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Old 02-24-2013, 06:37 PM   #26
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Would you relate this to rei-ryoku-tai?
I don't think so. I'm not really familiar with the term. Is it Omotokyo? Many Japanese concepts sound similar to the Chinese concepts, but, they don't always go to the depth of detail the Chinese do. For instance, unification of mind and body or harmonization of mind and body. The most I ever got out of this in Japanese terms was to try to coordinate my mind and body to produce good tai sabaki and timing of movement.

What I've been getting into with the IP concepts is that my mind has really integrated with my body--not in the outer form of movement, but in being able to move within my body by "riding" the ki to become intimately aware of the inner assembly of my body.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:01 AM   #27
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
What I've been getting into with the IP concepts is that my mind has really integrated with my body--not in the outer form of movement, but in being able to move within my body by "riding" the ki to become intimately aware of the inner assembly of my body.
Someone with whom I practised in Japan always talked about developing the ability "to see" inside oneself. He emphasised that he didn't mean the regular mode of seeing : 見る, rather 視る (I think)

Interestingly,Chris Li translated an interview withTamura Nobuyoshi in which he also talked about "looking inside oneself" while practising chi kung/kiko.

FWIW
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:07 AM   #28
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I don't think so. I'm not really familiar with the term. Is it Omotokyo?
Yes. Rei (spirit), ryoku (power), tai (body). In kotodama terms, rei can be read as CHI, while tai is KARAda or the KARA-tama. Put together they make chi-kara (power).
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:37 AM   #29
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?


The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-25-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:25 PM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

From Davids description sound like Ki leads mind then.

Peace.G.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:09 PM   #31
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
From Davids description sound like Ki leads mind then.
Not at all, Graham.

Normally, there would be no division and the mind and ki would work together well enough for most people to live an ordinary life.

But modern society puts all the emphasis on the mind (calculation and intellect) over both body and "emotions" (all the ki functions of feeling and movement that aren't directly useful for business calculation).

When the mind is so completely alienated from the very ki of which it is made, then it's necessary for the mind perhaps not to be led by the ki, but to follow the ki like a horse tamer. If you read "The Man Who Listens to Horses," it's sort of like that. You only get to understand horses by hanging with them and paying very close attention to them over a long period. To get to know your ki, your mind has to get to know it. That means not making it do what you want it to do, but finding out what it is, what it's about and what it wants to do, as well as how it does that. And after you know it so well, you can befriend it (since it is actually yourself) and if you have enough mental development, you can begin to lead it.

How can you lead something you really don't understand at all?

But here is an important point. After following the ki around and hanging out with it and watching its tricks, one may or not recognize that ki comes from kokoro. Then there is the question of how much influence the rational mind should have over the natural heart. As a literary artist, this has been a question I've worked on for forty years and it has filtered through my approach to martial arts as well. Who is to rule the heart? Whose business it is?

Well, here we find another continuum and the poles are "Pure Heart" and "Defeat the Self."

The danger of the "pure heart" side is disintegration into passions or frivolity. The danger of the "Defeat the Self" side is that you will defeat yourself.

Both ways are bad for the ki and for the whole life.

The "pure heart" way, without rational strength may indeed end up led by ki, attributing everything to ki and eschewing technique.

The "defeat the self" type tends to put everything on technique and uses adherence to technique as a "spiritual" practice to take up for the lack of a spirit.

The answer is, indeed, for the rational mind to understand kokoro and direct it from passion or frivolity to a middle way, not to the other extreme of "defeat the self," but to the middle place called "amenominakanushi," or "the boss." This is the place of "winning the self," not defeating self.

Here the kokoro is "tamed" by the rational mind, like a lion domesticating itself, so that the ki issuing from kokoro is strong and smooth. And the mind that conditions the ki so is then fit to direct that ki to wherever.

And of course, this cannot be done entirely in the mind and ki. It has to been actively done in the body, so the body is in pretty good condition and is able to respond to (and bear) the leading of the ki, as directed by the balanced mind.

