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Old 02-16-2013, 09:51 AM   #26
David Orange
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
These posts are me riffing off some notes, and wanting people to come along and help me whittle it down to something simple and easily understandable.
I think you should supplement your conceptual models of drums and electronics with maybe a video of you applying resonance in aikido.

As it is, both the scientific side and the martial arts side sound a bit shaky here.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:59 AM   #27
David Orange
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Thanks, Budd.

The idea that the "earth" is pushing anything up - is incorrect. The Earth "sucks," literally.

That pushing up is not occurring. What is occurring is the releasing of the temporarily-stored positive energy. If you squat down, and then jump up - the power is not coming from the earth. It's coming from the stored energy in your legs that you compressed when you did the squat. And the energy is not released up. It's released down. That why we go up. The energy is drained - most effectively - and "in as pure a form as possible" through the decoupling of the body and the earth - through the inverted cones created by mainly the toes. And out of the toes - mainly at a point on the bottom of the big toe.
The earth only pulls us downward. It is the human nervous system response to gravity that "pushes" us upward. This is easily seen when you take an infant who is lying on his back and pull his hands forward so that his weight moves fully onto his feet. At that moment, both of the infant's legs will fully straighten and his spine will lengthen fully with his head "level" to the horizon. Moreover, this is a sudden and powerful movement, almost like magnetic repulsion. This process begins before the child is able to stand independently. It is an unconscious and involuntary nervous system response.

I believe that is the point where the human body translates the downward pull of gravity into the horizontal power of jin. But jin remains within the body and it does not allow the attacker's "energy" to enter the body because its nature is "warding off" or "repelling."

Have you attended any of the seminars you cite, with Mike, Dan, Ark or others?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:29 PM   #28
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Hey Dave, I'm with you about babies. They're amazing teachers.

Here's a baby working his Moro reflex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erythu7xZ1U

Great extension. Creates a tuned outer diaphragm by stretching his skin, which drains and neutralizes the energy in his body. Then, on the next inhalation, discharges the remaining energy by sounding his inner diaphragm - through that little cry. Baby Kotodama. A true master.

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Old 02-16-2013, 03:39 PM   #29
David Orange
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Hey Dave, I'm with you about babies. They're amazing teachers.

Here's a baby working his Moro reflex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erythu7xZ1U

Great extension. Creates a tuned outer diaphragm by stretching his skin, which drains and neutralizes the energy in his body. Then, on the next inhalation, discharges the remaining energy by sounding his inner diaphragm - through that little cry. Baby Kotodama. A true master.
I attended a dance class today where the teacher was talking about some of the same things you're saying.

I am much more comfortable with some of your statements in the context of dance than I am with them in martial arts.

A dancer doesn't need to justify anything they say.

A martial artist must justify his words with proofs.

And it's not good to put up a picture of Shioda to back you up because you're just saying that you understand what he's doing. In martial arts, we can't justify our words with someone else's ability. Our understanding has to be expressed in our own bodies.

I'll be interested in seeing you apply your ideas in your own action.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:46 AM   #30
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

David, I think you've got some valid points; much of which would be under the heading of "framing;" which I'll be including in the tool set.

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Old 02-17-2013, 06:35 AM   #31
sakumeikan
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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I agree with - - without you having to do anything, flex any muscles, etc. Because, there is absolutely no "pushing" involved. At all. In any way. Ever. There is only releasing/draining.

And you'll come around on the rest. : ) This is simple physics. Jet propulsion. Even bottle rockets - fueled by carbon. What's carbon? Stored energy from the sun. The bottle rocket doesn't go up - or in your neighbor's wife's beehive hairdo - because it's pushing or being pushed. It's being propelled ( <--- note that word ) by the release of the energy in the carbon.

