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Old 01-11-2013, 05:19 PM   #301
Chris Knight
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Re: Vantage points

in my eyes the problem here is that a lot of people cant quite get their head around the fact that these skills have been passed down to a westener whos quiet and quite reserved 8-)

these skills just dont seem to be associated with the west so can quite easily be disregarded over the net.

however, its quite obvious upon meeting the 10000 plus hours that dan has dedicated his life to can be immediately felt.

to a novice like me, its irrelevant as ill never reach the heights that i endeavour to but for the truly dedicated who can invest in the program full time - takedas aiki will begin to materialise, over the years.

this isnt widely comnunicated material which is becoming obvious as the arguements blaze on - but i would be all ears if i didnt want to miss the budo bus
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:04 PM   #302
osaya
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.
Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Oh ok. Your issue is probably with the whole potion analogy here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=287 .
Hi guys, a quick clarification just in case my post has been taken the wrong way by anyone. I did not mean to imply that Dan--or any other teacher--is selling bogus potions. The analogies were meant to help demonstrate what it looks like to the other side, i.e. as per the thread title, 'vantage points'. Hopefully when we understand where the other side comes from, we can then tailor our responses to address their concerns rather than preaching to our respective choirs.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:09 PM   #303
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
in my eyes the problem here is that a lot of people cant quite get their head around the fact that these skills have been passed down to a westener whos quiet and quite reserved 8-)

these skills just dont seem to be associated with the west so can quite easily be disregarded over the net.
the problem with dan and sigman and folks like them is that they aren't asian, so folks just instantly assumed that they know nothing and whatever they knew is junk. they just don't have the asian look or even the asian sounding names. i, on the other hand, the other one, the one that's not use to scratch meself, am asian, looked asian (i better be, otherwise i am going to have a talk with the milk man) which is good looking by default, sounded asian (with Minnesotian accent), and with asian name, so folks assumed, rightly so, that i have the right stuffs. folks would believe whatever i tell them about martial arts and so on. they also believed in free egg rolls with extra order of fried rice too.

the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives, where they can state that they have been taught the ancient asian secret ingredient of aiki soup from the steppe of asia (actually, mostly north carolina foothill, but they don't know that!) that can turn practitioner into super aiki-dunot martial artists. for a monthly fee of $9.99 with 20 easy installments, you can get an authentic certificate that state that you are in-fact asian and in-fact received ancient asian teaching. and for an extra $9.99, i can even give you an asian family name that you can freely use anytime, anywhere.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:53 PM   #304
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the problem with dan and sigman and folks like them is that they aren't asian, so folks just instantly assumed that they know nothing and whatever they knew is junk. they just don't have the asian look or even the asian sounding names. i, on the other hand, the other one, the one that's not use to scratch meself, am asian, looked asian (i better be, otherwise i am going to have a talk with the milk man) which is good looking by default, sounded asian (with Minnesotian accent), and with asian name, so folks assumed, rightly so, that i have the right stuffs. folks would believe whatever i tell them about martial arts and so on. they also believed in free egg rolls with extra order of fried rice too.

the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives, where they can state that they have been taught the ancient asian secret ingredient of aiki soup from the steppe of asia (actually, mostly north carolina foothill, but they don't know that!) that can turn practitioner into super aiki-dunot martial artists. for a monthly fee of $9.99 with 20 easy installments, you can get an authentic certificate that state that you are in-fact asian and in-fact received ancient asian teaching. and for an extra $9.99, i can even give you an asian family name that you can freely use anytime, anywhere.
Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....

Joe calls them Philijewnos
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:24 PM   #305
Janet Rosen
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the way to solve this problem for dan, sigman and other western folks, is that they can pay me a fee (pun intended) to have me adopt them as distance relatives
Fee, Phi? Faux! Fum(ing).....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #306
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
to a novice like me, its irrelevant as ill never reach the heights that i endeavour to but for the truly dedicated who can invest in the program full time - takedas aiki will begin to materialise, over the years.
Invest in the program full time? That sounds like a career! Who among us can afford to live like Sagawa, or has the eccentric drive of Takeda (not to mention the wife to manage all the logistical details of running a household while he was out and about)? Unless you are saying that you have no intentions of solo training even just a little bit each day, then you will develop tangible and applicable skills long before you are old and gray. A little at a time, with consistency, and you start to notice the incremental growth and changes in your body. You start realizing that you can "do things" that most others can't, and it keeps advancing from there.