So, no, it isn't that the mind follows the ki. It only follows the ki long enough to know it completely. After that, it directs and trains the ki.

Hope that makes it clearer.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:12 AM   #32
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?


The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.
I hope it didn't sound like I was trying to quote Mike or explain what he thinks. I was trying to frame some of what I was thinking relative "something" he said somewhere (and I have no idea where to look for the quote).

Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:14 AM   #33
Hareksu
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman added something to that a while back that I think I understand now. Mind leads ki and ki leads body are only two harmonies. Aren't there supposed to be three?


The Chinese motto is Yi-Chi-Li. Mind (intent) leads Energy which leads/creates Power and its external expression by the body. In other words, mental intent is the driver that sparks the manipulation of opposing forces to create the energy that is converted to the power that drives waza.
Weeeelll, not really. The Chinese three internal harmonies are xin - yi, yi - qi and qi - li. Xin being the heart, whatever that may mean.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:44 AM   #34
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Alex Borghgraef wrote: View Post
Weeeelll, not really. The Chinese three internal harmonies are xin - yi, yi - qi and qi - li. Xin being the heart, whatever that may mean.
Alex, it depends on how you want to look at it.. The "pure" interpretation of the Three Internal Harmonies includes Xin in tandem with Yi, sort of a "conjoined twin" representing one of the Three Harmonies. There is slight difference between Xin (heart) and Yi (mind). Xin is the desire -- you have to have the desire to do something in order to take action to do it. It is not in itself an active condition, but it leads to one: Yi. Yi ("mind") is the intent, sparked by Xin. Yi is the active state that is the actual spark of physical initiation.

We can split hairs with terms, but in actual practice Yi-Chi-Li is the practical "short list" of the three internal harmonies, and we accept the conjoined presence of Xin with Yi.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:26 AM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Alex, it depends on how you want to look at it.. The "pure" interpretation of the Three Internal Harmonies includes Xin in tandem with Yi, sort of a "conjoined twin" representing one of the Three Harmonies. There is slight difference between Xin (heart) and Yi (mind). Xin is the desire -- you have to have the desire to do something in order to take action to do it. It is not in itself an active condition, but it leads to one: Yi. Yi ("mind") is the intent, sparked by Xin. Yi is the active state that is the actual spark of physical initiation.

We can split hairs with terms, but in actual practice Yi-Chi-Li is the practical "short list" of the three internal harmonies, and we accept the conjoined presence of Xin with Yi.
That's how I had come to understand it.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:28 AM   #36
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I hope it didn't sound like I was trying to quote Mike or explain what he thinks. I was trying to frame some of what I was thinking relative "something" he said somewhere (and I have no idea where to look for the quote).

Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this.

Thanks.

David
Hi David,
I can only offer my own understanding, from my own practice. In and Yo (Yin and Yang) are qualities or states, not energy (Ki, Chi) itself. You know that In and Yo are complementary opposites that cannot exist without each other; they are always present in some form of balance. They can be maintained in a steady state, or they can fluxuate with the conditions, but where it comes to manipulating energy in the human body, there is no "all In" or "all Yo." There is either a neutral state of equal expression, or the expression of more of one quality, to some degree, than of the other.

So, the aiki we are creating can express more of the qualities of one than of the other. That would be my interpretation of "In/Yin aiki" and "Yo/Yang aiki. Thus,""In Aiki" would be aiki that has more of the "In" qualities -- aiki that draws and sucks in, and "Yo Aiki" would be aiki that projects and expands out. The corresponding parts of the body and processes that manipulate ki/chi/energy this way would also be those associated with "In" and "Yo" and used in the same balance as the aiki they produce and express.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:22 AM   #37
phitruong
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Thus,""In Aiki" would be aiki that has more of the "In" qualities -- aiki that draws and sucks in,.
i thought most aikido are the kind that draws and sucks.

*sorry, couldn't help meself*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:23 AM   #38
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Not at all, Graham.

Normally, there would be no division and the mind and ki would work together well enough for most people to live an ordinary life.