When you make a campfire, what makes the wood burn? Where does the energy come from to produce the fire? The earth. bzzz. Sorry, wrong answer. The tree. bzzz. Ooh, sorry again, wrong answer. Contestant number three... The sun. ding, ding, ding, ding. Hal, we have a winner, tell him what he's won.
Dear Dan,
If someone lights a camp fire around midnight when the sun is not shining would the guy be wasting his time since you state that the sun makes the fire light?Sorry your theory is losing me big time.Then again I am possibly a dumb cluck. Cheers, Joe
Ps Ok, the sun may well generate energy, but once generated the wood plus the match makes the fire [given that the wood is dry , and the matches/blowtorch iare working.The wood by itself in an situation where there is no sun is not going to spontaneously combust.Only Moses witnessed the Burning Bush [ not the Ex President ].
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:34 AM   #32
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Analogies or metaphors need to be correct if they are going to do useful work to extend valid concepts. But this -- just isn't:

Quote:
The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. . Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun..... Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.
While the sun is a mighty contributor of power -- the earth generates a great deal of power in the form of heat from internal radioactive decay (~30 TW give or take) and -- more critically for this conversation -- about half of that amount of power in the form of structural energies (~16 TW +/-). (TW is a trillion watts, -- which to scale it, is the power of 10 billion 100W lightbulbs -- and the total electrical generating capacity of the entire United States is about 1TW.)

Structural energies in the earth are formed by heat imbalances, phase changes, by discontinuities in stresses, and the inherently contradictory stress shears between the core and various layers out to and including the crust. And of course, Gravity. And also tidal friction (which is far more caused by the Moon than the Sun).

These energies get released in the plastic creep movements of tectonics, and in the sudden energetic vibrations of earthquakes -- and there is where you should be concentrating your conceptual analogies on this topic -- as analogous forms of dynamics are present in the various expressions of these structural power principles as applied to martial forms of action.

IMO. FWIW.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:01 AM   #33
Mert Gambito
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Dan,

Perhaps it would help if you described how your model works using a scenario. Let's go with an old standard: a push test in which the uke presses a hand to your chest. . . .

Mert
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:02 AM   #34
Michael Douglas
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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If you're reading this for this first time, check the topic on "resonance" first.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330

When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. ...

The energy in your body, in order to drain and dissipate fast enough so that you don't turn into a big overcharged battery - is by "decoupling" your body with the ground/floor. ...-
OK, I went and read that again.

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Very simple, your body resonates - literally sounds various notes - through numerous sources, including movement, breath, residual energy, etc.

And it is important to not allow a build up of resonance in the body. Whatever "collection of energy" that's in the body at any given moment - needs to move through and out of the body. Not get stuck and backed up.

Resonance is moved out of the body by "decoupling." Which I'll explain in another post.
What if our bodies do NOT resonate?

What if they DO resonate according only to your definition of resonate (which we do not have), but don't need to decouple?

What if we DO need to decouple : what BAD happens if we don't decouple?

What if a flat foot on the ground is BETTER (than a big toe) for whatever you mean by "decoupling"?
Can you test and see which is best? Can you measure a resonance, a backing-up, a decoupling?

And for the railway buffs, you certainly mean something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to the REAL meaning of "decoupling", right? When two carriages are separated = decoupling.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:12 AM   #35
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Hi sakumeikan, thanks for jumping in and trying to wrap your head around some of this. I'll be able to present this in a unified work soon. And people popping by, and either supporting and getting some of it, or showing me where I'm not being clear, or sounding too far out, is a huge help.

The wood being stored solar energy is not my theory. It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo

Trees don't come out of the ground - they come out of the air.

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Old 02-17-2013, 01:45 PM   #36
Michael Douglas
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
...
The wood being stored solar energy is not my theory. It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo

Trees don't come out of the ground - they come out of the air.
As Feynman said, the wood ISN'T stored solar energy, the wood comes out of the air ... the sun allows the tree to grow by knocking Oxygen out of Carbon Dioxide leaving Carbon (and water) to make more tree.
When you burn the wood, the energy that comes out is stored solar energy.
The details are IMPORTANT and you're deliberately getting it wrong.
Why? Heck you posted the links yourself!
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:55 PM   #37
Michael Hackett
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Dan, did you actually watch the videos on circle walking you cited? In the first, Kent Howard Sifu does, in fact, move from heel to toe as he circle walks. In the second, Eli Montaigue Sifu, does not and contradicts Howard Sifu, both physically and orally. I call your attention to 1:47 and 9:50 of Montaaigue Sifu's video where he is emphatic about not rocking forward to the toes. Your cited point at 5:57 had absolutely nothing to do with the vertical orientation of the foot, but rather placing the toe in a specific position along the circumferance of the circle.