It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.

Heck, even Takeda said that aiki is easy to learn, and that it could be taught to women and children. You should take that as a challenge!

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-11-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:41 AM   #307
Lee Salzman
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
Hi guys, a quick clarification just in case my post has been taken the wrong way by anyone. I did not mean to imply that Dan--or any other teacher--is selling bogus potions. The analogies were meant to help demonstrate what it looks like to the other side, i.e. as per the thread title, 'vantage points'. Hopefully when we understand where the other side comes from, we can then tailor our responses to address their concerns rather than preaching to our respective choirs.
I would also like to clarify that I took no issue with your original analogy. It was merely when the analogy was stretched and lost its tenuous grasp on reality that it became an issue, i.e. " the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa" and "strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin". Taken within the analogy of "Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization"...

We may disagree about the relevance of the skills. That is fine. We may disagree about whether or not they represent Morihei Ueshiba's training. That is fine. We may even agree the salesmanship tactics are a bit brash. A change in tone is certainly overdue. But, there is no fraud or bait-and-switch going on here. The work is what it says on the tin - power that is internally driven - that comes from the lineages any of the teachers in question will tell you if asked.

Well, okay, upon further looking at it, there is one issue I will take with your original analogy - "If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is... " juxtaposed with "But in order to invest the time/money to do it, they will need a level of credibility to surpass the minimum threshold to bother testing it. And that's why the skeptics keep badgering the pro-IS/IP camp for "proof"."

I think it may be overlooked that there are now groups of students worldwide training in all these things, and if for some reason the teacher is inaccessible to you, and if you're not expecting much out of works in progress (keeping in mind our own inside joke of "we suck"), you can go in and see the character of the work we're doing. Many of us will be happy to show-and-tell with like minds about what we're doing! No, we will not impress you, but I doubt any of us would turn you away either. Just don't set your bar too high, unless you're actually meeting with the high bar. The discussion seems to focus so much on one or two particular giant trees that the forest has dropped out of sight...
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:21 AM   #308
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
The discussion seems to focus so much on one or two particular giant trees that the forest has dropped out of sight...
+1

Ernesto
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:31 AM   #309
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Folks
As an analogy for me I look at the body this way.....helps me think about how to get this to work........ the body is like a complex set of gears...spur gears, helical gears, herringbone gears, internal gears, rack gears, bevel gears for right or left angle shafts like straight, helical, zerol, spiral, hypoid, screw, worm, crown and face gears. Gears in all sizes.....

For maximum efficiency for any given tasks the right gears need to be engaged and working together........ most of us never do that or get that that is needed.

To me the dantien is like a giant flywheel.....it focuses what is coming in linked through the gearing and distributes it back out through the gearing when working together. It's very movement maintains, adds to and generates power....

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....

To me Dan is one of the Gear Masters out there.....

Gary
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:20 AM   #310
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.
Thanks for the clarification David. Fair enough.

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote:
Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....
Kosher lumpia?? This is more of a snipe hunt than IP/IS.

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....
It is soooo like learning to drive stick shift within one's own body!

Mert
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #311
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Folks
As an analogy for me I look at the body this way.....helps me think about how to get this to work........ the body is like a complex set of gears...spur gears, helical gears, herringbone gears, internal gears, rack gears, bevel gears for right or left angle shafts like straight, helical, zerol, spiral, hypoid, screw, worm, crown and face gears. Gears in all sizes.....

For maximum efficiency for any given tasks the right gears need to be engaged and working together........ most of us never do that or get that that is needed.

To me the dantien is like a giant flywheel.....it focuses what is coming in linked through the gearing and distributes it back out through the gearing when working together. It's very movement maintains, adds to and generates power....

