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Old 03-05-2013, 02:29 AM   #26
Alex Megann
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Re: The Empty Body

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Koichi Tohei, Morihei Ueshiba, Kodo Horikawa, Yukiyoshi Sagawa, etc. all demonstrated what were essentially very similiar things. Where are the Tempukai guys demonstrating those things?

Tohei later claimed to have learned little from Ueshiba - but I wonder if that was true, or it was just part of the dance of hurt feelings that went back and forth among the involved parties.

It was my impression that the Tempukai provided the framework through which Tohei understood (as much as he did) Ueshiba's "stuff", not that it provided the "stuff" itself, but opinions will certainly vary.

Best,

Chris
I stand corrected. Perhaps I have been confused by what Tohei himself said after the messy split from the Aikikai.

It is fascinating, though, that many aikido teachers have found deeper understanding of what they were taught through training with other teachers. One example that springs to mind is how the kesa-giri of Kashima Shinryu profoundly influenced Yamaguchi Sensei's aikido (and that of his students). Also perhaps Tamura Sensei's latterday exposure to Tetsuzan Kuroda, as described in Leo Tamaki's article.

Alex
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:14 AM   #27
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

I like the idea of the empty body...goes along with the empty mind and no weight on your feet.

Which fit perfectly with being very heavy and full of potential.

I also like the idea of uke being in the space that in less than a second I will be in.

I like the idea of blending and turning and entering as though uke is nothing and yet everything.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #28
Dan Richards
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I like the idea of the empty body...goes along with the empty mind and no weight on your feet.

Which fit perfectly with being very heavy and full of potential.

I also like the idea of uke being in the space that in less than a second I will be in.

I like the idea of blending and turning and entering as though uke is nothing and yet everything.
Hi Mary, what do you think about playing with this idea: How and why would you be - or want to be - "very heavy" when the body and mind are empty? How about being "light." Being full of light - instead of "potential."

Also, rather than moving into a space that uke occupies, you create a new space. A space where you both can exist in harmony. Uke is creating a space that says you have something they want, and the only way to get it is to come and kick your booty - and deprive you of your space and your booty. But you can create a space in which everyone gets what they really want. Love. Harmony. Peace. And ice cream and cake and party hats.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:55 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

I find when you are empty you yourself are very light yet heavy to others. Probably what was meant....

Peace.G.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:58 PM   #30
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Hi Mary, what do you think about playing with this idea: How and why would you be - or want to be - "very heavy" when the body and mind are empty? How about being "light." Being full of light - instead of "potential."

Also, rather than moving into a space that uke occupies, you create a new space. A space where you both can exist in harmony. Uke is creating a space that says you have something they want, and the only way to get it is to come and kick your booty - and deprive you of your space and your booty. But you can create a space in which everyone gets what they really want. Love. Harmony. Peace. And ice cream and cake and party hats.
Ummm... maybe on some days,other days that is a little to fluffy... maybe other days I like what I said.

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Old 03-05-2013, 10:47 PM   #31
graham christian
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Re: The Empty Body

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Koichi Tohei got a lot of his training methods from the Tempukai, and invented the rest as a result of being challenged in Hawaii, as Yoshimitsu Yamada recounts here. He didn't "get them" from ShinShin Toitsu, though - they were ShinShin Toitsu!

The consensus seems to be that he took rather little of his training methods from O-Sensei.

Alex
I think somethings lost in translation there. The mind and body coordination principles he did get from shin shin toitsu do. His Aikido principles based on those then he created. Two different things.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:16 PM   #32
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Empty Body

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think somethings lost in translation there. The mind and body coordination principles he did get from shin shin toitsu do. His Aikido principles based on those then he created. Two different things.

Peace.G.
I think that it's clear that Tohei felt that much of Tempu's work elucidated what he had seen from Ueshiba.

OTOH, coordination of body and mind is a phrasing that predates Tohei's involvement with the Tempukai, and even predates Tohei - Ueshiba mentioned it several times in the 1938 manual Budo (in the very same context that Tohei used it in), which was published two years before Tohei even started Aikido.

What's your source for arguing that those principles came from Tempu and Tempu alone?

