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Old 03-22-2013, 08:22 AM   #26
phitruong
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
just learn bit by bit the five minds of budo and how they apply in Aikido. All else to do with mindsets is pretty irrelevant to me.
five minds of budo? is that eating, drinking, dancing, partying and carousing? wait, some of those might be redundant. maybe if throwing - becoming public nuisance after a night of partying and carousing?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:49 AM   #27
hughrbeyer
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

Okay, having dumped satisfactorily on the stupid initial quite, maybe it's worthwhile mining it for the kernel of truth it holds.

"Predator" is maybe wrong. But in a physical encounter, on the mat or off, you can't be tentative. You can't see what happens. You have to be absolutely without doubt that, whatever happens to the other guy, you're going to be on your feet at the end.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:03 AM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
five minds of budo? is that eating, drinking, dancing, partying and carousing? wait, some of those might be redundant. maybe if throwing - becoming public nuisance after a night of partying and carousing?
Ha, ha, very good. Now which mind did that come from?

Peace.G.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:06 AM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Okay, having dumped satisfactorily on the stupid initial quite, maybe it's worthwhile mining it for the kernel of truth it holds.

"Predator" is maybe wrong. But in a physical encounter, on the mat or off, you can't be tentative. You can't see what happens. You have to be absolutely without doubt that, whatever happens to the other guy, you're going to be on your feet at the end.
Or maybe whatever happens in the end we're both gonna be o.k.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:21 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Jaredd Wilson wrote: View Post
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.
While I truly dislike the term predator for the reasons others have already expressed, there is something about how one "does one's thing" during certain types of confrontations (as in a full blown "we're fighting for our safety/lives now" scenario). It's been a while since I read the referenced work, but my take on it wasn't that one becomes a predator or all out aggressive, but a recognition of the concepts brought out with vastly more clarity by Colonel John Boyd with his notion of the OODA loop in combat. Be it flying a jet or coming to blows with an empty handed attacker.

Wikipedia has a superficial but relatively useful section on the topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

Back to the shadows for me.

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Old 03-22-2013, 10:06 AM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
'Predator mindset' = track down, stalk, pounce, and kill... That's basically an assassin, which is stretching the concept of 'self defense' to an Orwellian degree.

An analogy I've heard that I like better is a cornered cat. Like the intro on this website (www.corneredcat.com - I'm not actually into guns, but if was, seems like a decent website).
.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:44 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

I'm glad William posted that comment. Honestly, the modern romanticization of the word "predator" absolutely gives me a rash. A predator is an animal that kills to eat, not in self-defense, and certainly not because it's bored or drunk or wants to dominate or is just feeling mean. If you're going to engage in aggressive behavior, then own your reasons for doing so, and don't try to dress it up in a sexy label.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:32 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Mind is not spirit. That's basically why not. Mindset is mind therefor mental.

Peace.G.
Mind/body/spirit/more are all one ... otherwise there is trouble. Are you advocating creating trouble by insisting on separating mind/spirit?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 03-22-2013, 11:36 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative. Is a lion evil-not-good-worthy-of-judgement for hunting gazelles, wolves stalking deer, sharks eating seals etc. etc. In my mind, being a predator and having a predator's mindset who hunts to maintain his own life is very different from a murderer or one with a murderous intent.

Recently, I was on the sidewalk about 10 feet in front of my apartment around 11 PM on a Sunday night, when I noticed 2 guys walking down the street towards me. I took note of them and continued smoking my cigarette (have since quit - again). When they were within about 20 feet of my the smaller of the 2 dudes (5'9 average sized guy) moves into the street and starts circling to my front asking non-sense questions while his large (I'm not a small guy and this dude looked like all he's done for 35 years was swing a sledgehammer) friend hugged the inside of the sidewalk and started to circle toward my back. As he did this, I circled keeping the smaller guy in between me and big guy and kept telling them the liquor store was closed (they didn't seem/act drunk and frankly appeared to be just trying to distract me) and this whole time the big guys keeps trying to get behind me and I just kept circling, kept myself ready for anything, but didn't back down. Eventually, there came a sort of moment of truth where they had to decide if they wanted to try to jump a fully aware person without the cheap shot/bear hug from behind they had planned and they ended up walking away.

I would say this was due to what could be called a predator's mindset(warrior's intent I called it shortly after the incident). There was sort of a "I see you" moment where they saw that I wasn't prey I had claws, teeth, fangs and fist and while they might ultimately win it wasn't worth it and moved along. To me, this is in the spirit of Aikido - I don't recall who said it or where, but I believe there's a saying with regard to Aikido where you can defeat your opponent with a glance. Which in a way sort of happened, if I had been meek, defensive, and prey-like there's no doubt in my mind they would have jumped me and either they or I or more likely both, would have come out worse for wear.

That being said, I'm totally in awe of how I actually pulled it off, adrenaline was pumping, heart racing, but I was able to keep a mask of calm-equanimity, at least until they were 100 yards away and I was safe inside shaking with adrenaline for like 5 hours. It's a weird thing how training can kick in when you least expect it.