An example of a break in the process is tension in the shoulders .....it disengages the shoulder/elbow.arms/hands from the dantien and connected gears.....it as a smaller sub-assembly works alone....

The practice is how to bring or engage more of the body (individual gears) in to the set to collect more of the body when engaging.......

See it anyway you want...this is what helps me.....

To me Dan is one of the Gear Masters out there.....

Gary
Add pulleys and levers....we are complex machines...to the image....at least I do.....
Gary
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #312
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Vantage points

Hello Cady,
Reading here for a couple of years as a guest, I've always found your contributions refreshing and inspiring.

Quote:
It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.
The seed of Aiki has to be put into our body (Kimura Tatsuo, somewhere in his writings). This is the first step. But then, it begins to grow, depending on how good the ground is.

If we culture it like in a hothouse, then the results will probably be like a hothouse plant, i.e. in many cases good looking, with all the outer attributes for excellent marketing but may be tasteless and the first slight breeze might blow it away.
So, IMO it's also a question of reaching for good balance in every sense to get real positive results or else, if I were a crazy guy , I'd probably remain a crazy guy but now with crazy Aiki..

Take care
Bernd
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:16 PM   #313
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Vantage points

Hi Bernd,
Oh, absolutely there must be a balance between solo training and application... under increasing duress and pressure to "temper" your skills. It is a part of process to which I was referring.

My point was that we can have a well-balanced life -- not a single-minded one -- and still gain skills and excellence in a discipline that we love enough to dedicate at least a small part of our day to improving. And, it does not take that long to start seeing incremental results.
I got the impression from Chris K. that he felt that such a thing was beyond him because he could not dedicate his life... the "10,000 hours" at least ... to developing the "unusual power" of IP and aiki. I am only saying that this is simply not the case.

And, if one can accomplish even "just" this, it is not a huge stretch of the imagination to consider the possibility that the skills of Ueshiba are not some mythic power beyond the ken or reach of others in our generation.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:30 PM   #314
Chris Knight
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Invest in the program full time? That sounds like a career! Who among us can afford to live like Sagawa, or has the eccentric drive of Takeda (not to mention the wife to manage all the logistical details of running a household while he was out and about)? Unless you are saying that you have no intentions of solo training even just a little bit each day, then you will develop tangible and applicable skills long before you are old and gray. A little at a time, with consistency, and you start to notice the incremental growth and changes in your body. You start realizing that you can "do things" that most others can't, and it keeps advancing from there.

It's not about how many hours it takes before you reach a certain level or surpass another's skills, it's about the process and what it all means for you. Not everyone has to be obsessively driven to attain genuine skills; it just has to be something you love enough to continue to pursue it, and then one day you look back and see how far you've come just for doing something you enjoy.

Heck, even Takeda said that aiki is easy to learn, and that it could be taught to women and children. You should take that as a challenge!
Hi Cady, hope you are well, long time no speak

I probably didn't word that right. To get to an IP proponents level, as a body skill separate to any form etc in my eyes would take more than my current half an hour a day, in anyone's book. To get really proficient at this stuff, you need constant corrective support, at least 1 training partner and a few hours of daily training. I can notice the difference after training daily for 3-4 months etc, but I've had a few family emergencies recently and therefore having stopped for a couple of weeks, it feels like you've lost everything you started to develop in your body. In my eyes, it's a constant practice in whatever we're doing in our daily lives, which for some can probably be too much of an effort, balancing daily life etc.

