a model to shape your practice.
Don't know if this might apply to Tomiki, though.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:44 AM   #32
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
that's because you were trying to move his body which is a big mistake. been there done that. you need to move his mind. try looking behind him and yell "big blue fin!", then shove.
I'm sure that's what I was doing incorrectly. Thank you for reading my mind to know, that's helpful to me. And to think, all these years...

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:54 AM   #33
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

What Joep said. And besides, check the dictionary definition, yo.

And it's not just nitpicking on the word used. If you use that word to mean one thing in western sports, and the same word to mean something different in eastern martial arts, and then say the two are the same because you are using the same word, you have left the path of wisdom.

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Old 04-08-2013, 01:32 PM   #34
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Of course internal drills are very, very different from isometric exercises that you would be prescribed by a physical therapist, for instance, but any drill where there is no outside body movement neatly falls into the category of "isometric". The strict definition is met by the standing and partial squat drills done by every internal training group I have seen, for instance. My point is that Tomiki must have thought himself quite clever in selecting this explanation. It was the kind of statement that is both quite accurate and gives away nothing, and is therefore very typical of conversation on the topic.
After I had knee surgery, my physical therapy included working with a strength-and-conditioning coach who recommended isometric exercises as part of a regimen to help strengthen my knees. The prevailing western take regarding isometrics, like dynamic resistance training, is to focus on specific muscle groups, which is opposite of the IP/IS training, i.e. whole-body, approach without expressly engaging muscles. IP/IS training, in fact, has strengthened my knees noticeably beyond what I was able to achieve through conventional PT.

It's a bit of a well-worn declaration around these parts, but it's true: how many people do internal martial arts, knowing they're supposed to be doing whole-body conditioning in stillness and slow motion while eschewing muscle use, but can't handle the push of a 6'3", let alone 3'3" uke after several years or decades of training? (Nothing more ego-checking than to have a decent IP/IS practice session, only to go home and have your grade-school kids push up against your hara and immediately force you into stepping backward). So, I agree with Hugh that putting IP/IS training methodology into too big of a descriptive box doesn't help.

As for Kenji Tomiki, if he did associate Morihei Ueshiba's aiki with run-of-the-mill contemporary physical education, then that's where the thought of him talking in code about aiki as IP/IS gets a bit dodgy.

Also, a caveat: Howard's "two years" is not the same as just about everybody else's "two years", as has been described at length in the past.

Mert
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:25 PM   #35
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
The prevailing western take regarding isometrics, like dynamic resistance training, is to focus on specific muscle groups, which is opposite of the IP/IS training, i.e. whole-body, approach without expressly engaging muscles.
This is factually incorrect and I wish people with little or no exposure to modern strength and conditioning would stop talking about it until they earn an opinion the way everyone else has to: with a couple years on some rings or under a barbell.

Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, bodyweight conditioning, gymnastics, swimming, cycling, rowing, and jumping rope are all multi-articulate movements that use as much of the body as possible, as intelligently as possible to accomplish tasks.

The much ridiculed discipline of bodybuilding is the *only* area of "western" training that isolates specific muscle groups, and you have trotted it out as a straw man with which to knock down a huge range of disciplines backed by success records going back in some cases thousands of years.

To my knowledge no one has ever suggested bodybuilding as a path to developing martial arts skills, much less as an alternative to internal skills. Few athletes other than bodybuilders even considers it a fitness methodology because of a long track record of poor skill transfer to other activities, a drawback that is widely assumed by everyone else in fitness to be the curse of training muscles in isolation.

Note I am not implying that any of those disciplines will serve you better than internal training in developing Aikido skills, I am merely trying to clear up the factual errors being presented.

Last edited by bkedelen : 04-08-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:39 AM   #36
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Further clarification:

I think some people here may be assuming that "isometric" means to isolate a single muscle group, which it does not. Isometric drills are any static posture that requires opposing forces to maintain, such as the iron cross, L-sit, or holding a partial squat.

An isometric muscle contraction is a contraction that maintains the length of the muscle instead of shortening it.

Isometrics have absolutely nothing to do with muscle isolation or bodybuilding, and isometric training is not, as a general rule, part of the training protocol for bodybuilders. It is much more in the wheelhouse of strongmen, gymnasts, and other bodyweight enthusiasts.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #37
Mert Gambito
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
This is factually incorrect and I wish people with little or no exposure to modern strength and conditioning would stop talking about it until they earn an opinion the way everyone else has to: with a couple years on some rings or under a barbell.

Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, bodyweight conditioning, gymnastics, swimming, cycling, rowing, and jumping rope are all multi-articulate movements that use as much of the body as possible, as intelligently as possible to accomplish tasks.