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-05-2013, 11:54 PM   #33
graham christian
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Re: The Empty Body

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I think that it's clear that Tohei felt that much of Tempu's work elucidated what he had seen from Ueshiba.

OTOH, coordination of body and mind is a phrasing that predates Tohei's involvement with the Tempukai, and even predates Tohei - Ueshiba mentioned it several times in the 1938 manual Budo (in the very same context that Tohei used it in), which was published two years before Tohei even started Aikido.

What's your source for arguing that those principles came from Tempu and Tempu alone?

Best,

Chris
Ahh, come on Chris, you know me, I'm not into your kind of debating, don't have that sort of mind.

Call it mind and body coordination or unification or whatever else fits. Point out Someone else said it before him and I'll say someone else said it way back when and that would be true also.

So I would be honored if you wouldn't say I said 'alone'. Plus I don't use the word Tempu either.

Nothing can be equated with 'alone' in this world so I don't get where you're coming from.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:28 AM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Empty Body

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahh, come on Chris, you know me, I'm not into your kind of debating, don't have that sort of mind.

Call it mind and body coordination or unification or whatever else fits. Point out Someone else said it before him and I'll say someone else said it way back when and that would be true also.

So I would be honored if you wouldn't say I said 'alone'. Plus I don't use the word Tempu either.

Nothing can be equated with 'alone' in this world so I don't get where you're coming from.

Peace.G.
Where I'm coming from is that you stated that Tohei got certain things from somewhere specific. If you don't want to argue that when someone calls you on it, then don't make the statement.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-06-2013, 01:49 AM   #35
graham christian
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Re: The Empty Body

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Where I'm coming from is that you stated that Tohei got certain things from somewhere specific. If you don't want to argue that when someone calls you on it, then don't make the statement.

Best,

Chris
O.K. Chris. I am coming from understanding. I find the 'call you out' approach strange. I do so in life too, I usually smile at such things and walk away.

I suggest you study and practice some shin shin toitsu do, go to some classes and then come back to me and tell me about how they practice those principles, how they test them and use them.

Nothing to do with 'sources' , no argument.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:17 AM   #36
Gary David
 
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Re: The Empty Body

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. Chris. I am coming from understanding. I find the 'call you out' approach strange. I do so in life too, I usually smile at such things and walk away.

I suggest you study and practice some shin shin toitsu do, go to some classes and then come back to me and tell me about how they practice those principles, how they test them and use them.

Nothing to do with 'sources' , no argument.

Peace.G.
Graham
Chris Li comes from the Islands were Tohei was King for a long time. Most of the early Aikido folks that Chris learned from were Tohei trained........so Chris likely knows, has felt, has practiced, has been the principles that you talk to as your source at some time during his many years of training.

I took ukemi for Tohei Sensei more than once here in California when he came to our dojo to teach an even class for just the dojo. I have felt and trained with several of the instructors who came with him, some from Japan and others from Hawaii. Tohei was a very powerful individual, was like running into a wall, was like a moving solid sphere, his movement produced results from that turning sphere. It worked for him, it was very effective on us and none of the folks that came with him were like that.

I did all the ki exercises......I could do them at the level they were being presented and taught.......As I reflect back now I was not taught the steps needed to find motion in stillness or stillness in motion. I was not taught how to establish up and down...side to side or front to back stability. It was not presented. I was told to keep one point...not taught the steps to get there. I moved on.

It has only come to me lately as a gift that maintaing one point is really pulling out from center in all directions and learning how to maintain that. Solo practice with paired practice to check your progress.

It was never about Tohei not having something....rather it was about how it was passed along.

Just me.......fish or cut bait.....