Ps I feel old and I'm definately already going grey - 50 shades
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:09 AM   #315
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
I probably didn't word that right. To get to an IP proponents level, as a body skill separate to any form etc in my eyes would take more than my current half an hour a day, in anyone's book. To get really proficient at this stuff, you need constant corrective support, at least 1 training partner and a few hours of daily training. I can notice the difference after training daily for 3-4 months etc, but I've had a few family emergencies recently and therefore having stopped for a couple of weeks, it feels like you've lost everything you started to develop in your body. In my eyes, it's a constant practice in whatever we're doing in our daily lives, which for some can probably be too much of an effort, balancing daily life etc.
Chris, it depends on how you structure your practice. if you wait fro the right time of the day or a particular schedule of practice, then it's hard to make a great deal of progress. however, if you make practice part of your daily life movement, then you will be practice all the time (except for when you are in those intimate moments with the missus, you really don't want to do any of these funky stuffs; otherwise, she might think you are into some kinky karma sutra stuffs, which might not be a bad thing). take for example, bring the ground to everything you do: picking up tooth brush, picking up spoon/fork/knife, picking up your child, bag of grocery, and so on. stretch your imagination a bit and you will find that you can practice all the time. it's a "do" right, the way of life, yes? where i live, most folks don't care or interest in these stuffs, so i just practiced by myself. i got ideas from various IP folks and tried to work out the problem for myself. sometimes things worked, sometimes, not so. but it keeps thing interesting; otherwise, i would be bore out of my skull and start to post strange comments on aikiweb. oh wait, i already do that! nevermind!

you already know the what. now you just need to figure the how that works for you. of course the why is important too, but mostly the Y has more leotard women than we realized.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:03 AM   #316
osaya
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I would also like to clarify that I took no issue with your original analogy. It was merely when the analogy was stretched and lost its tenuous grasp on reality that it became an issue, i.e. " the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa" and "strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin". Taken within the analogy of "Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization"...
LOL. Looks I wasn't the only person thinking about potions, elixirs and brews. Check out Ellis Amdur's recent article on Aikido and Internal Training:

Quote:
But what if you desire the vintage itself? And what if you desire exactly what Ueshiba was brewing? What he distilled is among the most rare—an elixir brewed from a mixture of wildflowers from the Japanese Alps and blue-haloed mushrooms. It's an acquired taste, like peat smoked Scotch from Islay, or Dutch corenwyn pulled from a block of ice and poured from a stone crock. To make matters more difficult, the bottle into which Ueshiba's vintage has been placed is hard to pour and takes a long time to fill a glass. Still worse, there are only a few people left who even know how to pull the cork, because Ueshiba didn't share exactly how to do so with very many. He just uncorked it himself, each bottle a little different than the one before, and drank a full draught every day, leaving a little in the cup that his guests might choose to sip or not. If they -- or you -- simply want to enjoy the play of light through the glass, tinted by that marvelous brew, then that, too, can be a lifetime's worth. But if it's the vintage you want, I hope I've given you a few hints on how to find it.

How about something else? There are numerous other vintages, brandies of various character and depth—and there are even some remarkable home-brewers appearing these days, who have cut what may be time-worn, but unessential procedures, and are offering remarkable tastes of their own. You can go to such teachers, and acquire, in full measure, that liquid sun, and if you choose, take it back and pour it within the vessel of aikido that you so love. It will not be Ueshiba's aikido. But it will be yours.
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Old 01-16-2013, 04:38 AM   #317
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Too late Phi, my brother married a Philipino.....so that makes me the uncle to identical twin, half Philipino Jews.....I have it all covered....

Joe calls them Philijewnos
My uncle and my cousin are married to Jews... I've got Fili-Jewno cousins too!

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:44 AM   #318
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
A wonderful read. It certainly sums up experiences many of us who have lived with aikido for a lengthy time of our lives in search for the underlying core, each of us for his own part, might attest to, perhaps not so thoroughly and not to this extent of personal rigorousness, but nevertheless.

After we'd been introduced to the real thing, we shouldn't forget this:
Quote:
The truth is, were one to become well-trained in this manner, one could easily -- and respectfully -- enter any aikido dojo on the planet, and never even reveal -- unless you chose -- that you could stop the other person's technique (as one friend teases me, "Aiki Superman, eh? Replicating Ueshiba's Aiki-Avatar role!!"). Even so, you could train with them, without disturbing practice -- unless you chose -- and yet further enhance your ability at aiki, because taking good ukemi via receiving and fitting in appropriately can be a fantastic training for aiki.[xxxv] Remember my quotation of Ueshiba Morihei from 1921: "Aiki is a means of achieving harmony with another person so that you can make them do what you want." What a marvelous practice of aiki, therefore, that I have just proposed! You will be training in ostensibly classic aikido, and your training partners will be helping you develop your aiki skills, all the while unawares.

