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Old 02-21-2013, 07:27 AM   #1
Scott Harrington
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Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Was glancing over at Aikido Journal (great site!) and saw a pic of Ueshiba from the 1938 "Budo" book and how this may have been a preliminary step away from Daito ryu to Aiki Budo to Aikido in developing kokyu (breath power).

Well, did a little research. First, the pic is on page 69 in Budo (Kodansha publ.) and shown as a preliminary kuzushi (balance taking) to a practice move - BACK STRETCH.

Image looking familiar, I did a quick book check and was nicely surprised by my find. Here is the same preliminary kuzushi by Daito ryu master Sagawa leading up to a throw. You can see the EXACT same posture for uke and nearly same posture for nage except not an exercise so a grip to hold onto your partner. So, I perhaps Ueshiba is showing his Daito ryu roots more than his developing Aikido.

The more things change the more they remain the same.

Scott Harrington
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File Type: pdf sagawa kokyu.pdf (171.1 KB, 442 views)
File Type: pdf ueshiba kokyu.pdf (203.4 KB, 403 views)
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:35 AM   #2
dreamborn
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Scott

Yes, this does appear to show the Daito Ryu roots. But look at O-sensei's koshi and projection. To me it appears he is diverting the attack completely, look at the uke. Just my observation.

風柳 剣人
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:47 AM   #3
Michael Douglas
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Scott : Jpegs are nicer.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:20 PM   #4
Dan Richards
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

There's some interesting things there, at least to my eye.

Sagawa looks like he's deflating uke - letting the air out. Depressurizing.

Ueshiba looks like he's inflating uke - putting the air in. Pressurizing.

But a little trick here is that Sagawa - in the frame - is probably just a bit early in the movement, closer to initial contact. He's about 10 degrees off the line. That would be in a safe "dead" zone to receive uke. Ueshiba is closer to 30 degrees off the line.

Now, a few things we do know. You can't let air out of something that doesn't have air in it. And you can't inflate something that has, at least to some degree, been partially deflated. You also can't inflate something if you have no desire to do so. Or if you've been taught to deflate it and discard it.

From everything I've seen of DR, they really do initially shock uke - like putting a nail in a tire. And from there, they pretty much destroy it. And there's always that last "fuck you, you're dead" chop in DR.

To me, Ueshiba does seem to be developing aikido here. Because, while he recieves uke, Ueshiba has enough breath for both of them. So, Ueshiba's saying, "Hey, even though you come at me with a fucked up attitude, not only am I'm not afraid that you're going to take my breath, but here - let me give you some good clean breath so you can be made whole again, and go about your business. And maybe with a little better attitude.

If we're looking for "roots" I'd say Ueshiba was showing more CMA than DR. CMA has Aiki. DR didn't have Aiki - even in it's name - until Ueshiba used it and Takeda coped it.

Ueshiba shows a clear progression to an art that gives life rather than takes it.

Dan Richards - Aiki Research

"Budo must always reflect its surroundings. If it isn't newer and stronger, it isn't valid." - Shoji Nishio
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:34 PM   #5
Chris Li
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
If we're looking for "roots" I'd say Ueshiba was showing more CMA than DR. CMA has Aiki. DR didn't have Aiki - even in it's name - until Ueshiba used it and Takeda coped it.
Dan, that's just incorrect - there are written instances of the word "Aiki" in Daito-ryu from before Ueshiba ever met Takeda.

Takeda used it, Ueshiba copied it - and went his own way, which is fine, but it's important to get the order correct.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:48 PM   #6
Dan Richards
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Chris, there are enough reputable sources that cite Ueshiba and possibly even Onisaburo as having a hand in the term Aiki.

http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/bio/mori2.html
http://www.eastbayaikido.com/article...ameaikido.html
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/4081/1/4081_1600.pdf?UkUDh:CyT

If you've got something else, please enlighten us. History's a funny thing. And there are countless stories of artists of all types who meet up, swirl things around a bit, learn from each other, and then each go on their own way. Each of them taking with them whatever works. And part of what works are the stories that are created around them.

The fact that Big Earl and Curly Joe were both around during a time when a new expression of an art form was being birthed; and whether Earl or Joe came up with the term - let's pick one - "the Louisiana slide" - really, in the end, is not that important. What is important is less about who did what - because all these guys have their own stories that appear to favor their own side - and more about what we have available to use today, and what we decide we want to employ.