Gary
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:34 AM   #37
Cady Goldfield
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Re: The Empty Body

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
I took ukemi for Tohei Sensei more than once here in California when he came to our dojo to teach an even class for just the dojo. I have felt and trained with several of the instructors who came with him, some from Japan and others from Hawaii. Tohei was a very powerful individual, was like running into a wall, was like a moving solid sphere, his movement produced results from that turning sphere. It worked for him, it was very effective on us and none of the folks that came with him were like that.
Please pardon the off-topica aside, but...
This sounds like it should be part of an "It Had to Be Felt" entry over in Mr. Amdur's department.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:39 AM   #38
Marc Abrams
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Re: The Empty Body

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
Chris Li comes from the Islands were Tohei was King for a long time. Most of the early Aikido folks that Chris learned from were Tohei trained........so Chris likely knows, has felt, has practiced, has been the principles that you talk to as your source at some time during his many years of training.

I took ukemi for Tohei Sensei more than once here in California when he came to our dojo to teach an even class for just the dojo. I have felt and trained with several of the instructors who came with him, some from Japan and others from Hawaii. Tohei was a very powerful individual, was like running into a wall, was like a moving solid sphere, his movement produced results from that turning sphere. It worked for him, it was very effective on us and none of the folks that came with him were like that.

I did all the ki exercises......I could do them at the level they were being presented and taught.......As I reflect back now I was not taught the steps needed to find motion in stillness or stillness in motion. I was not taught how to establish up and down...side to side or front to back stability. It was not presented. I was told to keep one point...not taught the steps to get there. I moved on.

It has only come to me lately as a gift that maintaing one point is really pulling out from center in all directions and learning how to maintain that. Solo practice with paired practice to check your progress.

It was never about Tohei not having something....rather it was about how it was passed along.

Just me.......fish or cut bait.....

Gary
Gary:

1) Graham does not belong to Ki Society and has no direct experience with Tohei Sensei.

2) His teacher did not belong to Ki Society either. At best, his teacher might have attended some seminars taught by Tohei Sensei.

3) His assertions regarding this subject matter cannot be substantiated in any manner, shape or form, despite repeated attempts from many different people to try and get him to do so.

4) Many of his ideas are based upon questionable translations from Japanese sources, that he then applies his own unique interpretations to.

Since this thread is about Tohei, solo practice and internal training, the value of people's opinions and interpretations of Tohei's ideas and teachings, without any substantial base of REAL training and experience with Tohei Sensei, is obvious to all. Bait is a good term and has many meanings with this person.....

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:52 AM   #39
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Sometimes people think that what they have learned or that their experience lets them know what someone else has experienced. Maybe what (Gary,) you have learned from wherever is different than what Graham learned. Maybe we could assume that Graham knows as much as Chris. Maybe we could discuss things.

Ron and I trained with Kokikai for many years. Maruyama Sensei taught many ideas. We took them to mean something...and then built on that. Someone else who trained with Maruyama might have taken it to mean something else...we could feel the difference when we went to camp. It didn't mean that Maruyama Sensei wasn't putting it out there.

That fish or cut bait stuff shuts down discussion...it sounds like only certain people know what is real.

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Old 03-06-2013, 09:22 AM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Empty Body

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. Chris. I am coming from understanding. I find the 'call you out' approach strange. I do so in life too, I usually smile at such things and walk away.

I suggest you study and practice some shin shin toitsu do, go to some classes and then come back to me and tell me about how they practice those principles, how they test them and use them.

Nothing to do with 'sources' , no argument.

Peace.G.
Smiling at facts and walking away doesn't make them any less factual.

For the rest - that's really a seperate discussion.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-06-2013, 09:46 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: The Empty Body

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
Chris Li comes from the Islands were Tohei was King for a long time. Most of the early Aikido folks that Chris learned from were Tohei trained........so Chris likely knows, has felt, has practiced, has been the principles that you talk to as your source at some time during his many years of training.

I took ukemi for Tohei Sensei more than once here in California when he came to our dojo to teach an even class for just the dojo. I have felt and trained with several of the instructors who came with him, some from Japan and others from Hawaii. Tohei was a very powerful individual, was like running into a wall, was like a moving solid sphere, his movement produced results from that turning sphere. It worked for him, it was very effective on us and none of the folks that came with him were like that.

I did all the ki exercises......I could do them at the level they were being presented and taught.......As I reflect back now I was not taught the steps needed to find motion in stillness or stillness in motion. I was not taught how to establish up and down...side to side or front to back stability. It was not presented. I was told to keep one point...not taught the steps to get there. I moved on.