You will be part of the community and yet beyond it. There may be something lonely about this, perhaps like an opera singer who can never sing arias outside his or her own home, because his country music loving neighbors think he sounds like a dying cat - or, on the other hand, a wonderful singer of country music in an Italian neighborhood. But this loneliness is, frankly, part of the dues you've got to pay if you choose to remain within the aikido community and do so tactfully as well. Until you have developed truly superlative skills in aiki, you will have nothing to brag about anyway. Why be a missionary for something you cannot manifest?

At your own dojo, or with those one or two training partners, you will be able take your training to further and further limits, practicing, if you will, a version of pre-war/post-war aikido: the best of both worlds. It is quite possible at some future date, you will step out on your own, leaving behind an aikido that is no longer part of your world. I expect that there will then be a more extensive community, however small, waiting. But if you desire it to be an aikido community, treat all who are part of the aikido legacy, and all who chose to participate within it, with respect while you do your homework.
Then we might decide.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:58 AM   #319
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
His book (HIPS) should be mandatory reading.

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Old 02-28-2013, 06:58 PM   #320
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Vantage points

"Unfortunately no one can be told what IP/IS/AIKI is. You have to see it for yourself."

- Morpheus... er wait no ... just those who have felt it.

I am a little late to this party but I feel the need to say some things that have been on my mind a lot since discovering Aikiweb and this particular discussion. Long post, I tend go over some points repeatedly but I am a little 'fixated' on this all right now. My apologies in advance.

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
I think that the number of "views" a thread has had is a better measure of how controversial and/or active a thread is rather than how positive or negative that topic may be.

-- Jun
My Vantage point:

The number of views of these IP/IS 'is your Aiki the same as my Aiki' threads could be for people like myself. I come back to this thread and all the others like it with Dan's posts because I am trying desperately to mine little bits of gold from them because of posts like this are exactly like me: Am I missing something in my study / training of Aikido:

Quote:
Kristoffer Sandven wrote: View Post
... I had read hundreds of posts by him and others. It made me curious, but I had no idea how to start doing this myself. Or how it really worked. Even if there are some quite detailed explanations available in written form. And I was actually worried that if I actually did something, I'd end up spending a lot of time going in the wrong direction.
My current studies through what is known/called Iwama Ryu (though we just call it Aikido) is very specific on it not being 'mystical Ki' that flies out of your mind/hara/finger tips and your partner flies through the air without you laying a had on them. Nor does it allow or encourage 'noodle' arms either. Without going into to much about specifics, we are told, shown, demonstrated to that it is about the correct 'angles/lines' and creating the imbalance in your partner so that no real muscle is required to 'effect' the technique OR 'allow the technique to complete itself'. (Like gravity does the rest for you, not psychic energy or self induced hypnotism on your partners behalf.)

Last year I attended Bill Gleason Sensei's Easter Seminar in Canberra as I happen to fortunate enough to live there. I went as I was told that it would be a good chance to see similar (same?) stuff to what Dan talks about. I have to say I enjoyed it and I could not help but notice that it was not so different from what I was already being taught from my own teacher. I found this encouraging as I do get concerned about 'wasting my time by going down the wrong path.'

I am looking forward to attending it again this year in hopes of getting a better reference point as to what is being discussed here and what I am currently studying as I have had another year to absorb more of what my teacher is trying teach us.

This is me simply trying to find the closet connection to Dan to get some verification of my hopes that my current studies and path is close/similar and I am not wasting my time. Only in so much that I do believe in what Dan and others here talk about in regards accessing unusual power (not sure if this means more than usual) and being able to perform it while practicing Aikido.

Quote:
Kristoffer Sandven wrote: View Post
... Trying to learn anything about this without direct exposure to someone who knows it is, IMHO, not possible. If you do go to a seminar with Dan, however, you will be greatly rewarded. Not a single day has passed since last April without me thinking of this stuff and trying to figure out how it works both mentally and physically.