But modern society puts all the emphasis on the mind (calculation and intellect) over both body and "emotions" (all the ki functions of feeling and movement that aren't directly useful for business calculation).

When the mind is so completely alienated from the very ki of which it is made, then it's necessary for the mind perhaps not to be led by the ki, but to follow the ki like a horse tamer. If you read "The Man Who Listens to Horses," it's sort of like that. You only get to understand horses by hanging with them and paying very close attention to them over a long period. To get to know your ki, your mind has to get to know it. That means not making it do what you want it to do, but finding out what it is, what it's about and what it wants to do, as well as how it does that. And after you know it so well, you can befriend it (since it is actually yourself) and if you have enough mental development, you can begin to lead it.

How can you lead something you really don't understand at all?

But here is an important point. After following the ki around and hanging out with it and watching its tricks, one may or not recognize that ki comes from kokoro. Then there is the question of how much influence the rational mind should have over the natural heart. As a literary artist, this has been a question I've worked on for forty years and it has filtered through my approach to martial arts as well. Who is to rule the heart? Whose business it is?

Well, here we find another continuum and the poles are "Pure Heart" and "Defeat the Self."

The danger of the "pure heart" side is disintegration into passions or frivolity. The danger of the "Defeat the Self" side is that you will defeat yourself.

Both ways are bad for the ki and for the whole life.

The "pure heart" way, without rational strength may indeed end up led by ki, attributing everything to ki and eschewing technique.

The "defeat the self" type tends to put everything on technique and uses adherence to technique as a "spiritual" practice to take up for the lack of a spirit.

The answer is, indeed, for the rational mind to understand kokoro and direct it from passion or frivolity to a middle way, not to the other extreme of "defeat the self," but to the middle place called "amenominakanushi," or "the boss." This is the place of "winning the self," not defeating self.

Here the kokoro is "tamed" by the rational mind, like a lion domesticating itself, so that the ki issuing from kokoro is strong and smooth. And the mind that conditions the ki so is then fit to direct that ki to wherever.

And of course, this cannot be done entirely in the mind and ki. It has to been actively done in the body, so the body is in pretty good condition and is able to respond to (and bear) the leading of the ki, as directed by the balanced mind.

So, no, it isn't that the mind follows the ki. It only follows the ki long enough to know it completely. After that, it directs and trains the ki.

Hope that makes it clearer.

David
My statement was based on what you said about Ki 'feeling' and then the mind can only receive that feeling and organize accordingly. Thus Ki first. Then as you say mind being manifested or made from Ki equals once again Ki first.

I'm quite happy reading your explanations as it shows me also your progress and note how your reality of Ki is improving. I notice you are using the term 'feeling' too which not too long ago only a few of us on here used. All good.

Of particular interest also was your view on the two poles. Thus I can see how you reason such and conclude such as you say. I don't agree at all but that's immaterial here as I can see how you conclude and thus understand your view. If anything that means you write well, so that's good also.

But as for the point above ...the mind follows the Ki thus is led by Ki and then when the mind knows it trains or leads the Ki. Once again yes that is clear and I understand your view. Although I don't agree with the second part but that's not really to do with this thread for this is under IP and thus not for me to argue any point. Just inquire and understand. So thanks for the explanation.

Peace.G.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:17 PM   #39
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mochizuki Sensei specified that ki itself has both yin and yang and that aiki to can be either yin or yang. In either case, I think it would still be a combination of yin and yang.

Please comment more on this.
Ki is the dynamic of oscillation or the equivalent coinciding or alternation of opposing balanced complements -- of ... pretty much anything. It is a wholly different WAY of categorizing form, action and potential, than the western force-mass categories. Even though they often treat the same subject matter, they do not map onto one another at all -- but there are points of connection. It is completely intelligible in its own terms -- but the connecting point to western physical categories is understanding coincident complement forces/stresses and oscillatory dynamics.