It has only come to me lately as a gift that maintaing one point is really pulling out from center in all directions and learning how to maintain that. Solo practice with paired practice to check your progress.

It was never about Tohei not having something....rather it was about how it was passed along.

Just me.......fish or cut bait.....

Gary
Hi Gary.
Shame it took so long for you to be taught in a way that suited you better. You sound like you are benefiting so that's good.

Why you feel you have to tell me about Chris I don't know.

I don't adhere to the belief of training with equals knows more or indeed to the belief that you must belong to a certain group in order to know. However those stuck in that belief I understand too for anything outside of their usual frame of reference they find hard to accept.

I'm glad to hear you now have a better understanding of one point through what you have been practicing, an understanding I have been talking about on here for quite a while I might add along with other aspects of Tohei's methods.

I note you said you learned at the level they were being taught. That's the key point. You then point out what you were not being taught in retrospect. That's all nice and clear. A nice clear presentation of your own personal experience. It doesn't however mean that others were not taught in a better way.

The point Chris was on about was about me saying Tohei got his mind and body unification principles from Shin shin Toitsu do. Believe it or not I understand why he doesn't believe that to be the case for those who follow the way of reasoning he does would have to see it written as such, quoted by him as such or by a close associate of his.

Me, I prefer innocence and common sense. Those things are taught within shin shin toitsu do complete with exercises for weight underside, one point, relaxing with relation to Ki, et. al. No one else presented such things in that way at that time therefor it is quite fine to say he got them from there.

Also the two sentences of mine Chris 'questioned' were addressed to another person, alex if I remember correctly, and refer to a link he pointed out to read. In that article a teacher talked about Tohei. In that article he said Tohei made up his shin shin toitsu principles ie: created them himself.

Well, as I said in those two sentences...I think there is some lost in translation going on. (not translation of language)

The shin shin toitsu principles of Aikido practice he certainly did create himself and I believe those are the ones the Teacher in the interview was talking about. Although they too are an extension of the mind and body unification ones.

Nobody or rather not many were taught or were even aware of shin shin toitsu do as a separate yoga of itself and why should they be. However, I was. Were you?

Peace.G.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:06 AM   #42
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Sometimes people think that what they have learned or that their experience lets them know what someone else has experienced. Maybe what (Gary,) you have learned from wherever is different than what Graham learned. Maybe we could assume that Graham knows as much as Chris. Maybe we could discuss things.

Ron and I trained with Kokikai for many years. Maruyama Sensei taught many ideas. We took them to mean something...and then built on that. Someone else who trained with Maruyama might have taken it to mean something else...we could feel the difference when we went to camp. It didn't mean that Maruyama Sensei wasn't putting it out there.

That fish or cut bait stuff shuts down discussion...it sounds like only certain people know what is real.
Mary
There are so many paths, paths that dead end, paths that turn back on themselves, paths that offer nothing past a elementary understanding. I am ok with folks taking whatever paths they feel are right for themselves.........but folks have to get out to vet what they do to understand what is real and what is not.

Fish or cut bait has to do with going forward or sitting on what you have now. As for cutting off discussion......discussion gets you nothing but a surface understanding of what folks think they know and can do...... Feeling it......getting together to check what you think you can do....and admit when it doesn't' work and asking for help......or helping when one can......going outside the established comfort zone....is missing from discussion unless you share a common background....that in itself another slippery slope. You have to be clear on what you don't know, that is missing from discussion here.

Gary
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:20 AM   #43
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Sometimes people think that what they have learned or that their experience lets them know what someone else has experienced. Maybe what (Gary,) you have learned from wherever is different than what Graham learned. Maybe we could assume that Graham knows as much as Chris. Maybe we could discuss things.
It would be nice if everybody knew as much as everybody else, but they don't. That's why I asked Graham what his justification was for stating that body and mind unification comes form Shin-Shin Toitsu Do (note that he's since repeated that assertion). Unfortunately, instead of discussing it he "smiled and walked away" since "his mind doesn't work that way".