And now, the discussions here and elsewhere, and Dan's statements, make perfect sense. I still suck at it, but at least I know why and can discuss it
This is exactly how I feel. Without direct exposure you will not truly understand or know. However I honestly have lost sleep over wondering about this. How can I get the exposure? Directly from Dan when:

1. He does not / can not come to Australia.
2. Traveling to Hawaii has already been talked about with my wife and she is fine with it however I am find it hard to justify the expense for a 2 and half day seminar over a weekend. Especially considering #3 and #4 below:
3. It seems he is selective about who is able to attend his seminars and I get the feeling I am not ranked nearly high enough to even qualify for the waiting list.
4. From the concept that 'This (IP/IS) is missing in most of the modern Aikido (as defined by a few to be the current Doshu's) and within my own study I can see that what we call basics is missing from a lot of 'modern / mainstream' Aikido. (I know as I once trained in it a long time ago but I have to accept that as just an isolated aspect as it was only my experience and perhaps only my teacher at that time.)

So again, I am not sure how much of what Dan and others like him have that is missing from what I am getting from my teacher(s) as the Aikido we practice is not like 'mainstream/modern/whatever you want to label it as' but I still want to go and feel and find out, rather eagerly, sincerely to learn as much as I can about what is out there.

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
@Nathan, and others in the same boat, I have all kinds of sympathy for you and none at all.

All kinds of sympathy, because I know how frustrating it is to be told you have to put hands on and you can't (yet).

None at all, because there has never been a time in the history of budo when it's been so easy to get ahold of this stuff. O-Sensei searched his whole early life for it, and when he finally found it on a godforsaken frozen island in north Japan he abandoned his wife and children for months to make a start on acquiring it. Others left the US and lived in Japan for years, studying diligently, only to have their own teachers say that they never taught the good stuff to them. We are living in the days of wine and roses, by comparison.

And IHTBF isn't a one-time thing, either. I recently got back from a IS/IP seminar with a whole new understanding of the most basic exercise and how it relates to my Aikido practice. And then someone made a comment about the Asahi News video and suddenly I could see the same insight operating in O-Sensei's movement.

Partly this is because I'm a little dense. But partly it's because insights come in layers, and when you've progressed enough to be ready for them. So you have to keep going back to the stream, because the water you drink from it is never the same.
Hugh,

I wanted to say that your earlier post on page 3 of this thread that summed up the general views and points of discussion was well thought out and summed things up generally very well. That being said, the one I quoted above made me feel a little disappointed because it may be easier than ever to get your hands on 'this stuff' now with teachers like Dan and your Sensei, Bill Gleason, but even for me, short of the seminar Gleason Sensei has in Australia, I have to be almost like those you mention who leave their homes and wives behind to go find out about 'this stuff'.

Part of me deeply aches to go find out, directly from Dan. You may have some idea what I mean when I say that. I have honestly lost sleep over it, been distracted at work over it (writing this post instead of working right now over it.) Talk my wife' ear off about it , recommend Gleason Sensei's upcoming seminar in Canberra over this Easter to my Sensei and fellow students which she supports as is trying to arrange to come to. This is how passionate I am about finding out if we are in fact missing something.. and if so, start learning it and incorporating it with our training. The reason it is so deep a desire for me is because of the points already mentioned here by others and myself:

I believe my current studies are not too far off as I do not engage in "simple evasion, 'generic blending' and certainly not 'noodle arms' "as mentioned in one post some where in this thread or else where on the forum.

We are shown a kind of relaxed 'extension' that is coordinated with full body movement and structure consisting of: Alignment of the feet in the proper hanmi, the proper alignment of the hips, bending of the legs (not to much so no muscle actually engages so it does not get warm/tired.) alignment of the shoulders (relating to the hips) and through to the elbows and finally the fore arms and hands.

However all essential 'mechanics' of the body aside: I am still deeply curious because I read Dan's posts and more importantly, people from this forum who train with him and report back about:

1. Unusual power (I read as more than normally possible with proficiency is mechanical technique alone)
2. Demonstration of shifting the partners balance with little to no external movement. Done by a means of controlling your internal structure/centre/:stuff: (What is this I don't even...)
3. No inch punch.
4. A few other such things that basically lead my imagination to one tying your internal organs into some kind of rubber band sling shot to generate 'power' not requiring your feet to be on the ground.
5. Solo exercises that one can do to develop this. (This I am certain I do not really have a starting point.)