The much ridiculed discipline of bodybuilding is the *only* area of "western" training that isolates specific muscle groups, and you have trotted it out as a straw man with which to knock down a huge range of disciplines backed by success records going back in some cases thousands of years.

To my knowledge no one has ever suggested bodybuilding as a path to developing martial arts skills, much less as an alternative to internal skills. Few athletes other than bodybuilders even considers it a fitness methodology because of a long track record of poor skill transfer to other activities, a drawback that is widely assumed by everyone else in fitness to be the curse of training muscles in isolation.

Note I am not implying that any of those disciplines will serve you better than internal training in developing Aikido skills, I am merely trying to clear up the factual errors being presented.
Benjamin,

I stand by what I said regarding the "prevailing western take" regarding isometrics and dynamic resistance training. Remember: the prevailing beliefs are those of the public at large. When the average Joe or Jane signs up for a gym membership with the thought of doing resistance training, what is he/she typically shown and sold (see photo below)? How many people who have greatly benefited from resistance training for years maintain a disciplined schedule of "upper-body days and lower-body days", whether they do high weight, low reps, or vice versa? Etc.



Also, based on my experience, I agree with you regarding isometrics. I didn't equate it to bodybuilding, but rather specifically pointed out a regimen for rehab was imparted to me: very different goals. And, also to your points, the reason the coach suggested isometrics was to strengthen more than just a given muscle, but rather everything needed to stabllize the knees. Nonetheless, the focus was specifically on muscles, which IP/IS training expressly avoids.

Mert
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:29 AM   #38
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Your point about a what you might see in the average globo-gym is valid, but doesn't take into account the whole picture.

I equate serious martial artists more closely with pro and semi-pro athletes than I do with my mom at the rec center. If you found yourself in a position to be overseen by a strength and conditioning coach to improve your sport performance, that coach will not have you doing lat pulldowns and hammer curl sets. He will teach you to clean and squat, do weighted chins, and run your ass off.

That methodology is so much more effective than the globo-gym methodology of selling gym memberships and hoping people will show up, that as of the last couple years the the fastest growing sector of the fitness industry is a return to old school barbell work but in a group training environment. We are actually in the middle of a strength and conditioning renaissance, with a huge increase in crossfit, barbell, parkour, climbing, and gymnastics facilities for adults happening all over the country.

My point is that talking about "modern" or "western" or "conventional" is a gross over-generalization that results in no meaning at all. Furthermore there is *tremendous* value in some of what is available in this space which could be lost if people assume that any trip to the gym will result in bodybuilding.

Last edited by bkedelen : 04-09-2013 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #39
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
My point is that talking about "modern" or "western" or "conventional" is a gross over-generalization that results in no meaning at all. Furthermore there is *tremendous* value in some of what is available in this space which could be lost if people assume that any trip to the gym will result in bodybuilding.
Benjamin,

If the topic was "What is Western Strength Training?", then I whole-heartedly agree. However, given that the qualities needed for successful development of the qualities that allow Howard, et al to stand on one foot and negate a full-power push while seeming relatively nonchalant about it -- which is where this aspect of the discussion started -- the generalizations hold: specifically for the purposes of differentiation from IP/IS training in the Asian internal martial arts.

Mert
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:33 PM   #40
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I think some people here may be assuming that "isometric" means to isolate a single muscle group, which it does not. Isometric drills are any static posture that requires opposing forces to maintain, such as the iron cross, L-sit, or holding a partial squat.
This definition is incomplete, and may explain why you're confused. As the exercises you cite suggest, isometric drills are for the purpose of developing muscular strength. IS drills aren't.

It's actually an interesting thought experiment to think how something like the iron cross could be turned into an IS drill, because it might illustrate the differences. So you might be told to hold the position but think about the strain being taken not by the lats but moving it around to different parts of the body. Maybe you'd visualize the hands connected by bungee cords to the small of the back. You'd certainly be told to relax (!) and to be able to move freely even though you're suspended in the air.

The exercise is silly, but points out some of the differences. E.g.: the strain's in the wrong direction, so the visualization doesn't really make sense. There are no alternative deep muscles (so far as I'm aware) to take the strain. And it's not whole-body because the legs aren't in the picture.

But that's what you're talking about --this thing that is ridiculous and silly is equivalent to what the IS people or doing. It's not.

It's still a duck.

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Old 04-09-2013, 11:44 PM   #41
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

What a great thread!!!

How could I have missed this?

It brings so many elements of the "IP/IT/IS" vs "being a trickster" vs "just being really good" argument together.

I want to address a number of statements in this one post.