Doesn't make for much of a discussion, but it's perfect for the passive agressive statements that seem to subsitute for discussion on AikiWeb these days.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-06-2013, 10:33 AM   #44
akiy
 
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Hi folks,

When engaging in discussion here on AikiWeb, please be sure to move the discussion forward by being prepared to back up your assertions. If you are, instead, stating your own opinions based upon your own experience, please be clear in stating such when making the initial point.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 03-06-2013, 10:42 AM   #45
Marc Abrams
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

When engaging in discussion here on AikiWeb, please be sure to move the discussion forward by being prepared to back up your assertions. If you are, instead, stating your own opinions based upon your own experience, please be clear in stating such when making the initial point.

Thank you,

-- Jun
Jun:

THANK YOU FOR STATING THAT! Opinions are very, very different from facts. Supporting data behind any position is the basis for any sensible debate!

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:08 AM   #46
graham christian
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Excuse me but his little tete a tete started in post 32. What I said is quoted. It starts with "I think"

Chris refers to that as an assertion. Not true.

It is a conclusion of mine hence the words 'I think'

As pointed out later in the thread I explain why I think so. ie: Those principles and even exercises were already in shin shin toitsu do. Nowhere else in that form.

A fair conclusion I would say.

To find out one would have to go look at that yoga form, much of which I was taught.

However you can no doubt read up on it and find out for yourself, nothing stopping anyone doing so.

I know there is at least one book on it but not being one for holding on to what I consider superfluous data ie: names of writers or even for that matter specific titles of all the books I have ever read or been told about then I would have to look it up. One is called something to do with yoga, maybe dynamic yoga or Japanese yoga by a master of the art. Ithink his name begins with H.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:32 PM   #47
Mert Gambito
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Excuse me but his little tete a tete started in post 32. What I said is quoted. It starts with "I think"

Chris refers to that as an assertion. Not true.

It is a conclusion of mine hence the words 'I think'

As pointed out later in the thread I explain why I think so. ie: Those principles and even exercises were already in shin shin toitsu do. Nowhere else in that form.

A fair conclusion I would say.

To find out one would have to go look at that yoga form, much of which I was taught.
Here's the quote in question:
Quote:
I think somethings lost in translation there. The mind and body coordination principles he did get from shin shin toitsu do. His Aikido principles based on those then he created.
Graham, you're quite decisive regarding your clarification. It's your opinion of what the facts are. The challenges to your assertions are one matter. However, switching contexts regarding the use of "I think" -- clearly you were addressing what you perceive as a loss in translation on Alex's part regarding his understanding of the facts -- is an unfortunate bait and switch.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 03-06-2013 at 12:39 PM.

Mert
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:54 PM   #48
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Here's the quote in question:

Graham, you're quite decisive regarding your clarification. It's your opinion of what the facts are. The challenges to your assertions are one matter. However, switching contexts regarding the use of "I think" -- clearly you were addressing what you perceive as a loss in translation on Alex's part regarding his understanding of the facts -- is an unfortunate bait and switch.
Yes Mert. I don't know what a bait and switch is though.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:42 PM   #49
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Maruyama Sensei taught many ideas. We took them to mean something...and then built on that.
And in the building is where we were able to dig deeper into his teachings and discover for ourselves how to go beyond the external forms that we were taught and merge them with the ideas they were designed to embody. The most difficult part of the process, the part that took many years of training to realize, was how to learn to learn. Ki exercises, Ki testing and technique are the seeds of Aikido, not the art itself. Once they're planted in the student diligent training and honest self examination are required for them to grow and bear fruit.

Ron

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Old 03-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #50
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Re: Tohei, Solo Practice, and Internal Training

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
And in the building is where we were able to dig deeper into his teachings and discover for ourselves how to go beyond the external forms that we were taught and merge them with the ideas they were designed to embody. The most difficult part of the process, the part that took many years of training to realize, was how to learn to learn. Ki exercises, Ki testing and technique are the seeds of Aikido, not the art itself. Once they're planted in the student diligent training and honest self examination are required for them to grow and bear fruit.

Ron
I fully agree Ron.

Giving opinions to help broaden other's understandings is an interesting path.

Peace.G.
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