I don't practice baqua and have only watched a few videos of the circle walking, but all the others I've watched have emphasized keeping the foot flat as it lands on the ground. This small inconsistancy causes me to doubt your credibility concerning your concepts, but I eagarly await your next posting as it may explain the things I find concerning in the first two.

All that said, I do appreciate the effort you are making here.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:14 AM   #38
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I call your attention to ... 9:50
Yes, he says "centered on the heal." The heal is also another drainage point. And I emphasize point. Watch his kicks he demonstrates 2:00 - look how much energy he discharges. It's like a cloud around him. It's that very energy that you don't want in the body.

This actually has nothing to do with getting power. The power's already there. This all about discharging the power - getting rid of it. Flushing the toilet. Decoupling - with small points - on the feet - and on the fingers - which create powerful vortexes that literally suck the energy out.

If we don't create them, then we get energy backed up. It's interesting that when someone does something not very well, we call it "shitty." And funny how we call something good - we say it's done "well."

Another way to look at it - although it's ultimately contorted and requires special shoes, but it works - is the ballet dancer up on their toe - spinning on a single toe. It's even called "on point."

I'll just add this; although I don't want to get too much into it at this point; the creation of vortexes change spacial relationships. Including the 3-D of height, length, and width. But also the 4th spacial dimension of "time." These movements - by coming from a magnetic core field - change the fabric of the space around them, including time. Yes, you bend time.

Last edited by Dan Richards : 02-18-2013 at 02:20 AM.

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Old 02-18-2013, 02:59 AM   #39
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
The details are IMPORTANT...
Actually, the "details" are trivial and don't matter at all.

We're not concerned with details here, we're concerned with core. With source. Not cause and not effect.

Right out of Merriam's - 1. : extended treatment of or attention to particular items.

That's not what this is about. Aiki has no details.

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Old 02-18-2013, 03:02 AM   #40
Alex Megann
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
As Feynman said, the wood ISN'T stored solar energy, the wood comes out of the air ... the sun allows the tree to grow by knocking Oxygen out of Carbon Dioxide leaving Carbon (and water) to make more tree.
When you burn the wood, the energy that comes out is stored solar energy.
The details are IMPORTANT and you're deliberately getting it wrong.
Why? Heck you posted the links yourself!
In the words of a former US president, it depends what you mean by "is"...

My own feeling is that it isn't helpful to talk about "stored solar energy" anyway, since "stored" suggests some kind of foresight. Perhaps potatoes and carrots "store" energy, and maybe the high energy content of seeds might be "stored" for later use, but I don't think trees do. To first order, trees just grow and make more trees.

The global ecosystem (Brian Cox's current BBC series explains this quite well, in my opinion) maintains and propagates itself by converting high-free-energy solar power into less useful forms of energy.

Alex
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:45 AM   #41
Michael Douglas
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

OK, now that your cards are on the table ;
Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
This actually has nothing to do with getting power. The power's already there. This all about discharging the power - getting rid of it. Flushing the toilet. Decoupling - with small points - on the feet - and on the fingers - which create powerful vortexes that literally suck the energy out..
I have to absolutely disagree with your whole idea. Everything.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:05 AM   #42
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
It's hard science. Listen to Richard Feynman explain it.
Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Actually, the "details" are trivial and don't matter at all. ...
That's not what this is about. Aiki has no details.
You were more right the first time:

Indeed, please listen -- Feynman explained concisely what the discipline of science IS--- and what it isn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b240PGCMwV0

An elegant theory is always slain by one ugly little fact. Details -- are indispensable. As it should be...

And sometimes irreconcilable theories are joined seamlessly by some other ugly little fact...

As to Shioda's "big toe" view of Aiki ("ball of the foot" is an closer functional translation, in my view) -- versus Montague's weighted heel in Bagua -- these actually are inverses of the EXACT same principle (in-yo).