FYI only been doing Aikido for a few months but have trained a different martial art for a couple of years.

Last edited by TAMANinja : 03-22-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:40 AM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Mind/body/spirit/more are all one ... otherwise there is trouble. Are you advocating creating trouble by insisting on separating mind/spirit?
Roof, doors, windows, walls are all part of one house. I advocate walking through the door and looking through the windows or you will find yourself in trouble.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:45 PM   #36
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I don't see any time or place where being predator is the most loving thing to do Lynn.
Then you have certainly lived a nicer life than I have.

A predator may be protective of the people they love by going after the people who may threaten them.

Ask any soldier/veteran.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:16 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

Quote:
Jaredd Wilson wrote: View Post
In "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller (a very sobering book by the way, and well worth the read), he describes the most important mental feature in a survival situation is having a Predator Mindset. The Predator Mindset is an all-out aggressive do what I need to survive mindset. Sort of turn the mental tables on an attacker, make them defensive. I agree with this in principle, but how does this fit into aikido? Can you have "aggressive aikido" and still call it aikido? Does it become aikijutsu then?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. I've been wrestling with this for a couple days now, and would like to have other aikidouka (or aikidoist if you've read the other thread) weigh in.
I haven't read the whole thread yet so please forgive me for any redundancy.
While I haven't read the book, I've heard similar ideas about who tends to survive in an emergency and regardless of the connotations we might include with the term "Predator," it's this self-protective mindset which I'm guessing is being addressed. I think "doing what I need to survive" is different than "doing what I want to survive," and that difference of intention might be the difference between Aikido and non-Aikido responses to a situation (to be clear: not that anything non-Aikido would be in the "wanting to" category).
My own personal view, incomplete though it may be, is that there might be cases where I would choose to hurt someone. I wouldn't want to, but if it meant the safety of my kids, for example, I would technically want to disable multiple attackers (as a somewhat extreme example) in the quickest way possible. If I didn't perceive a need and wanted to, then it doesn't sound like Ueshiba Aikido as I've come to perceive it.
For me, the moral nature of this question puts it firmly in the spiritual realm. When we stare long into the abyss (e.g. contemplate violence and prepare for its potentiality) what are we doing? How do we consider these things without being shaped by them in a negative way? Isn't that somewhat the essence of reconciling violence: reconciling it (the impulses which give rise to it) within yourself first?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:49 PM   #38
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Then you have certainly lived a nicer life than I have.

A predator may be protective of the people they love by going after the people who may threaten them.

Ask any soldier/veteran.
Ask any paranoid, that's what they do.

Protection is protection and hunting is hunting, one is not the other. Actually you should know as you have had to pick up the pieces of those war vets with mental problems. They too thought 'predator' was right.

Going to meet and face the enemy doesn't equal hunting. The enemy only hides when you he thinks your out to harm. So if you go find the enemy and change his mind then there's no enemy, just friends. Or even Aikido

Peace.G.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #39
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

Quote:
David Kelliher wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative. Is a lion evil-not-good-worthy-of-judgement for hunting gazelles, wolves stalking deer, sharks eating seals etc. etc. In my mind, being a predator and having a predator's mindset who hunts to maintain his own life is very different from a murderer or one with a murderous intent.

Recently, I was on the sidewalk about 10 feet in front of my apartment around 11 PM on a Sunday night, when I noticed 2 guys walking down the street towards me. I took note of them and continued smoking my cigarette (have since quit - again). When they were within about 20 feet of my the smaller of the 2 dudes (5'9 average sized guy) moves into the street and starts circling to my front asking non-sense questions while his large (I'm not a small guy and this dude looked like all he's done for 35 years was swing a sledgehammer) friend hugged the inside of the sidewalk and started to circle toward my back. As he did this, I circled keeping the smaller guy in between me and big guy and kept telling them the liquor store was closed (they didn't seem/act drunk and frankly appeared to be just trying to distract me) and this whole time the big guys keeps trying to get behind me and I just kept circling, kept myself ready for anything, but didn't back down. Eventually, there came a sort of moment of truth where they had to decide if they wanted to try to jump a fully aware person without the cheap shot/bear hug from behind they had planned and they ended up walking away.

I would say this was due to what could be called a predator's mindset(warrior's intent I called it shortly after the incident). There was sort of a "I see you" moment where they saw that I wasn't prey I had claws, teeth, fangs and fist and while they might ultimately win it wasn't worth it and moved along. To me, this is in the spirit of Aikido - I don't recall who said it or where, but I believe there's a saying with regard to Aikido where you can defeat your opponent with a glance. Which in a way sort of happened, if I had been meek, defensive, and prey-like there's no doubt in my mind they would have jumped me and either they or I or more likely both, would have come out worse for wear.
.
Great action and example. And I've done this type of thing many times in the decades before I came to aikido (New Yorker). But I don't equate RECOGNIZING predators and using body language to deter them with BEING or CHANNELING the spirit of a predator. Two different things.

