Problem student!!

Basia Halliop wrote: Well, I don't know, but if this guy really has practiced for a good while somewhere else, maybe he's actually doing things he was previously taught were desirable and practicing in a way that took him a long time to learn to do? Or simply that completely different things were seen as more fundamental in his dojo and more important to learn first, so the things he's spent his time focusing on are not what you guys consider 'the most important basics' (and likewise he may look at you guys and wonder why so many people seem lacking in what he was taught were 'basics'). It's possible that the 'good' people in your dojo would even have been corrected in his last dojo, who knows. So maybe frustrating and confusing to come somewhere else and find that people practice so differently. Of course if he's going to train at your dojo he'll need to adapt, but it makes some of the confusion and frustration understandable, especially if he perceives you guys as insulting things he's actually proud of and feels he's worked hard to achieve. Can you try to emphasize less that he's doing it 'wrong' and more that in your style it's done differently? Sympathize with him about how hard it can be to pick up a new style? Compliment him on any areas where he's strong? It just seems that right now everything is becoming a battle which may make any kind of compromise on his side feel like 'giving in' or losing. Though his comment about it not being a problem if Sensei doesn't say it is is actually pretty reasonable. DOES Sensei see it as a problem and want him to learn to practice differently? If so, he may not believe that unless he actually hears if from Sensei. If you guys are all saying something's a problem but Sensei seems (at least as far as this guy can tell) to be content, it's not surprising he might think you guys are overstepping your bounds telling him what to do.

Believe me if you watched or practiced with this guy you would understand our situation better. Our Sensei acknowledges this guy has no fundamental grasp of basic movement and thinks he the student is too "good" to relearn the basics. Sensei does want him to learn our style better but understands this guy has issues. Recently our Sensei talked with him letting him know he needs to pay attention to the waza and be more harmonious with the other members. I have practiced at other dojos and have never seen anyone except very beginners move the way he moves. Learning tenshin or tenkan movements I think are fundamental starting blocks for any Aikido practitioner. This guy has trouble with very basic movement. No one insults him during practice. They see he is not doing the movement right and give him tips or suggestions to which he completely disregards. This guys ego is quite big for some one with nothing really to show.

You are right this is a new dojo where he did not start Aikido. I think an important part of learning is adapting to different environment. If I go to another dojo, I understand there will be different ways of doing things and such. I will have to adapt and change or leave to find another dojo. It has been a year and there has been little progress and change in this guys attitude. How would you feel if you are practicing with this guy from another dojo who cant do the technique despite you not holding tight, give him a suggestion to do the technique to which he completely ignores you, then crank the crap out of your arm. Repeat every time you practice with this guy. I think this would frustrate anybody.

Of course it would be incredibly frustrating. I didn't mean anyone was actually insulting him, just that if someone like that is oversensitive they may take any advice or criticism as an insult in their own mind. In any case, like I said, I'm not there.

Try talking to the folk in his other schools. Sounds like he might just have disability issues that prevent him from learning. Does he hold down a job, have a family, go to school, etc?

All you can really do is train with him as cleanly and safely as possible. Many of us train is aikido as a self-defense. How unhinged and difficult is someone who is actually attacking you going to be? Barring intentional cruelty from him, he might just be really good practice, if not a good training partner.

Anonymous User wrote: Our Sensei acknowledges this guy has no fundamental grasp of basic movement and thinks he the student is too "good" to relearn the basics. Sensei does want him to learn our style better but understands this guy has issues.

I don't much admire the Marine Corps model, but I have to say it has its place. I think sometimes you really do have to smack people in the face--"You know NOTHING, everything you've done is worth NOTHING, you are starting over with the rank beginners"--to get them to pay attention. If they can't take that, there probably wasn't any way to reach them regardless.

Update: The "Problem" student is still coming to class suprisingly. He looks like he is practicing better with people. I have only practiced with him once (Since he avoids me at all costs on and off the mat) and was still falling down before throws( Has anyone ever seen anyone take ukemi for tenchinage like sliding into home plate before?!?!) and not letting me throw him. I never gave him any help or tips at all on how to improve anything while we practiced. The guy obviously is not going to fall inline anytime soon with how we do things at our dojo.
Now I have some other issues to deal with. I really didn't like the way my Sensei just padded this clown on the hand rather than a serious talk about his problems and its affects on all of us. It seems like they are buddy buddies now despite most of the sempai disliking this student and the way he has done things at the dojo. One of the things I really enjoy about the dojo is eventually we have a mutual appreciation for each other and respect through hard practice. I respect and care about the people in my dojo and I would not have said anything to this "student" if I did not care about my dojo. I dont respect this guy and I am sure he does not respect me either. It really seems as if this guy just comes to practice for himself and we just happen to be there for him to use. Others and myself dont consider this guy part of the dojo and yet Sensei persists to keep him as an active member. I understand part of Aikido is about peace and harmony but.....

