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Old 04-12-2013, 09:37 AM   #26
Cliff Judge
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
After WW2 there was a general watering down of the martial arts in Japan as required by the occupying forces (US). I expect that this watering down is a reason for the lack of a "killing" atemi at the end of a throwing or locking technique in many styles.
No need to blame GHQ for that. Maybe they chose to take out the part of the kata that represents dropping a nuclear device on an already-downed enemy all by themselves.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:47 AM   #27
hughrbeyer
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Re: atemi at end of technique

No. Check the 1935 Asahi News video. O-Sensei uses no atemi there.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:37 PM   #28
Cliff Judge
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
No. Check the 1935 Asahi News video. O-Sensei uses no atemi there.
I don't have my copy of Stan Pranin's Conversations with the Daito ryu Masters with me at the moment, but there is some information in there about the Asahi dojo, one of the more interesting periods in the history of Aikido.

Basically:

1) Osensei was teaching there and they shot that film.
2) Takeda came to town
3) Osensei left rather suddenly, i think to Ayabe.
4) Takeda began teaching at the Asahi News Dojo.

5) Dojo members found a way to express their concern that they weren't being taught anything reproducible. Osensei would just get up there and do spontaneous technique. He left and Takeda did the same exact thing. He'd get ukes to attack him and he'd do some amazing stuff but he wasn't giving them a training method they could use to learn how to do what he was doing.

6) Tokimune was there, and he said "Hey, how about we teach these folks the Hiden Mokuroku like back in the day?"

7) So they studied the Hiden Mokuroku and produced the Soden.

I believe there may have been some normalization between the Takumakai and Tokimune's mainline group in the middle of the 20th centiury. Not sure where I read that but the two groups look somewhat similar these days. Pretty sure the Takumakai does todome now.

So the solution to the mystery of the disappearing todome could be a matter of political de-martialization. Or it could be an issue of Osensei eschewing the kata of Daito ryu and instead focusing on showing off the principals.

It could also be that the todome were not added in until later, too, I am not really sure.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:43 PM   #29
hughrbeyer
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So the solution to the mystery of the disappearing todome could be a matter of political de-martialization. Or it could be an issue of Osensei eschewing the kata of Daito ryu and instead focusing on showing off the principals.
Not much political de-martialization in 1935 Japan, if you'll recall. I think it's likely the second.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:50 PM   #30
Dave Forde
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i don't normally throw the atemi at the end of the technique, but i usually am in a position to deliver the atemi, be it fist, knee, choke, kick, dropping kitchen sink, at moment notice, i.e. i am not unbalanced or distracted. same goes for when i take ukemi. just because i am on the floor doesn't mean i am helpless and allow you to deliver the atemi unimpeded.
I think your last point is well made phi. actually your whole post is well put. if I for instance attempted to strike my instructor when he was a grounded uke i'd end up exactly where he was except maybe not in as good a shape. we are constantly reminded that when uke goes to ground it is just the beginning.
We are also taught that it is the job of uke to remain extended through which ever limb is being held in the pin and also through any contact with the floor. this allows him/her to 'feel' any atemi or other change in either nage's intent or the technique as soon as nage begins to apply said change. an alert uke can become nage in a split second even from a grounded position, as I find out every single class .
I would agree with others who have said that if atemi is to be applied it is better to do so before the pin or throw. from my- relatively inexperienced- viewpoint delivering a strike to a grounded uke changes the balance between both uke and nage and a whole new situation may arise. one that nage may be unprepared for. well in my case anyway.

Of course all of the above is only relevant if uke has gone to ground on their terms. otherwise the strike could be redundant as it would have been already applied. by the pavement.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #31
Chris Li
 
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
After WW2 there was a general watering down of the martial arts in Japan as required by the occupying forces (US). I expect that this watering down is a reason for the lack of a "killing" atemi at the end of a throwing or locking technique in many styles.
That's really a misconception and a myth - martial arts was taken out of the school curriculum for a time, but there was no general prohibition on training.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-12-2013, 03:41 PM   #32
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Re: atemi at end of technique

I don't believe that it was mere coincidence that Funakoshi watered down karate by de-emphasising strikes to vital parts of the body, that Kano who once was enthusiastic about including atemi in judo, decided to abandon atemi except in a few kata and that atemi and vital pressure point manipulation were de-emphasised when aikido developed from Daito Ryu. These all seemed to occur around the middle of last century. The martial aspect of these arts had to be de-emphasised if they were to continue being practised.

In terms of the previously mentioned analogy of a finishing atemi with the nuclear bombs that were dropped - yes a good analogy: atemi can finish a conflict quickly and decisively and avoid the loss of life of the person/s being attacked by a foe who otherwise would not surrender easily.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:56 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Daniel Wilson wrote: View Post
I don't believe that it was mere coincidence that Funakoshi watered down karate by de-emphasising strikes to vital parts of the body, that Kano who once was enthusiastic about including atemi in judo, decided to abandon atemi except in a few kata and that atemi and vital pressure point manipulation were de-emphasised when aikido developed from Daito Ryu. These all seemed to occur around the middle of last century. The martial aspect of these arts had to be de-emphasised if they were to continue being practised.

In terms of the previously mentioned analogy of a finishing atemi with the nuclear bombs that were dropped - yes a good analogy: atemi can finish a conflict quickly and decisively and avoid the loss of life of the person/s being attacked by a foe who otherwise would not surrender easily.
OK, Kano died in 1938, so it would have been pretty hard for him to modify anything at all after the war.

Certainly, things were modified - and who modified them and why is an interesting discussion - but there was certainly no requirement that they be modified by the occupying forces.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-12-2013, 04:31 PM   #34
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
6) Tokimune was there, and he said "Hey, how about we teach these folks the Hiden Mokuroku like back in the day?"

7) So they studied the Hiden Mokuroku and produced the Soden.

I believe there may have been some normalization between the Takumakai and Tokimune's mainline group in the middle of the 20th centiury. Not sure where I read that but the two groups look somewhat similar these days. Pretty sure the Takumakai does todome now.

So the solution to the mystery of the disappearing todome could be a matter of political de-martialization. Or it could be an issue of Osensei eschewing the kata of Daito ryu and instead focusing on showing off the principals.

It could also be that the todome were not added in until later, too, I am not really sure.
The Soden was an effort to preserve the techniques of Sokaku Takeda photographically, and it has nothing to do with the normalization that occurred (but never really stuck) in the 1980's.

I don't think that there is a mystery, and that it's a very minor point to obsess over. Morihei Ueshiba taught it before the war, and he taught it after the war. Various people emphasize it to various degrees, and it's pretty much the same in Daito-ryu.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-12-2013, 04:31 PM   #35
Aikeway
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Re: atemi at end of technique

I just had a look at Kawaishi's book "My Method of Judo" which was written in 1955. In the forward to the book, he explains how many of the dangerous techniques have been taken out of Japanese judo recently, but that in his method of judo which he was teaching in Europe, he has maintained those techniques as he thought it more appropriate for Europeans to learn a style of judo that still had those "dangerous" techniques.

I tend to believe that rather than any formal declaration that martial arts must take out the martial aspect of their arts, that there was always an underlying threat that unless they do so, the martial art would be banned.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:33 PM   #36
Cliff Judge
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Morihei Ueshiba taught it before the war, and he taught it after the war.
Oh yeah? Finishing blows?
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:49 PM   #37
Chris Li
 
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Oh yeah? Finishing blows?
Sure, it's even on film.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-13-2013, 06:01 AM   #38
Cliff Judge
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Re: atemi at end of technique

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure, it's even on film.

Best,

Chris
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