Whether Tesla or Edison came up with various technologies is much less relevant than the fact that those technologies exist and can be utilized and further developed. And if you think people go back and forth with the developments of AC and DC electricity, and who did what - just look into the history of something like barbecue sauce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue_sauce - a veritable clusterfuck of claims and stories and people and methods.

I added some life into this thread. I think my observations - which are also based on my own direct experiences - are valid. You zoomed in and popped a tire and ran off. How about breathing some life into it. If you've got more info on Aiki, I, for one, would be up for hearing it.

Dan Richards - Aiki Research

"Budo must always reflect its surroundings. If it isn't newer and stronger, it isn't valid." - Shoji Nishio
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Chris, there are enough reputable sources that cite Ueshiba and possibly even Onisaburo as having a hand in the term Aiki.
You're talking about Aiki in use as a part of the name of the art. The term Aiki was in use in Daito-ryu prior to that - there are written notes by Horikawa Taiso and Sagawa Nenokichi from 1913 using that term, before Ueshiba ever met Takeda.

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I added some life into this thread. I think my observations - which are also based on my own direct experiences - are valid. You zoomed in and popped a tire and ran off. How about breathing some life into it. If you've got more info on Aiki, I, for one, would be up for hearing it.
Nothing wrong with breathing life - but facts are facts. Ueshiba didn't invent or originate Aiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #8
Marc Abrams
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Chris, there are enough reputable sources that cite Ueshiba and possibly even Onisaburo as having a hand in the term Aiki.

http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/bio/mori2.html
http://www.eastbayaikido.com/article...ameaikido.html
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/4081/1/4081_1600.pdf?UkUDh:CyT

If you've got something else, please enlighten us. History's a funny thing. And there are countless stories of artists of all types who meet up, swirl things around a bit, learn from each other, and then each go on their own way. Each of them taking with them whatever works. And part of what works are the stories that are created around them.

The fact that Big Earl and Curly Joe were both around during a time when a new expression of an art form was being birthed; and whether Earl or Joe came up with the term - let's pick one - "the Louisiana slide" - really, in the end, is not that important. What is important is less about who did what - because all these guys have their own stories that appear to favor their own side - and more about what we have available to use today, and what we decide we want to employ.

Whether Tesla or Edison came up with various technologies is much less relevant than the fact that those technologies exist and can be utilized and further developed. And if you think people go back and forth with the developments of AC and DC electricity, and who did what - just look into the history of something like barbecue sauce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue_sauce - a veritable clusterfuck of claims and stories and people and methods.

I added some life into this thread. I think my observations - which are also based on my own direct experiences - are valid. You zoomed in and popped a tire and ran off. How about breathing some life into it. If you've got more info on Aiki, I, for one, would be up for hearing it.
Dan:

You might want to do a little research on Chris Li before you chew down on too much of your feet...... Start off with the blogs that Chris Li has written. Oh, by the way, Chris is a professional translator and has done so for the current Doshu. His unique position as a very experienced Aikidoka, along with his phenomenal translating skills place him in a position better than most when it comes to subjects related directly to Aikido and it's origins. Then again, if you would like a shot at translating the original Japanese that were cited in your references, with your own versions, then you might gain a tiny bit more credibility in what you think that you are talking about.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:23 PM   #9
Dan Richards
 
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You're talking about Aiki in use as a part of the name of the art.
Yes, I was.
Quote:
Ueshiba didn't invent or originate Aiki.
Yes, I was aware of that, too.

What I was pointing out was that uke, in both pictures, look quite different. Sagawa appears to be deflating his uke. Ueshiba appears to be inflating uke. Both using fire, so to speak. One to burn the house down. The other to start a campfire and roast marshmellows.

[ BTW, Marc, I'm quite aware who Chris is. That's why I asked him.]

Dan Richards - Aiki Research

"Budo must always reflect its surroundings. If it isn't newer and stronger, it isn't valid." - Shoji Nishio
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:52 PM   #10
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Kokyu - Ueshiba vs. Sagawa

Looks to me like Sagawa is using aiki-sage to capture and control his uke's centers of mass and balance, and Ueshiba is using aiki-age to do same. Photos can't provide much information, but it's the impression I got, FWIW. Aiki-sage does involve a certain degree of compression, but "inflation" and "deflation" or "pressurization" and "depressurization" are not terms applicable to aiki, at least not in the sense that they have been used in this thread.
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