Anonymous User wrote: ( Has anyone ever seen anyone take ukemi for tenchinage like sliding into home plate before?!?!)

Yes. In a ki no nagare situation, this is actually quite good ukemi.

Robin Boyd wrote: Yes. In a ki no nagare situation, this is actually quite good ukemi.

Yep.

Well is it good ukemi to be running and "sliding into home plate" before nage even does the technique? The guy wont let you get kuzushi because he is running into you and sliding. Literally. I have never seen anyone do that before. This guy is throwing himself with no help on my part...much to my annoyance. I can't wait for some high ranking visiting Sensei to ask him "What are you doing?"

Anonymous User wrote: Well is it good ukemi to be running and "sliding into home plate" before nage even does the technique? The guy wont let you get kuzushi because he is running into you and sliding. Literally. I have never seen anyone do that before. This guy is throwing himself with no help on my part...much to my annoyance. I can't wait for some high ranking visiting Sensei to ask him "What are you doing?"

what if you throw yourself first before he does? keep doing it until he complains then you said "i'd stop if you do".

Anonymous User wrote: Well is it good ukemi to be running and "sliding into home plate" before nage even does the technique? The guy wont let you get kuzushi because he is running into you and sliding. Literally. I have never seen anyone do that before. This guy is throwing himself with no help on my part...much to my annoyance. I can't wait for some high ranking visiting Sensei to ask him "What are you doing?"

I'd just stand there and look at him as if he was a complete weirdo without even attempting a technique.

Your post #30 makes me wonder who's got the attitude. "Others and myself dont consider this guy part of the dojo"? He shows up, pays his dues, does the work, and listens to your sensei (if not to you) to your sensei's satisfaction, but you are pleased to consider him not part of the dojo?

If he's avoiding you as much as he can, perhaps you should return the favor and focus on your own training, not on how you think Sensei should run the dojo.

What Hugh said...and when I get annoyed with people on the mat I have been taught (through no virtue of my own) to look at myself...how I am contributing to this situation? We can do nothing about how somebody else acts. When we pay attention to our own business which is our behavior, attitudes and words...we can change a lot.

Hugh Beyer wrote: Your post #30 makes me wonder who's got the attitude. "Others and myself dont consider this guy part of the dojo"? He shows up, pays his dues, does the work, and listens to your sensei (if not to you) to your sensei's satisfaction, but you are pleased to consider him not part of the dojo? If he's avoiding you as much as he can, perhaps you should return the favor and focus on your own training, not on how you think Sensei should run the dojo.

I am with Hugh here - sounds like to me the problem is you - get over your ego and focus on your own training.

Anonymous User wrote: Well is it good ukemi to be running and "sliding into home plate" before nage even does the technique? The guy wont let you get kuzushi because he is running into you and sliding. Literally. I have never seen anyone do that before. This guy is throwing himself with no help on my part...much to my annoyance. I can't wait for some high ranking visiting Sensei to ask him "What are you doing?"

Actually, it's not a bad way to practice if you're careful with it. You get end-to-end control over the ukemi without anyone pushing on you, then you can move up to having someone apply pressure (ie, the throw) while still keeping control over the ukemi yourself. Basically speaking, you always want to maintain as much control over yourself as you can - even when you're falling.

Best,

Chris

Hugh Beyer wrote: Your post #30 makes me wonder who's got the attitude. "Others and myself dont consider this guy part of the dojo"? He shows up, pays his dues, does the work, and listens to your sensei (if not to you) to your sensei's satisfaction, but you are pleased to consider him not part of the dojo? If he's avoiding you as much as he can, perhaps you should return the favor and focus on your own training, not on how you think Sensei should run the dojo.

I think i misrepresented myself in that statement. I am not pleased that he is not a part of the dojo. He just seems that way(not making any effort to take ukemi as we others in the dojo are, making up techniques that are not part of any aikido I have ever seen, not really helping with any dojo activities etc).

Honestly I do feel there is ego on my part and I am not sure why this guy just gets under my skin so much.

I wonder if some brainstorming is in order. It seems like there must be some way you can get something more positive out of your training experiences with this guy. If he tends to jump before you get kuzushi, maybe you could work on other stuff? Your entrance, leading, footwork, precise positioning, something else? Maybe even something you don't always focus on as much?