Walking (very primitive) is governed by a coordinated set of structural signals driven by the muscle spindle receptor organs -- when the weighted extended leg is suddenly unweighted, the flexor reflex triggers (seen even in infants) -- and which in a normal gait shortens the posterior leg causing the free swing of the leg forward slightly above ground level and without any muscular driver at all. Walking is very efficient for this reason -- though the reflex pathway fades and has to be reestablished in learning to walk self-supported. A related aspect is the stretch reflex. Any muscle that experiences a sudden (esp. resonant -- ~5-10 Hz ) stretch, will contract -- as the thigh contracts when the knee tendon is tapped sharply.

Montaigue is thus entirely correct to focus on weighting the heel in terms of maintaining dynamic structural stability in movement without relying on voluntary musculature -- both conserving energy for the fight and removing structural cues of intent that your opponent might respond to.

What Shioda is doing in rising to the balls of his feet is two things 1) enabling the drop of his center to the ground to power his aiki-sage AND being able to driving off his heels to his toes in aiki-age -- and 2) enlarging the stability region of his dynamic balance center giving him more structural room and therefore more potential power to play with.

The latter you can demonstrate yourself -- stand flat-footed, and bow yourself backwards as far as you can "statically." Then -- raise your heels off the floor and keeping bowing backward on the ball of your feet -- you can go much farther. In fact both balance schemes are NOT static, but dynamic -- and the rising to the toes increases the sway stability regions of the body as a whole by introducing one more degree of freedom, by freeing the ankle from the ground.

Shioda is thus entirely correct in focussing his weight and action at the ball of the foot in terms of maintaining dynamic structural stability in movement.

Both are right.

When we bounce ourselves on and off our heels dynamically in furitama and tekubifuri we make these semi-reflexive connections within our own bodies that both drive these forms of structural actions, and habituate our bodies to both modulate them AND to damp them from causing reflexive action in our own bodies. in fact this normal vertical bounce -- which we naturally damp into an amplitude so small we do not notice it -- is itself the the source of our vertical stability.

These structural sensors are most sensitive at these resonant frequencies -- because a driven resonance can become highly destructive even a low energy. This training teaches the structure to damp the applied oscillations themselves reflexively -- making them simply an expanded part of normal stability action -- rather than simply going hard over -- up or down.

In doing so, we then learn to apply such driven oscillations through the body into the opponent and which -- depending on which phase is used, "up or down," loosely speaking -- causes the involuntary stretch reflexes to trigger extensor (aiki-sage) or flexor (aiki-age) muscles of the supporting limbs, respectively causing a buckling collapse of his structure, or causing him to pop up off the ground.

Because a static moment is simply a potential of a rotation/oscillation -- the structural forms of correct stress tension in the body propagate in a similar way in the opponent to channel his own reactions along the same the reflexive pathways -- by his own resistance causing the reflex to be triggered (or always on the cusp of being triggered), and thus preventing effective resistance along the paths that those those reflexive actions would take. (Kokyu tanden ho). This training is a way of slowing down the action to observe it and its forms and its stress disposition more closely.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-18-2013 at 10:07 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:14 PM   #43
jonreading
 
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
If you're reading this for this first time, check the topic on "resonance" first.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330

When a body is moving energy through it, that moving energy needs to drain out of the body. This is vitally important. This is the same concept as a sink with running water. The water must constantly drain, or it gets back up. That's exactly what happens with your body when we don't properly drain the energy AS it runs through.
Is this literal? I usually do not ever feel in a state of "overcharge" - no do I usually train to retain [any] energy that enters my body, or even allow it to enter my body.

A few misconceptions. We do not get power from the ground. The earth has no power. It's receptive. All power in the earth comes from the sun. See the "Trees grow from the air, not the ground video" in this forum. Even power that's in the earth, came/comes from the sun.
I am not sure about this. Gravity pulls us into the Earth, but Earth spinning pulls us away from the Earth; the balance of these forces keeps us both from being flung into space or squished. Sounds to me like we can get power from both the Earth or the Heavens...

When you jump a car battery, all the power comes from the positive lead. The ground lead can be attached anywhere on the car that will allow the charge to drain. Often the frame of the car is even better than the negative contact on the battery.
When you jump a car, you deliberately create a neutral circuit by clamping a ground; this prevents the negative connection that would complete the electrical circuit and cause a spark - this is an issue of safety, not electricity. Electrical circuits needs a positive line and a return [negative] line to complete the circuit, the "ground" is a neutral line - often not even insulated because it does not carry a charge. Again, sounds to me more like a balance of forces.