There is one physical action that exhibits simultaneous yin (compression/contraction) and yang (tension/expansion) -- a shear. In shear -- tension and compression act at the same time and at right angles to one another. Shear occurs in bending stresses (in a plane) -- or more generally and more interestingly, in torsion, where they form a dual-spiral relationship around and strongest at the perimeter or skin of the object. See image: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

If one projects these torsional yin/yang, compression/tension shear stresses in three axes of space you get this: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink This is basically a six-directions diagram with the "windings."

Without getting into higher maths-- the potential of rotation (stress) and actual rotations are equivalent and the center of rotations can move around in counter-intuitive -- but understandable ways. This the reason for the illusion of the bendy pencil -- your mind tracks the oscillating center of rotations in the object more than it does the object itself and as the center moves the pencil appears to bend with displacement of its travelling center of rotation. This is directly witnessing ki applied to a rigid object -- and in which your perception of the ki dominates over perception of the actual object to which it is applied. The "feel" of ki in potentials (versus actual) rotations with the kinesthetic sense within the body or any connected body is similar.

Quote:
The ki, in IP/IS, is used to "feel" within the body without having to have some nerve impulse. The mind can detect both nerve impulse and the "feelings" of ki. Usually, people believe that it is the mind that is feeling, but it is not. The nerves feel and the ki feels, but the mind can only receive the impressions from those feelings and it organizes that information and takes action on it.
Ki -- in the sense that I assert it, is a field quantity. If expressed in one part it is expressed in all parts-- unless there is a discontinuity. As a field quantity, what is felt in one part is felt in all parts. At a discontinuity - the field reflects itself -- which is a oscillation pattern, and one can learn to feel the orientation/placement of that reflection at the discontinuity. It is very hard to describe what it feels like -- a sense of a freedom to rotate (either folding or unfolding) and/or displacing the location of the freedom to rotate, inward or outward.

On the relation of these harmonies, this is great and succint description.
Quote:
The three external harmonies are:

the feet harmonize with the hands
the knees harmonize with the elbows
the hips harmonize with the shoulders

The three internal harmonies are:

the heart harmonizes with the intent
the intent harmonizes with the qi
the qi harmonizes with the strength
A straightforward and matter of fact discussion.

This progressive inward or outward displacement of location of rotation or the freedom to rotate I associate with these three external harmonies -- since they all track the proximal/distal coordination relationship as the body folds/unfolds or twists/untwists inward to the center or outward from it.

On the internal harmonies -- I take it thus:

Heart (xin) harmonizing with mind/intent (yi) -- directs action to reflect all action -- not to anticipate and not to react -- depending more on initiation by reflexive faculties and not by conscious direction;

Intent (yi) harmonizing with qi(k)i orients reflective/reflexive action in-phase or out of phase -- but WITH the oscillation or potential freedom to rotate -- and never directly trying to oppose the displacement itself -- and to its limit until it naturally reflects and reverses phases at a discontinuity);

Qi(ki) harmonizing with strength (li) orients the pattern of muscular additions to the action to drive (or damp) the qi(ki) flow to greater (or lesser) energy exactly -- like pumping a swing (or damping it. This is the use of resonance or critical damping -- to generate or dissipate energy in the action.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-26-2013 at 02:26 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:33 AM   #40
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My statement was based on what you said about Ki 'feeling' and then the mind can only receive that feeling and organize accordingly. Thus Ki first. Then as you say mind being manifested or made from Ki equals once again Ki first.
No, the first is kokoro, from which ki comes into this world from non-existence.

Kokoro.

Also pronounced "shin" or "xin," and often presented as "mind".

But the "mind" required for martial arts is not pure kokoro, but kokoro (heart) balanced by the "wise" mind, the combination creating "yi" or "i".

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm quite happy reading your explanations as it shows me also your progress and note how your reality of Ki is improving. I notice you are using the term 'feeling' too which not too long ago only a few of us on here used. All good.
I remember it mostly from the ones saying "It has to be felt."

Of course, I said in my 1/5/2011 post on "Ki Eureka" that ki is the part of our consciousness that "feels" independent of the nerves.