I know when i'm training with someone who's making me frustrated, it often changes my experience enormously if I can force my brain into 'interesting puzzle' mode and start the interaction with the expectation that things _aren't_ going to go according to plan. Sometimes I even end up finding I start to quite like traning with that person and look forward to it, but in any case it helps me get less frustrated.

About the best you can do is what has already been suggested: concentrate on your own training, and don't let Annoying Guy's ways get under your skin. It's as easy as that. The guy isn't a mass murderer, is he? He's just annoying, right? Annoying, you can learn to ignore and live with.

Don't let it bother you that Sensei isn't dealing with the guy as you'd like, either. The more you let stuff like that grow on you and eat at you, the more it affects your training. Let the whole affair be as water rolling off a duck's back. And that includes any time the guy slides into home plate before you can touch him.

Anonymous User wrote: We have a student at our dojo who is turning out to be a problem. He has been coming to our dojo for over a year and is not really integrating well to our dojo. He is a low level student from another dojo ( or several as he states) and is quite egotistical about his technique. This guy states he has a couple thousand hours of training (5th kyu shihan anyone!!) yet has not tested to reflect this and it definitely does not show on his technique. When he works out with sempai, he will not take any tips on doing the technique(Myself included) and ignore any suggestions. During the initial movement he never breaks my balance ( I am not holding overtly hard either) then "makes up" some strange movement which is something Sensei did not teach. He then proceeds to take his frustration on not being able to do the waza by using a lot of strength to do it. When he puts a pin on you, you get the feeling like he is trying to "show" you something and the feeling transmitted does not "feel" good. This guy in turn falls before you throw him and taps before you can do a pin. I get a feeling of anger or some sort of passive aggressive issues going on.This guy cannot do basic technique very well and he really thinks he is very good. When ever I work out with this guy I don't know whether to laugh or be scared as he could be dangerous. This "gentleman" has had several altercations with his sempai already. One even coming almost to blows. I warned my Sensei about several time about this guy unto which they said try to "Be harmonious" on the mat and try and talk to this guy off the mat. I am kind annoyed that Sensei is not seeing this guy is a problem. So far he tries to avoid practicing with all of his sempai and only practices with lower ranked people. What makes it worse is he is extremely socially awkward and does not really hang out with anyone at the dojo. How am I supposed to deal with guy?

Sounds like someone that I know and train with for seven years now. He came as a 1st kyu from another dojo run by my first instructor. He just got his 3rd dan. At the beginning I have problems training with him as he tried to teach me crappy (non-aikido) techniques taught by my first instructor - which was the main reason for me leaving that dojo. As I showed and explained to him how those techniques are crap and do not work, he retaliated by jamming my every techniques. After all these years, I must say that if not for him (his attitude and his challenges) I would not have improved that much compared to some of my peers. It is said that ones partner is ones teacher (uke wa sensei da); indeed he is one good teacher but sadly he does not realise that.

BTW, before he started jamming my techniques he used to fall before I executed the throws. When I asked why he did that - he replied, "Why wait when I'll be ended up on the mats all the same". How to argue with an enlightened one.

True fact, not everyone in class will be a good uke for your tastes, for a lot of reasons. A dojo will have a wide range of abilities, personalities, reasons for training, sanity levels, everything. I think the mix is part of what makes for good training and personal development.

So, you've tried talking to sensei, and you've talked to the guy. Now, ask yourself honestly, have you listened to the guy, and your sensei? The guy says he's got loads of hours in other dojos. Ask him about his experience. Find out where he is really coming from. He may, if his skills really do not match what he claims as his experience, be making shit up. The question becomes "why is he making shit up?" But you aren't looking to condemn or change him, you are primarily looking to understand him. What is he looking to gain from from this apparent lie or delusion? What off the mat factors are playing into this? Is his other aikido experience exactly like the aikido training hours he is accumulating at your dojo? It helps to blend with someone before you can lead them.

It sounds like sensei is taking care of this guy. Does the poor student need taking care of, does sensei see something the sempai are missing? Why is sensei giving the guy positive reinforcement? The student sounds to me like he may have disability issues that sensei is trying to help with.

Bottom line in my universe is that as long as the guy isn't unpredictably and uncontrollably violent, he is a training opportunity. As long as sensei takes his check, he is a dojo member in good standing and is in the club, no matter what I think or what I need to change in my behavior to coexist functionally with him for a couple hours a week. The changes I am forced to make are my training. Trying to figure out why sensei does what he does is excellent training. This is the way, in my opinion, that aikido is a budo of love. Love is freaking hard work, but is always worth the effort.