So while I am happy enough with my studies in Aikido as we work with resistance and have to make things work from static beginnings and 'find the angles and lines' and slowly work our way up to basic movement or 'flowing' versions I still believe there is more to it than this.

That is why I when I read Dan's posts and those who were skeptics on this forum years ago who have gone and met Dan and found out first hand, come back here and post how it changed the way they want to train now. I have to know for myself. Was their training before similar to my own? If yes, then wow, what does he have?

There is this 'Before Dan and After Dan' aspect here and I desperately want to know what lies beyond the correct mechanical execution of a technique.

What happens 'inside' that is more than simple body movement through proper alignment etc..

Are there any IP people in Australia, perhaps in the CMA community that Dan may know through people he has trained etc.. that I could seek out (logistics allowing) that could show me the same thing Dan is showing? Who and where can I learn the solo exercises from?

Yes you can bet I hope to get some answer from Gleason Sensei at the end of this month.

Last edited by Stephen Nichol : 02-28-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:12 PM   #321
Chris Li
 
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Re: Vantage points

Hi Stephen,

There's been talk of getting Dan down to Australia, so you never know.

After 10 years of talking to Dan on the internet (and thirty years in Aikido) a friend of mine and I committed to bringing him out here - fortunately we found other people to split the cost, but we had already decided to split the costs even if there were just the two of us. Sometimes you just have to take the plunge.

Of course, Hawaii is always great - don't worry too much about the screening, it really only applies to a few people who have a history with Dan, and it has nothing to do with rank or experience.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-28-2013, 07:32 PM   #322
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Vantage points

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hi Stephen,

There's been talk of getting Dan down to Australia, so you never know.

After 10 years of talking to Dan on the internet (and thirty years in Aikido) a friend of mine and I committed to bringing him out here - fortunately we found other people to split the cost, but we had already decided to split the costs even if there were just the two of us. Sometimes you just have to take the plunge.

Of course, Hawaii is always great - don't worry too much about the screening, it really only applies to a few people who have a history with Dan, and it has nothing to do with rank or experience.

Best,

Chris
That sounds really great. I can budget/afford a more than reasonable amount to do this... it is only that I would really wish it to be more than just a weekend in Hawaii. I know that is asking a lot considering a weekends worth will most likely melt my brain but being a zombie is a sacrifice I am willing to make to just finally find out.

To be honest, given the limited frequency of be able to possibly get training with Dan given logistics etc, I would love around 5 days worth. Take that home and work on it for 6 months, then make the effort to go wherever he is and get corrections, more direction etc.. rinse/repeat. I sincerely want to know and then help bring it into Aikido as best I can.

Thanks for clearing up the screening aspect as well. Anyway, this is all a wish for now as I will have to line more than just a few things up to make meeting Dan happen.

I should probably get some work done today. Will check this thread later on tonight.

Thanks again!
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:19 AM   #323
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Stephen Nichol wrote: View Post
That sounds really great. I can budget/afford a more than reasonable amount to do this... it is only that I would really wish it to be more than just a weekend in Hawaii. I know that is asking a lot considering a weekends worth will most likely melt my brain but being a zombie is a sacrifice I am willing to make to just finally find out.
You can attend both workshops, scheduled on back-to-back weekends on Oahu then the Big Island.

Mert
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:56 AM   #324
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Vantage points

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
You can attend both workshops, scheduled on back-to-back weekends on Oahu then the Big Island.
This is something I would happily do. I have never been to Hawaii so I may get 'distracted' between workshops and not get as much practice in as I could. Looking forward to it!
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:26 PM   #325
phitruong
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Re: Vantage points

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Stephen Nichol wrote: View Post
This is something I would happily do. I have never been to Hawaii so I may get 'distracted' between workshops and not get as much practice in as I could. Looking forward to it!
i believed the standard dress code for IP/IS workshop in hawaii is red thongs. it helped with ki distribution throughout your body.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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