The best way to decouple a body, is to provide a structure at the bottom of the body that best allows the energy to drain the most efficiently.

Flat feet: Have you ever had neighbors above you that had speakers directly on the floor - and it felt like the music - especially the low end - was just booming all over the place. What they'd basically done is to turn their entire floor - and the walls - and to some degree the entire building into a big speaker. Feet placed flatly on the ground - or floor - act in the same way as your neighbors speakers on the floor. And those vibrations and built up resonances not only go back into the speaker body (your body) but they also "couple" with the floor and walls. Making all that "one body." A big mess.

You've also heard of a "heat sink" a similar process. It drains the heat away by quickly draining the heat (energy) to a larger surface area where it can dissipate. And that's why they call a kitchen sink a "sink." Sink does not mean to "lower your body structure vertically." It means to discharge the energy in your body through your legs - to your feet and toes - and out in the the ground.

The energy in your body, in order to drain and dissipate fast enough so that you don't turn into a big overcharged battery - is by "decoupling" your body with the ground/floor. The way to do that is by forming a smaller coupled surface at the lowest part of the structure- ideally in an upside down cone shape - that allows the energy to spiral downward - out of the body - and into the ground/floor.

You have something that's shaped just like upside-down cones on your feet. The toes.

--- more coming ---
I got a automated message to post something... Here goes.

I appreciate that you are making an effort to explain internal training as it relates to aiki, or more importantly, aikido. But, I am a little confused by some of the comments you initially make, as well as some follow-up comments.

To start, I bolded under your original post some comments.

I am unfamiliar with the concept that you want to allow energy into your body, even if to dissipate it. Are you saying specifically that you are creating a body structure that is designed to receive and dissipate energy? How is this different then creating a structure that never lets in energy?

Also, my understanding of decoupling is a separation of objects. For me, to decouple from the ground is to separate yourself from the ground...

Anyway, hope my comments help.

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Old 02-18-2013, 01:05 PM   #44
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Also, my understanding of decoupling is a separation of objects. For me, to decouple from the ground is to separate yourself from the ground...

Anyway, hope my comments help.
Hey, Jon, good to see you here.

Well, first to "separate" is impossible. Nothing is separate. Everything is connected.

You've got Dan Messisco coming to your place next week. He's got some interesting things to say about and demonstrate about connection.

In this video Dan talks/shows the idea of decoupling your arms. Not to have them fused to the body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmfFTQPEI6Y

"We don't have to connect with the Earth. We're all connected on a Universal level." - Dan Messisco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbVhoi-Y5Ts

And I swear I've heard Dan say something like, "Why would you want to connect with the Earth, when you're already connected with the Universe."

In Dan's language he talks about "attachment." That's the connection. It's a given. I'd be interested to talk with Dan. I haven't yet. But he seems to be on a lot of the same wavelengths I am. We don't need to ground.

In my language, I talk about coupling and decoupling. It's not that you separate anything, but you change with coupled relationship that's "fused together" to a decoupled relationship - where you are free to move.

If you think about it - our exhaled breath, with CO2, while waste to us, is dessert for the plants. The Earth is designed to receive your waste. That's why it's there. And so many are so invested in holding all this waste and uncirculating, stale energy inside them. Flush it. Drain it. Discharge it. Breath out - it's food for the trees. Discharge your energy - the Earth's there to receive it. Then you are like an empty cup, and can be filled with new, fresh energy.

Nature abhors a vacuum. The second you discharge your body of energy - it creates a vortex for the return of energy. Draining, discharging, flushing -- is actually the action of receiving fresh energy.

In fact, look at a toilet. The act of flushing is done by sending fresh water in.

How many people are doing aikido with moves with unflushed or partially-flushed toilets. I'd call that crappy aikido.

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Old 02-19-2013, 07:52 AM   #45
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Hey, Jon, good to see you here.