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Actually you should know as you have had to pick up the pieces of those war vets with mental problems. They too thought 'predator' was right.
I am one of those predators!

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:01 PM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I am one of those predators!
Am or was?
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:11 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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David Kelliher wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that a solid number of people seem to find the term predator and judge it as a negative.
I believe your reading is incorrect. I, at least, find nothing negative in the term "predator"; it's the common usage of the term that I find objectionable. People romanticize the predators of the animal world (frequently mis-identifying them - sharks, for example, are arguably much more scavengers than predators), and then apply the term "predator" to humans given to aggression whose methods and motives are entirely different. That's the problem.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:24 PM   #43
Basia Halliop
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

I don't have any negative connotations with hunting - humans do act as predators when we track and hunt, e.g., where I grew up some people hunted deer and brought home the meat for their families.

Predation of humans towards other humans is assassination, though. People can and do make moral arguments that there are times when assassination is justifiable and prevents a much greater harm (for example in some wartime scenarios), but it's a very specific form of aggression, different from other kinds of aggression and different from a survival instinct or hyperawareness or single mindedness.

I don't like to see words thrown around seemingly at random. It just causes confusion and is misleading.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:54 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

The thread started with the question of predator mindset in Aikido. In Aikido? No.

Now I would say that was also a message given by O'Sensei.

First let me say this: Some so far have said either that they have been a predator or brought up with those who hunt deer or whatever. We are in a world where hunting is part of life or a big part of some peoples lives. So you can say you have no negative connotations to it or that it's 'normal' or even survival in certain circumstances but does that make it good or even right?

I say no myself.

Here's an interesting look for those interested. I'll use history in this little 'story'.

Way back when humans were pretty dumb they were basically hunter gatherers. This predator mindset was the way of survival and as usual used for war too and taking lands etc. However, at certain times in history, even the times of great change and advancement in Japan for example in as far as civilization and harmonious progress are concerned we find the cause of this explosion of positive change being not war or anything from that mindset but from new ways of farming. New ways of doing things which benefited everyone. There lie the great changes.

A fella by the name of Buddha came along once and brought a new way of looking at things along with a new way of behaving and that soon spread across more than a third of the world and brought an explosion of more harmonious and civilized progress for humans. One religion which spread and influenced for the better yet with a difference.....it didn't spread by war or conquest or that type of mindset.

Just sayin

Peace.G.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:15 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Way back when humans were pretty dumb they were basically hunter gatherers.
Please stick to your own experience. Your grasp of anthropology is plainly limited.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:24 PM   #46
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Please stick to your own experience. Your grasp of anthropology is plainly limited.
You think so? The humanities......I have quite a grasp on that subject thank you and it includes the subject of the history of inhumanities.

Humans were very dumb and as yet are still quite dumb. Lucky things like Aikido come along to show there are better ways of doing things.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:13 AM   #47
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I believe your reading is incorrect. I, at least, find nothing negative in the term "predator"; it's the common usage of the term that I find objectionable. People romanticize the predators of the animal world (frequently mis-identifying them - sharks, for example, are arguably much more scavengers than predators), and then apply the term "predator" to humans given to aggression whose methods and motives are entirely different. That's the problem.
Yup ...and lets be clear and call a spade a spade here. Most predators in Nature attack the weak, sick, injured and vulnerable. They use Ambush tactics and try to overwhelm their prey. For them it's not only about life and death...it's about their next meal. There is absolutely no nobility to it that I can see.

Martial Awareness and the spirit of Budo as expressed in Aikido and other Martial Arts is a higher ethical bar which only uses killing as an absolute last resort.

As related in the story above; It was this Martial Awareness that kept our friend out of trouble and his attackers who used the "predator mindset". Like all predators in nature when confronted with something other than easy prey they moved on, even though they had superior numbers, and appeared to have a size and strength advantage.

This is the great gift of any Budo/Martial practice. To be able see respond and neutralize any "attack" as soon as the predator makes their intentions known, without any escalation into conflict. I can't tell you how many times this gift has worked for me. It can be as simple as seeing an aggressive driver in your rear view mirror and letting them cut into the lane in front of you, or seeing the fear behind the anger in a man, connecting with him, and restoring harmony.

I can only hope that through your own practice you come to discover this gift for yourself.

William Hazen
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:20 AM   #48
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

The term "predator mindset" was specifically selected to contraindicate a "prey mindset". I am guessing that the people who are taking a trip down pedantic lane have not actually read Rory Miller's texts.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:24 AM   #49
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
For them it's not only about life and death...it's about their next meal. There is absolutely no nobility to it that I can see.
100% organic and natural. All perfectly normal and in total alignment with the will of the kami. Fully imbrued with nobility. I see it all around. Different strokes ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:39 AM   #50
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Re: Aikido Predator Mindset

Me, I'm going for a "moose mindset". No one screws with a moose.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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