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Old 03-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #26
Malicat
Dojo: Sei-Ryo, Flat Rock, NC
Location: Hendersonville, NC
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 133
United_States
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

I am honestly of the opinion that anyone who is capable of pondering sexual relations while on the mat isn't working out hard enough. I am entirely too busy worrying about making sure that I am relaxed and not using muscle, and I am finishing my throws in a stable position to worry about romantic intentions towards any of my partners, or of my partners' possible romantic intentions towards me. Less talk, more training.

Quote:
Krystal Locke wrote: View Post
Y'all know I'm gay, right?
And Krystal, I'd love to train with you, and I have no issues changing in front of you, but as your miniprofile says Oregon, I am not certain I am able to allow you the right to use the word "y'all"!

--Ashley
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:13 PM   #27
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,649
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I will answer in reverse order, since that may help. The presence of a homosexual in the dojo raises the issue of homosexual behavior. Just as the presence of heterosexuals raises the issue of heterosexual behavior (defined in a similar fashion, but between opposite sexes). For me and my dojo, I express the same concern for both issues. I think you are creating a straw argument to show that sexual conduct in the dojo is OK for some and not OK for others. It isn't; and even if you pointed to 10 dojos who all have engaged in this misconduct, it would not change the stance our dojo takes, it would simply identify 10 dojos who are potentially breaking the law by not addressing sexual harassment in the dojo.
Hi Jon,

Well, here's the thing. There's sexuality. There's identity. And there's sexual behavior. Those are three different things -- connected, obviously, but they're not one and the same. The essay that began this thread was about identity: about an athlete identifying as gay. It addressed the fact that people often (and against all reason) take issue with gay identity, in part because they conflate gay identity with sexual behavior - and moreover, with sexual behavior that does not respect boundaries or concern itself with consent. Someone's gay? Well, we can't be having them in our locker room, because gay identity equals inappropriate sexual behavior -- or at a minimum, automatic suspicion of same -- and we can't be having that.

Taking the discussion into the realm of sexual harassment and inappropriate sexual behavior is the reddest of herrings. Who was talking about that, and why is it suddenly raised when the people in question are gay? You say that you have equal concern for inappropriate heterosexual contact, yet I have to wonder. Do you scrutinize every new (presumed) heterosexual dojo member to make sure that, in the close physical contact of aikido, they don't cross the line? Whenever a heterosexual member joins your dojo, do you say to yourself, "Oh boy, here comes a heterosexual, we've got to look out"?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Finally, these comments keep pulling into the discussion of gay rights, which I am attempting to avoid. I do not believe aikido dojos are/should be a political forum. Religion and politics... Religion and politics...
If the word "politics" raises a rash, try using the phrase "human rights" instead. It's closer to the truth, after all - and I fail to see how human rights become irrelevant when we cross the dojo threshold. I know, you've proclaimed that everybody is equal in your dojo. Perhaps that's true. But members of the dominant group who make such claims on behalf of those less privileged are justly regarded with skepticism.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:06 AM   #28
ryback
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Well in modern society and in the past as well, there are pre-set social or religious concepts about the role and the bahaviour of the two sexes. The problem is that these concepts are not necessarily according to the human biology are more of a set of ideas and prejudices past from one generation to the next one.
So we end up in a world where women act as "women should" and men act as "men should" but nobody acts as a real, free human being any more.
In that manner, only a little worse, we are surrounded by homosexuals who are doing their best to show the rest of us that they are homosexuals and act according to some pre-set ideas about how they should act.
They feel they should act as a suppresed minority (and sometimes minorities have a more combact kind of strength), they must have gay parades, they must have people representing them like the president of the homosexuals or things like that and of course they must have (most times on purpose) the "gay body language", like a neon light above their heads saying "i'm gay"!
The concept of Aikido is one of oneness of blending and of living in harmony, that's why i always try to find things that connect me with other people regardless of their choices. I have worked with homosexuals and soon i found out that no matter how i was trying to avoid the subject, they would always bring it back on.
When i talk with women, they don't talk about sleeping with men. When i talk with men, they don't talk about their intimate moments with women it's just personal isn't it? Being gay is just a personal choice of a sexual partner, so why do homosexuals want to reflect that kind of thing all the time?
I don't believe that there would be any real problem if one was to train in the Dojo with a homosexual, we train with opposite sexes don't we? But i think that sometimes there can be an awkward kind of moment because in their tendency to overemphasize that part of their lives sometimes they can be insulting or too bold or provocative. Aikido has a lot of body contact so one should be realy mature and respecting.
Don't get me wrong, i have no problem with gay people and their choices, maybe they do.
When was the last "straight parade"? Who is the president of straight people? Straight people don't have such things because they blend into society, why do homosexuals want so desperately to stand out, and then moan about it?
Why do we have this thread if there is no issue? So all these people here are devoting all this energy and time to write about a non-issue?
I don't think so...
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:28 AM   #29
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Yannis - For someone that claims that he does not have any problems with gay people, you sure seem to have some issues with gay people.