Quote:
Kenji Tomiki in response to Stan Pranin wrote:
Q: Permit me to change the subject at this point. In modern psychology, science is attempting to discover if phenomena like telepathy and the sixth sense exist. Someone who practices martial arts for a long period of time realizes that he's not only working on the physical level but that sometimes by adopting a certain mental attitude he can influence the attacker; that there is some element present which is very difficult to describe, but it is not technique. What are your feelings on the psychic areas? Is it possible to influence the power of your partner's attack?

A: I have my doubts on that point. I deny it though there are people who say things like that happen. However, I don't deny things like hypnosis or telepathy exist under certain spiritual conditions. In the case of budo there may be such things but they are the "outer limits," the result of very extreme psychological (spiritual) conditions, situations where it is a question of will I live or will I die, and these are conditions that we simply don't meet today. They just don't exist, and it's good that they don't. It's no good to fight.
No disrespect intended, but I cannot place much value on Tomiki's opinion of martial arts if he didn't understand that it is a psycho-physical interaction. Period.

Quote:
John Powell wrote:
Was what Howard was going to me, demonstrating some IP which could be used to hold his position a "trick" or was it "useful?" I've no idea. Do I think that someone who could use that at need "make it useful" in a self-defense context, you bet your bananas.
Have you thought about it since??? What was happening? Why can't you explain it? Do you think Howard could do it in any situation?

By the way, the much maligned "Chris H." can do the very same thing (negating a push while standing square or on one foot or the other), and I'm not just saying that because he's my friend.

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote:
Also, a caveat: Howard's "two years" is not the same as just about everybody else's "two years", as has been described at length in the past.
Thank you for saying that. This can apply to others (on both sides), as well.

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, bodyweight conditioning, gymnastics, swimming, cycling, rowing, and jumping rope are all multi-articulate movements that use as much of the body as possible, as intelligently as possible to accomplish tasks.

The much ridiculed discipline of bodybuilding is the *only* area of "western" training that isolates specific muscle groups, and you have trotted it out as a straw man with which to knock down a huge range of disciplines backed by success records going back in some cases thousands of years.
Thank you for saying that. There are a few other disciplines that could be added to that list.

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote:
I equate serious martial artists more closely with pro and semi-pro athletes than I do with my mom at the rec center. If you found yourself in a position to be overseen by a strength and conditioning coach to improve your sport performance, that coach will not have you doing lat pulldowns and hammer curl sets. He will teach you to clean and squat, do weighted chins, and run your ass off.

That methodology is so much more effective than the globo-gym methodology of selling gym memberships and hoping people will show up, that as of the last couple years the the fastest growing sector of the fitness industry is a return to old school barbell work but in a group training environment. We are actually in the middle of a strength and conditioning renaissance, with a huge increase in crossfit, barbell, parkour, climbing, and gymnastics facilities for adults happening all over the country.

My point is that talking about "modern" or "western" or "conventional" is a gross over-generalization that results in no meaning at all. Furthermore there is *tremendous* value in some of what is available in this space which could be lost if people assume that any trip to the gym will result in bodybuilding.
Thank you for saying that.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote:
and to be able to move freely even though you're suspended in the air.
As if gymnasts don't!

The body is the body.

Martial arts are martial arts.

Fighting is fighting.

It's time we start discussing this stuff seriously and honestly.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:40 AM   #42
Mert Gambito
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Quote:
John Powell wrote:
Was what Howard was going to me, demonstrating some IP which could be used to hold his position a "trick" or was it "useful?" I've no idea. Do I think that someone who could use that at need "make it useful" in a self-defense context, you bet your bananas.
Have you thought about it since??? What was happening? Why can't you explain it? Do you think Howard could do it in any situation?
By the way, the much maligned "Chris H." can do the very same thing (negating a push while standing square or on one foot or the other), and I'm not just saying that because he's my friend.
Michael,

Just to add some clarification: Dan Harden does not need to create a "structure" with the uke, i.e. nage touching uke's pushing arm(s) with one or both hands, to negate a push while standing on one or both feet. The uke simply pushes, and the only point(s) of contact between the nage and uke are where the uke is pushing on the nage's body.

Presumably, since Howard trains in Dan's method, and Howard is known for being relatively immovable when pushed, Howard is also able to do the same thing, without the need to create a structure. However, hopefully John will return and clarify the conditions under which Howard did the push-test demos.

Mert
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:58 PM   #43
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

"Have you thought about it since???"

Yes, and ya didn't need all the extra question marks to make your point...

"What was happening?"

If I could have told you that, I probably would have, wouldn't I?

"Why can't you explain it?"

