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Old 03-05-2013, 03:15 PM   #26
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Ps the last part of my anatomy, [my posterior breathing] is particularly difficult.So far I can exhale really well [the vibrations are loud and clear] the inhalations are much harder to master.No doubt in a few decades I may well become proficient.Needless to say when I train this part of my anatomy ,I usually find myself alone in the dojo.I wonder why??
Hi Joe

Perhaps you have been training in the wrong lineage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_P%C3%A9tomane

Regards
Robert
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:16 PM   #27
Rob Watson
Location: CA
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Hi Joe

Perhaps you have been training in the wrong lineage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_P%C3%A9tomane

Regards
Robert
IHTBF? Pass ... wait, don't.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:42 PM   #28
Walter Martindale
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Re: reverse breathing

Careful... the beer might be speaking...

Reverse breathing? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday!!! Is that like flail chest?

To inhale, one MUST decrease the pressure within the lungs so that it is below the air pressure outside. this is done by expanding the rib cage via the intercostal muscles and by contracting the diaphragm, reducing the pressure between the layers of the pleura, which in turn pulls on the lungs, causing them to expand, reducing the air pressure in the pleura, causing air to flow in. At least - that's a quick summary of what I remember from DeVries and Guyton (physiology textbooks).

Reverse breathing sounds like something someone who didn't know squat about anatomy and physiology made up to explain something that he or she was doing, and then it got misinterpreted somewhere in the downstream lineage, and now people are trying to do things that go against breathing mechanisms that have been worked out over millions of years of evolution in all species that have lungs.

That other stuff - breathing out the reverse end.. well.. Beans, Beans, the Musical Fruit... The more you eat the more you toot... The more you toot the better you feel, so eat Beans with every meal!!!

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 03-05-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:39 PM   #29
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
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Re: reverse breathing

You know, if you spend too much time studying anatomy you'll never figure out how your body works.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:28 AM   #30
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
IHTBF? Pass ... wait, don't.
Dear Robert,
Nice one here.At the moment I can only parp three octaves.Must increase my fibre content. Top C in particular makes me [and others]squirm.I find it hard to do a parp with a straight face , especially in a packed lift.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:06 PM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
You know, if you spend too much time studying anatomy you'll never figure out how your body works.
Seriously? Being ironic?

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 03-06-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:47 PM   #32
Janet Rosen
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
To inhale, one MUST decrease the pressure within the lungs so that it is below the air pressure outside. this is done by expanding the rib cage via the intercostal muscles and by contracting the diaphragm, reducing the pressure between the layers of the pleura, which in turn pulls on the lungs, causing them to expand, reducing the air pressure in the pleura, causing air to flow in. At least - that's a quick summary of what I remember from DeVries and Guyton (physiology textbooks).
The nurse says, "yes, but..."
In order to ACCOMPLISH the air pressure one actually has a choice of using some accessory muscles more than others. One can direct the expansion up into the anterior chest, creating a big expansion there with minimal lateral and posterior thorax movement and minimal abdominal expansion - the way most people breathe when their doctor tells them to take a deep breath. Or, one can do the "abdominal breathing" I was taught in the dojo, being told "it's how babies naturelaly breathe": relaxing the chest and letting the abdomen expand with the inhale, deflate with the exhale. Or, one can focus on lateral and posterior expansion of the thorax, feeling very full and expansive while the chest is relatively quiet and the abdomen still.
(I actually had to show this to a nurse friend recently, with her hands on me, who thought I was nuts when I talked about different ways of breathing - because, indeed, reading texts will NOT teach you what you can actually feel and do as a living breathing being)
So reverse breathing, as I understand it, has to do with abdominal use - essentially contracting on inhale, expanding on exhale, yes? I may be wrong but that's what I think it is- somebody else will jump in and say if that's right or not....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:24 PM   #33
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: reverse breathing

Martin: Srsly.

In that our best understanding of anatomy is still pretty crude compared to the complexity of the body. You can do a lot with your body that's real hard to explain anatomically. It's often better just to get your head out of the way and let your body do its thing.

Janet: Right. All the squishy stuff between diaphragm and pelvic floor contracts into a tight little ball--making more space for the lungs and allowing an inhale without expanding the chest hugely.

And as long as I'm posting in this thread allow me to say that I find all these warnings about reverse breathing a bit whacked. Reminds me of how people talk about weightlifting--OMG! Blood pressure! Hypertension! Your head's gonna explodz!

Yeah, you can screw yourself up in fairly minor and temporary ways. BFD. You can screw yourself up doing anything worthwhile physically. Talk to my doctor friend about how many people injure themselves doing yoga, often in ways that are not minor or temporary (downward dog, anybody?).