Well, to be honest, the more I read of this thread, the more I get the feeling that people tend to turn a dojo into a kindergarten, as if they never progressed since that age.
A dojo is more or less a simulation of a battlefield and the best thing we should do is treat it with the appropriate respect before someone gets hurt. There is no place for irresponsible acting inside a dojo.
And when i talk about irresponsibility i'm not refering only to the guy who is causing the trouble, but to everybody else as well.Sure, a student like that can spoil the atmosphere of practice and the feeling of harmony. But then again,an attacker on the street will not be harmonious either, so dealing with a guy like that can be good practice as well.
So in my opinion,the only one wasting his time is the troublemaker.I don't think that one should try to talk to him, or moan to the Sensei about him.If one is a sempai there is a reason why he has that rank and position.It means that he must be able to deal with situations like that during practice in the best posible way,according to the situation at hand.
The way I see it, the different ways of dealing with a guy like that, range from ignoring him (when possible) to landing him hard on his ass (when...needed), and everything in between.
Aikido is a martial art, so we must treat it as such. Dont let your practice revolve around a single person,he shouldn't affect you anyway.

Iam in a similar situation in my dojo. Iam glad ro hear a dojo is not a kindergarten. I want to add that we are people have faults but like the ego, we also should leave the drama at the door; when it applies.

Anonymous User wrote: Update: The "Problem" student is still coming to class suprisingly. He looks like he is practicing better with people. I have only practiced with him once (Since he avoids me at all costs on and off the mat) and was still falling down before throws( Has anyone ever seen anyone take ukemi for tenchinage like sliding into home plate before?!?!) and not letting me throw him. I never gave him any help or tips at all on how to improve anything while we practiced. The guy obviously is not going to fall inline anytime soon with how we do things at our dojo. Now I have some other issues to deal with. I really didn't like the way my Sensei just padded this clown on the hand rather than a serious talk about his problems and its affects on all of us. It seems like they are buddy buddies now despite most of the sempai disliking this student and the way he has done things at the dojo. One of the things I really enjoy about the dojo is eventually we have a mutual appreciation for each other and respect through hard practice. I respect and care about the people in my dojo and I would not have said anything to this "student" if I did not care about my dojo. I dont respect this guy and I am sure he does not respect me either. It really seems as if this guy just comes to practice for himself and we just happen to be there for him to use. Others and myself dont consider this guy part of the dojo and yet Sensei persists to keep him as an active member. I understand part of Aikido is about peace and harmony but.....

Wow! I am that "problem student!" As for the unconventional ukemi that week, my knee was injured while I was playing soccer, and I couldn't bend my right leg, so I kind of rolled over the outer blade edge of my foot and down to the mat. Now, since the original poster usually puts his considerable weight into accelerating his partner toward the culmination of whatever movement he does, I will make no apologies for taking proactive ukemi — it is simply for my own protection. Likewise, with tapping for pins; I have no desire to have injured shoulders, and I tap at the natural extent of my range of motion. If only I had the time to address each of the speculative issues at odds against me here in my absence! LOL!!!
OSU!

Injuries are for sure a legitimate reason to take ukemi proactively, but the person nursing the booboo is obliged to let his or her partner know of the injury. You don't secretly harbor your damage and expect the partner to understand why you aren't letting them apply their technique or even touch them.

The point of paired practice is to give both persons the opportunity to practice their techniques. Taking preemptive ukemi deprives your partners of their practice. But by informing them in advance of your injury, you can make an agreement to train in a certain way. such as letting your partner go through the motions of the technique and perhaps make light physical contact. The partner gets a chance to use proper form in practice and you avoid aggravating your injury.

If you don't inform your partner, you're leaving him or her with a lack of understanding. Just telling Sensei isn't enough. Sensei and you should be letting your training partners know of your injury and how to go about training to your mutual benefit. If this is something you don't want to do, then you should sit it out until you are healed enough to train again without compromising yourself or your partners. Cooperation requires mutual awareness and understanding for both parties.

It sounds to me like the alleged "problem student' is pointing out that the OP is over powering his techniques unecessarily. PS is proactively taking ukemi because he is anticipating damage.

I think there could be some compromise from both aggrieved parties. The OP could lighten up a litte or a lot. PS could let his partner know in advance how much power and force he can manage. I agree with the previous post that practice should be cooperative and that they need better communication.

Work it out between yourselves and try to get along, 'k? That is a good part of what Aikido is about.