Because, as I "thought" I made perfectly clear in my original post, I don't have the slightest clue how it works, because, since I don't have the proper background in the IP stuff, I don't know what's happening. I think of the body's internal structure as a system of levers working on a lattice structure, and it was very clear that my conception is WAY to simplistic. That is as far as I've gotten with it. Flying around to train the way Howard does is for Howard, not for me, since I've got a kiddo in college (not to say that Howard doesn't, but there it is). I would LOVE to know.

"Do you think Howard could do it in any situation?"

No, I don't. He made it clear that he felt he was in the learning state with this stuff, and he was trying to sponge as much of it as he could from Dan harden, and he didn't really understand everything that was happening. Humble. I had hands on him a couple times during the day, and only in that structured setting was he doing what he did with that demo. Put Howard in a judo situation, hands already on movement initiated, and he's as human as any other very damn dangerous, high-level martial artist would be. Scary dangerous human, but human and "within the normal range" if you will. That one demo violated physics, so I obviously don't understand what was happening adequately. I did like it though, a lot.

* By the way, if you guys get a chance to train with Howard, it's a great time. He's not only scary-good at what he does, but he's also hilariously entertaining while doing it.

"By the way, the much maligned "Chris H." can do the very same thing (negating a push while standing square or on one foot or the other."

I don't malign Chris, his stuff sounds spot-on to me. Why is he "maligned?" Just because I can't do something that someone else can do doesn't make me malign them. I can dunk a basketball. Can Chris? Does that make him bad-talk me? I mean, he can bad talk me all he wants because I'm good looking or whatever, I'm not going to throw mud for no personal reason. There's apples and oranges in the world, both are fruit, and both are enjoyable.

Wow, that was a long reply post. Apologies.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:54 PM   #44
RonRagusa
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Here's a simple idea. Replace the human pusher with a hydraulic press that will apply a horizontal force to the chest of the person being pushed that is of equal magnitude to the human's push. The human's push will go from zero to some maximum over an interval of time. Have the force of the press increase over an identical period of time until it reaches the maximum.

Will the results be the same?

Ron

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Old 04-14-2013, 10:18 PM   #45
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
* By the way, if you guys get a chance to train with Howard, it's a great time. He's not only scary-good at what he does, but he's also hilariously entertaining while doing it.
Yep, it was a treat to meet and train w/ him in Seattle about a yr and a half ago and have been waiting ever since to get another chance - coming up next month!

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Old 04-15-2013, 12:38 AM   #46
Lee Salzman
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Here's a simple idea. Replace the human pusher with a hydraulic press that will apply a horizontal force to the chest of the person being pushed that is of equal magnitude to the human's push. The human's push will go from zero to some maximum over an interval of time. Have the force of the press increase over an identical period of time until it reaches the maximum.

Will the results be the same?

Ron
Short answer: no.

Long answer: It is not that you are purposely trying to take the pusher apart, but his own push will take him apart, by magnifying any faults in his own connectivity, if he is not as connected as the human being pushed. The better connected wins. Now if we have an evil pushing machine of doom, that is going to be quite unlikely that it would have severe mechanical faults in its structure, assuming it is made out of some metal of quality better than swiss cheese and adequately secured to the ground with more than chewing gum.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:18 AM   #47
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Here's a simple idea. Replace the human pusher with a hydraulic press that will apply a horizontal force to the chest of the person being pushed that is of equal magnitude to the human's push. The human's push will go from zero to some maximum over an interval of time. Have the force of the press increase over an identical period of time until it reaches the maximum.

Will the results be the same?

Ron
Yes, if you can duplicate the mechanics of a human push exactly - they're quite different from a hydraulic press, so it's not the same test.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-15-2013, 09:16 PM   #48
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

OK, we've had a "Yes" and a "No" on the Human vs. Hydraulic press question Ron posed.....

.... and I'm still wondering which I think is right.

Plastic?

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:07 PM   #49
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes, if you can duplicate the mechanics of a human push exactly - they're quite different from a hydraulic press, so it's not the same test.

Best,

Chris
I agree. A human pushing on me is subject to screwing up his posture, having an itchy nose, getting faked out by something I do, shifting his weight, not to mention continually readjusting sometimes not realizing it etc....

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:52 AM   #50
phitruong
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
OK, we've had a "Yes" and a "No" on the Human vs. Hydraulic press question Ron posed.....

.... and I'm still wondering which I think is right.

Plastic?
inflatable doll? John, i didn't know you are into that sort of thing! so shocking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch%27an
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Yang replied that there were only three kinds of people he could not defeat: men of brass, men of iron and men of wood.

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