More important is to know what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Last edited by hughrbeyer : 03-06-2013 at 10:24 PM. Reason: "Its" for "it's". I hang my head in shame.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:59 PM   #34
Janet Rosen
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Yeah, you can screw yourself up in fairly minor and temporary ways. BFD. You can screw yourself up doing anything worthwhile physically. Talk to my doctor friend about how many people injure themselves doing yoga, often in ways that are not minor or temporary (downward dog, anybody?).
The orthopod who did my ACL graft/meniscectomy told me he worked on a guy who totally blew his medial meniscus going into lotus position and either on aikiweb or aikido-l yrs ago somebody posted they blew a knee out getting up from the mat.
Life is dangerous but beats the alternative

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:02 AM   #35
Walter Martindale
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
The nurse says, "yes, but..."
In order to ACCOMPLISH the air pressure one actually has a choice of using some accessory muscles more than others. One can direct the expansion up into the anterior chest, creating a big expansion there with minimal lateral and posterior thorax movement and minimal abdominal expansion - the way most people breathe when their doctor tells them to take a deep breath. Or, one can do the "abdominal breathing" I was taught in the dojo, being told "it's how babies naturelaly breathe": relaxing the chest and letting the abdomen expand with the inhale, deflate with the exhale. Or, one can focus on lateral and posterior expansion of the thorax, feeling very full and expansive while the chest is relatively quiet and the abdomen still.
(I actually had to show this to a nurse friend recently, with her hands on me, who thought I was nuts when I talked about different ways of breathing - because, indeed, reading texts will NOT teach you what you can actually feel and do as a living breathing being)
So reverse breathing, as I understand it, has to do with abdominal use - essentially contracting on inhale, expanding on exhale, yes? I may be wrong but that's what I think it is- somebody else will jump in and say if that's right or not....
Hi Janet,
I'm aware of abdominal breathing. I understand it to be primarily the diaphragm descending to draw the bottom (inferior aspects) of the lungs "downwards" (if you're standing), creating the necessary negative air pressure. Also aware of the different control of breathing by expanding the rib cage in various ways, and getting the "fullest" (not really a word) lungful by expanding the chest AND drawing the diaphragm down (abdominal breathing).

"Reverse Breathing" simply makes no sense to me. Do I "know" how the body works? That's hard to say - I've been "doing" aikido for about 17 years, raced competitive rowing for 3 years, judo for 8 years, and a professional rowing coach for nearly 30 years. I've trained rowing coaches, too, and some of the folks I've trained as coaches have (like me) developed young people so that they've gone on and won at world and Olympic championships. But I don't know anything about how the body works. I know that I don't know everything about how the body works. Reverse Breathing - if someone can show me what it is, perhaps, but what I've read here makes no sense.

Breathing in humans has mechanical, chemical, and neurological 'drivers' (you know that) and they've evolved pretty well - what we need to do is breathe without interfering with nature. Or perhaps learn to breathe taking advantage of some bits of knowledge - for example, does a brief Valsalva maneuver on exertion contribute to increased ppO2 in the lungs and better extraction of oxygen or not? Has such research been done either in CPR studies or sports lit? (I don't know).
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:12 AM   #36
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
"Reverse Breathing" simply makes no sense to me.
Walter, i don't know if you have read through this thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...erse+breathing or not. that thread discussed the reverse breathing stuffs. there were other threads sprinkling around aikiweb discussed about reverse breathing too. reverse breathing related to chinese arts for some times now. it's not new. it usually associates with internal power IP/IS practices. most folks aren't interested in it so it wouldn't matter much to most aikido folks. i'd say just ignore it.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:22 AM   #37
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
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England
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
The orthopod who did my ACL graft/meniscectomy told me he worked on a guy who totally blew his medial meniscus going into lotus position and either on aikiweb or aikido-l yrs ago somebody posted they blew a knee out getting up from the mat.
Life is dangerous but beats the alternative
I can beat that...

A few years ago I had just returned from an intensive weekend aikido course, and was lying on the sofa watching TV. My calves were feeling quite tight, so I thought I'd try to massage them as I lay there. I pressed my right heel into the top of the left calf, and all of a sudden there was a "crack" and I felt something give inside my knee. It subsequently swelled up and it was several weeks before I could walk without any discomfort. You certainly don't need strenuous exercise to injure yourself...

Alex
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:14 AM   #38
mathewjgano
 
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Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
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Re: reverse breathing

I don't know if this pertinent or not, but I used to like to lay on my stomach and breathe "into" my kidneys and lower back. I can see how this probably wouldn't be quite the same thing as being able to control the expansion of the abdomen directly, but it was an interesting way of seeing where the expansion can go. I use this as a way to help me put ki into those areas so I can be a little more aware of them in general, so for me right now it's a way of mapping the body.
p.s. the first time I threw my back out was sitting down; it's the same place I usually feel any lower back pain today. All it takes is for one critical piece to get strained or otherwise get out of whack for the house of cards to start falling down.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-07-2013 at 11:19 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:22 PM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: reverse breathing

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't know if this pertinent or not, but I used to like to lay on my stomach and breathe "into" my kidneys and lower back. I can see how this probably wouldn't be quite the same thing as being able to control the expansion of the abdomen directly, but it was an interesting way of seeing where the expansion can go. I use this as a way to help me put ki into those areas so I can be a little more aware of them in general, so for me right now it's a way of mapping the body.
p.s. the first time I threw my back out was sitting down; it's the same place I usually feel any lower back pain today. All it takes is for one critical piece to get strained or otherwise get out of whack for the house of cards to start falling down.
www.backfitpro.com
Stuart McGill knows his way around backs and core stabilisation better than just about anyone. disclaimer - I don't get any royalties from his book sales, I do coach at the rowing club where his wife and daughter row.
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