Well, first to "separate" is impossible. Nothing is separate. Everything is connected.
Is this literal, or figurative? Later you quote Messisco sensei specifically as not connecting to the Earth.

You've got Dan Messisco coming to your place next week. He's got some interesting things to say about and demonstrate about connection.

In this video Dan talks/shows the idea of decoupling your arms. Not to have them fused to the body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmfFTQPEI6Y

"We don't have to connect with the Earth. We're all connected on a Universal level." - Dan Messisco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbVhoi-Y5Ts

And I swear I've heard Dan say something like, "Why would you want to connect with the Earth, when you're already connected with the Universe."

In Dan's language he talks about "attachment." That's the connection. It's a given. I'd be interested to talk with Dan. I haven't yet. But he seems to be on a lot of the same wavelengths I am. We don't need to ground.

In my language, I talk about coupling and decoupling. It's not that you separate anything, but you change with coupled relationship that's "fused together" to a decoupled relationship - where you are free to move.
So are we talking about coupling/un-coupling or fusing/un-fusing? Coupling implies a mechanical process that can re-occur. Fusion implies a more permanent state. I think this language is a little muddy. What about unity? Or, just separation?

If you think about it - our exhaled breath, with CO2, while waste to us, is dessert for the plants. The Earth is designed to receive your waste. That's why it's there. And so many are so invested in holding all this waste and uncirculating, stale energy inside them. Flush it. Drain it. Discharge it. Breath out - it's food for the trees. Discharge your energy - the Earth's there to receive it. Then you are like an empty cup, and can be filled with new, fresh energy.

Nature abhors a vacuum. The second you discharge your body of energy - it creates a vortex for the return of energy. Draining, discharging, flushing -- is actually the action of receiving fresh energy.

In fact, look at a toilet. The act of flushing is done by sending fresh water in.
Technically, there is both a draining and a filling. Again, sounds more like yin/yang. If you flushed a toilet only by filling the bowl you'd have a problem in short order.

How many people are doing aikido with moves with unflushed or partially-flushed toilets. I'd call that crappy aikido.
Dan-

I have bolded some more comments in the quoted text. Hope they help.

First, as a shameless plug, Dan Sensei will be at Aikido of Lake Keowee, Seneca, SC. He is awesome and I look forward to seeing him again. He is a seminar worth attending - it will change how you look at aikido.

Second, I am not speaking for Messisco sensei, I believe he has a couple students that hang around here, but I am not sure he is talking about what you are talking about. Of the videos you posted, I think he is talking more about what he calls "independent movement." That is moving the self and not being concerned (read connecting) with your partner. I believe I heard him use the example of a spinning punching bag - the rotating bag moves independent of someone striking the bag, yet when the punch makes contact it is affected by rotation. Of independent movement, I feel two things when I grab sensei: 1. Dan sensei is not using some kind of set ground path structure to receive my energy, my energy never enters his body; 2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me.

I believe his direct reference to [not] connecting with the Earth was to imply that mechanical ground path is not necessary to aiki. He moves quite freely when you try to grab him and never sticks to the ground.

FWIW

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Old 02-19-2013, 09:59 AM   #46
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Thanks for your comments, Jon.

I believe his direct reference to [not] connecting with the Earth was to imply that mechanical ground path is not necessary to aiki. He moves quite freely when you try to grab him and never sticks to the ground.
Yes. And I agree, too. It's not necessary to connect ourselves to something we're already connected with. What Messico seems to be doing [in my language] is a lot of decoupling. He's taking elements that have been coupled together - such as grounding, uke/nage, arms/torso - and decoupling them. He's got his "octopus" arms, as he calls them. Showing people that they are free to move. That they are the center of the universe. Jeez, he sounds like something we've heard from some old Japanese man. : )

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Old 02-19-2013, 11:06 AM   #47
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

HI Jon. I'd like to see your new place sometime. Say hello to Mike for me.
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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Of independent movement, I feel two things when I grab [Dan Messico] sensei: 1. Dan sensei is not using some kind of set ground path structure to receive my energy, my energy never enters his body; 2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me.
In regards to, the videos, Messisco addresses the "livenness" of the action -- as distinct from the stiff or fixed forms he also illustrates (and critically) - He is describing the shape and actions of chains and equivalently of arches in the body.