I mean...two people can say the same thing, more or less, but only one might know what he's talking about. So I always listen very carefully.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:43 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Sorry, what is also pronounced shin?

Peace, G.
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:55 AM   #42
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Sorry, what is also pronounced shin?

Peace, G.
Kokoro can also be pronounced "shin" (sheen) in Japanese.

In Chinese, it's xin.

Ki emerges from kokoro but kokoro is just the portal from non-existence and the roots of ki are in non-existence. Since our roots are in non-existence, we, in this world, can act from non-existence.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 03-03-2013, 11:39 AM   #43
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Kokoro can also be pronounced "shin" (sheen) in Japanese.

In Chinese, it's xin.

Ki emerges from kokoro but kokoro is just the portal from non-existence and the roots of ki are in non-existence. Since our roots are in non-existence, we, in this world, can act from non-existence.
Kokoro is pronounced kokoro in Japanese. However I do see what you mean but think that's where things get a bit mixed up.

Xin is chinese and pronounced sheen in japanese.

Your thoughts on the matter come from chinese xin and that old chinese philosophy related to heart.

Anyway, your thoughts make sense from the path you are following so it's all good.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #44
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Kokoro is pronounced kokoro in Japanese.
Actually, the primary Japanese pronunciation is "shin". That's the main reading and its meanings are "heart, mind, spirit".

You know, the original readings of kanji come from the Chinese pronunciation with indigenous Japanese words and pronunciation matched to the kanji. So "kokoro" is an alternate reading of the Japanese term "shin".

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
However I do see what you mean but think that's where things get a bit mixed up.
I wonder if you do see, Graham. And I don't think that's where things get a bit mixed up. I believe that could all be cleared up wonderfully if you would become more educated about Japan.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Xin is chinese and pronounced sheen in japanese.
They're the same character, from the same and only source, and the meaning is the same.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Your thoughts on the matter come from chinese xin and that old chinese philosophy related to heart.
As do all the Japanese teachings on the subject. I'm just wondering where your information comes from. I think everyone here would like to know that.

de mo shoganai, ne...

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 03-03-2013, 01:16 PM   #45
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Actually, the primary Japanese pronunciation is "shin". That's the main reading and its meanings are "heart, mind, spirit".

You know, the original readings of kanji come from the Chinese pronunciation with indigenous Japanese words and pronunciation matched to the kanji. So "kokoro" is an alternate reading of the Japanese term "shin".

I wonder if you do see, Graham. And I don't think that's where things get a bit mixed up. I believe that could all be cleared up wonderfully if you would become more educated about Japan.

They're the same character, from the same and only source, and the meaning is the same.

As do all the Japanese teachings on the subject. I'm just wondering where your information comes from. I think everyone here would like to know that.

de mo shoganai, ne...
They come from the wise mind.

The fact that Japanese kanji originates from chinese is pretty much irrelevant as English comes from Latin, greek, etc. It's like someone wanting to prove you must understand the roman way because the words you use all come from there.

No, how we use them here and now is what needs to be understood. How each Japanese used the words they used at the time is all that matters, not the chinese origins. This trying to turn all of Ueshiba's views into old chinese bagua type views is a great mistake in my view.

Now as I have said on numerous occasions understanding English is hard enough, especially when dealing with these kind of topics so I see clearly where others trying to translate such things can easily, and I mean easily go wrong. This means heart and this means spirit and this means Ki and it's all the same.........woahhhh....no it's not. Can you tell me the difference between spirit, soul, heart, void, or even just spirit and soul in English?

Spirit has many meanings in English. Heart has many too. The word 'be' has about 14 definitions. So when someone tells me kokorro means 'x' 'y' or 'z' well already I know it might or might not. It depends who said it, when and relating to what.

Ueshiba used the word Kami quite often. Another word with different meanings and thus contexts. Mostly I hear people saying that makes Japanese a very complicated language but not to me for English is in fact much more complicated. Words have definitions and most have more than one.

Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart. So then the question is when can it be used to mean heart? Under which definition? In what context? So saying it means heart you are inferrring that's it's basic definition and also commonly used as such by Japanese by saying it's an alternate reading of kokoro. It's like saying spirit is love. Well spirit is spirit and love is love, one is obviously not the other.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-03-2013, 01:31 PM   #46
David Orange
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
They come from the wise mind.
From Henry Ellis?

No, I've seen his many corrections to you.

Everyone who has trained with legitimate Japanese masters has disagreed with you.

Japanese dictionaries disagree with you.

O Sensei disagrees with you.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The fact that Japanese kanji originates from chinese is pretty much irrelevant as English comes from Latin, greek, etc.
Mostly from German, which is not Latin based, mixed with French, which is.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It's like someone wanting to prove you must understand the roman way because the words you use all come from there.
At least, one who does understand the roots has a better chance of speaking the truth than someone who is drawing from a vague, general mishmash of misinformation.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
No, how we use them here and now is what needs to be understood. How each Japanese used the words they used at the time is all that matters, not the chinese origins. This trying to turn all of Ueshiba's views into old chinese bagua type views is a great mistake in my view.
And O Sensei used terms and descriptions that are completely aligned with the old Chinese cosmology. Otherwise, why did so few of his students (all native speakers of Japanese) understand his words?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now as I have said on numerous occasions understanding English is hard enough, especially when dealing with these kind of topics so I see clearly where others trying to translate such things can easily, and I mean easily go wrong.
We have hundreds of pages of your commentary and opinions to prove that, on this subject, at least, you are correct.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart.
Grahama, I just looked it up in my Japanese writing textbook.

"Kokoro" is not even listed as a pronunciation. "Sin" (pronounced "sheen" because the Japanese pronounce "sh" but they spell it only with "s".

And the meaning of "shin" is "heart, mind, spirit."

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So then the question is when can it be used to mean heart? Under which definition? In what context? So saying it means heart you are inferrring that's it's basic definition and also commonly used as such by Japanese by saying it's an alternate reading of kokoro. It's like saying spirit is love. Well spirit is spirit and love is love, one is obviously not the other.
Just stick to English, Graham, and none of this will bother you.

I have an eight-year-old and he frequently tells me "spelling doesn't matter," but I to point out to him that mis-spelling is misunderstanding. Does it matter if you spell "dog" as "d-o-g" or "g-o-d"?

As I said, "shoganai."

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:08 PM   #47
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Heart< from old english>heorte

Spirit<latin>spiritus

Mind< old english>gemynd

Ain't it good to learn English.

You may also be interested to know that spiritus was also related to spirare meaning breath.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:34 PM   #48
Brett Charvat
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Kokoro is Japanese for heart. Xin is chinese for heart. Shin is Japanese and it's basic definition is not heart...
--I have never seen a quote that so clearly delineates an individual's complete lack of understanding of the Japanese language as this. "Shin" and "kokoro" are nothing more than two different pronunciations of the exact same kanji, with the exact same meaning. An alternate reading/pronounciation is not equivalent to an alternate definition, no matter how strongly one may wish it to be.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #49
graham christian
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
--I have never seen a quote that so clearly delineates an individual's complete lack of understanding of the Japanese language as this. "Shin" and "kokoro" are nothing more than two different pronunciations of the exact same kanji, with the exact same meaning. An alternate reading/pronounciation is not equivalent to an alternate definition, no matter how strongly one may wish it to be.
So having a kanji which can mean two different things means those two different things have the same meaning? I don't think so. Same kanji means only that, same kanji.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #50
bkedelen
 
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Re: Ki and "Connective Tissue"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So having a kanji which can mean two different things means those two different things have the same meaning? I don't think so. Same kanji means only that, same kanji.
Why would you not just thank Brett and David for sharing their knowledge? How will we develop skill if we cannot acknowledge our mistakes? Instruction is often a hard pill to swallow, but it is rarely without value.

Last edited by bkedelen : 03-03-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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