Last edited by grondahl : 03-11-2013 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:18 AM   #30
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 338
England
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Well in modern society and in the past as well, there are pre-set social or religious concepts about the role and the bahaviour of the two sexes. The problem is that these concepts are not necessarily according to the human biology are more of a set of ideas and prejudices past from one generation to the next one.
So we end up in a world where women act as "women should" and men act as "men should" but nobody acts as a real, free human being any more.
In that manner, only a little worse, we are surrounded by homosexuals who are doing their best to show the rest of us that they are homosexuals and act according to some pre-set ideas about how they should act.
They feel they should act as a suppresed minority (and sometimes minorities have a more combact kind of strength), they must have gay parades, they must have people representing them like the president of the homosexuals or things like that and of course they must have (most times on purpose) the "gay body language", like a neon light above their heads saying "i'm gay"!
The concept of Aikido is one of oneness of blending and of living in harmony, that's why i always try to find things that connect me with other people regardless of their choices. I have worked with homosexuals and soon i found out that no matter how i was trying to avoid the subject, they would always bring it back on.
When i talk with women, they don't talk about sleeping with men. When i talk with men, they don't talk about their intimate moments with women it's just personal isn't it? Being gay is just a personal choice of a sexual partner, so why do homosexuals want to reflect that kind of thing all the time?
I don't believe that there would be any real problem if one was to train in the Dojo with a homosexual, we train with opposite sexes don't we? But i think that sometimes there can be an awkward kind of moment because in their tendency to overemphasize that part of their lives sometimes they can be insulting or too bold or provocative. Aikido has a lot of body contact so one should be realy mature and respecting.
Don't get me wrong, i have no problem with gay people and their choices, maybe they do.
When was the last "straight parade"? Who is the president of straight people? Straight people don't have such things because they blend into society, why do homosexuals want so desperately to stand out, and then moan about it?
Why do we have this thread if there is no issue? So all these people here are devoting all this energy and time to write about a non-issue?
I don't think so...
I certainly have never experienced people drawing my attention to their homosexuality in the dojo, even though I regularly practise with several men I know to be gay. Now I come to think about it, one guy did ask me if I wanted a "private practice" with him after a course I attended with Kanetsuka Sensei in Athens a few years ago. Perhaps this is a Greek thing?

When you belittle "gay rights", you should be aware that in "western" societies homosexual behaviour has only been decriminalised in the last few decades, and in many parts of the world men (mainly) and women are routinely imprisoned, persecuted and in many cases killed because their sexual orientation is revealed.

Alex
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:59 AM   #31
ryback
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Yannis - For someone that claims that he does not have any problems with gay people, you sure seem to have some issues with gay people.
I know that it may sound like that, but i trully have no problem with them.
I have met gay people that were respectful and they kept their homosexuality for their bed, but that was a minority.
Most of them were overacting all of their homosexuality in order to emphasize it.
I never met one in the dojo, at least not that i know of. But if one was trying to be disrespectful towards me during practice that would really make me sad, isn't that logical?
If a woman would be offended because a guy in the dojo touched her in a disrespectful manner,would that mean she has an issue with the male gender?
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #32
ryback
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I certainly have never experienced people drawing my attention to their homosexuality in the dojo, even though I regularly practise with several men I know to be gay. Now I come to think about it, one guy did ask me if I wanted a "private practice" with him after a course I attended with Kanetsuka Sensei in Athens a few years ago. Perhaps this is a Greek thing?

When you belittle "gay rights", you should be aware that in "western" societies homosexual behaviour has only been decriminalised in the last few decades, and in many parts of the world men (mainly) and women are routinely imprisoned, persecuted and in many cases killed because their sexual orientation is revealed.

Alex
I have never experienced that in the dojo either, but i have in other aspects of life.
Perhaps my name indicates that i'm from Greece but the truth is that although that is my country of origin, my influences are from all around the world, so when i say something, it's never just a"greek thing"
My post had to do with the hypothetical chance of a gay being insulting in a dojo environment. From my experience in other walks of life, there is always that potential, of course that doesn't mean that every homosexual would do that, i was simply dealing with that potential.
So my point is that, since the potential is there, the issue is also there.
It is obviously wrong to belittle the gay rights or any other human rights, and countries that imprison or kill people because of their sexual orientation are a disgrace to the human race.
People should be free to make their own choices in personal matters, but never forget that other people have their choices made too, so they should respect that.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:45 AM   #33
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,649
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
The concept of Aikido is one of oneness of blending and of living in harmony, that's why i always try to find things that connect me with other people regardless of their choices. I have worked with homosexuals and soon i found out that no matter how i was trying to avoid the subject, they would always bring it back on.
Whereas your heterosexual coworkers, friends, neighbors and family members never, ever mention their spouses, lovers, significant others. None of your heterosexual coworkers have pictures of their spouses on their desks. When you invite your heterosexual acquaintances out for drinks, they never bring their opposite-sex partners along, so you're not constantly having your face rubbed in their heterosexuality. You never see heterosexuals walking down the street hand in hand with their opposite-sex partners. You never see a depiction of heterosexuals in advertising or on a billboard that makes it flagrantly obvious that they're heterosexual. When you see heterosexuals on TV or in the movies, their heterosexuality never comes up at all - you never have to see them kissing, or holding hands, or a suggestion that they might (yick!) make love. Why, you don't even have to try to avoid the subject of heterosexuality - heterosexuals are so discreet and circumspect, it never ever comes up!

You know, if those pushy homosexuals could only learn from heterosexuals, and stop trying to force their lifestyle on everyone, the world would be a much better place, wouldn't it? All full of oneness of blending and of living in harmony and all that.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:39 AM   #34
akiy
 
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Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: The Great Non-Issue

Hi folks,

Again, please make sure to discuss this topic explicitly in reference to aikido. Otherwise, please break your discusion off into the Open Discussion forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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