They mirror each other in one sense-- and in other senses they don't. Much training starts with arches -- because they are easier to grasp the essential shape and adjust accordingly. Chains, on the other hand are less easy to see how to manipulate -- people training at first with chain weapons often hit themselves more than they hit their target-- and the same is true of this form of action using the body itself as the "chain" weapon.

The differences are as critical as the similarities -- in arch action the load path shifts instantaneously within the fixed structure without ever affecting the overtly perceived form. Thus, you would not perceive any change -- when in fact the path of load has changed radically.

A chain of spheres is unstable in form and instantaneously changes shape to adapt to loads in tension -- but there is one -- and only one -- shape in which a chain of spheres can bear a compression without instantaneously collapsing from shear though all its connections.

Where these linked pendulums are (like our bodies) made up of progressively shorter lengths from hara to fingertips (or toes) the form of this action tends to collapse in large periodic waves that undergo typical, and repeated, but complex progressions of these changes in form as they dissipate their energy. These are the forms of waza -- captured as a snapshot of the real dynamic progression of transmitting and dissipating energy.

It is no accident that the form of tegatana is one half of this arch/hanging chain shape and that normal kamae including shikodachi/kibadachi is the entire thing. It is no accident that the complex spirals of chain action change axis suddenly but almost imperceptibly from horizontal to vertical, and back again.

How to shape and transmit these undulations driven by torsional shears and oscillations through the body of the opponents are counter-intuitive principles -- but is all in the aiki-taiso (e.g. funetori, udefuri, etc.) described by Ueshiba in his Doka as "The demon snake"

Right next to this Doka reference is the other principle allowing manipulations of reflexive action of higher frequency oscillations (at or close to resonance ~5-10 Hz) and which he called the "Spirit of Bees." It is likewise well-represented in the aiki-taiso (eg. -- furitama, tekubifuri, etc.)

Our inverted pendulum vertical stability is driven by a basic vertical oscillation of normal and imperceptible structural tone -- which we only see perceptibly in people who have movement disorders or age to the point that they lose their natural damping functions that hide this universal and essential tremor in the body.

One can demonstrate the essential relationship of these two foundational actions with a twisted dish towel -- It starts with small twists spiralling the structure at a very small scale. And then at a critical point this shifts spontaneously into large arching loops that then fold the structure spirally at a much larger scale. The smaller scale spirals underlie and drive the larger looping spirals.

The only difference with people is that their limbs are not quite as flexible as the dishrag. They reach their structural limits with far less torsion or oscillation -- and they have reflexive feedback mechanisms that help prevent structural damage from this kind of manipulation, but which can be primed and triggered by using it. These two principles of driven and spirally opposed higher and lower frequency torsion/oscillation relationships are the foundation of aiki action and evidence of it in action.

FWIW.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-19-2013 at 11:09 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:21 AM   #48
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
2. my attack does not affect what he is doing, in fact, my attack actually contorts around his movement. I am connected to sensei, but he does not connect to me - I cannot feel his center, nor move his body, but he can do both to me.
Jon, thats interesting. All the opening movements we do, most of which I learned from Shoji Nishio, are what I've come to call "universal openings." They've been tested out over and over. These are body positions and angles - relative to the attack - that work regardless of the attack by uke. Same opening movement by nage, and uke can do anything - grab, hit, punch, right side, left side, haymaker with a stick, knife, jo, sword.... doesn't matter. With the irimi movement of nage, uke is offbalanced and unable to continue the attack.

And this isn't just compliant aikido uke's. We've had boxers, MMA'ers, Karataka, Kung Fu players, Silat players, and just big guys.... worked every time in every case.

Messisco's going to be in my area soon, and I'm going to try and swing it. Cheers...

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Old 02-19-2013, 12:13 PM   #49
Dan Richards
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Re: Understanding "decoupling"

Eric, thanks so much for that Pendulum Wave video. I love the top comment.

Quote:
Like a bad orgy!!!... too many balls, gets weird, then gets cool, then wierd...
Ha! Sounds like aikido - and martial arts in general.

Reading along the rest of your posts - in bites - and chewing. Good stuff.

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