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Old 02-03-2013, 01:28 PM   #76
JW
 
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

Chris, I wouldn't have been so verbose if I wanted to be antagonistic and close the door to discussion. And if by "I get it" you mean to imply that my intention was to be so, then you are putting words in my mouth, which I don't like any more than you do.

Personally I like and appreciate the lack of agreement between people - it's healthy and it means we have to watch out about talking nonsense, and try to be clear and reasonable. My point was not to put up a wall, I was saying that in this particular argument (defining precise body mechanisms involved) I see a problematic roadblock, that's all.

Apart from this particular "body mechanism" topic, I think your voice is one of the most important because you ask what is the "so what" of it. Like when you copied Ark's video with your own. My opinion: while mechanistic talk is a little premature, talk about what are the advantages of internal vs atheleticism is not-- in fact it is underdone. But that isn't going to get pushed as aggressively without people like you.

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
(Dan has repeatedly publicly cited the psoas, for example).
Actually this is a good example of one of the things I was talking about. People usually think "using the psoas" means flexing them and therefore causing the joints spanned by those muscles to flex. It's conventional, but if there is another strategy for using the body, then that may not be what someone means when they mention the psoas. For instance, if "ki development" leads to the hyperdevelopment of some large-scale tensile structure through the body, which includes the psoas, then "using the psoas" may mean something like learning to harness the utility of the tensile strength of those muscles (and the tissue connected to them) when they are in a fairly relaxed rather than flexed state.

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
If adjustments in his body are happening, they are virtually autonomic; and even then you can't sense or see muscles firing.
I'm excited about hypothesizing but we should be clear when we are doing it. The fact is we don't understand what the role of the ANS is here, if any. I have fun hypotheses too, like the idea that some of this training may make motor behavior more controlled by the cerbellum, which would NOT feel conscious to us, instead of the cortex, the traditional seat of volitional motor behavior. But, this is all just fun possibilities rather than explaining to someone unequivocally what is happening.

Last edited by JW : 02-03-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:04 PM   #77
Mert Gambito
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Actually this is a good example of one of the things I was talking about. People usually think "using the psoas" means flexing them and therefore causing the joints spanned by those muscles to flex.
True. No one muscle / grouping of muscles are trained/used in isolation during any of the IP/IS exercises or body connection and movement theories to which we've been exposed in Hawaii.

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Jonathan Wong wrote:
I'm excited about hypothesizing but we should be clear when we are doing it. The fact is we don't understand what the role of the ANS is here, if any. I have fun hypotheses too, like the idea that some of this training may make motor behavior more controlled by the cerbellum, which would NOT feel conscious to us, instead of the cortex, the traditional seat of volitional motor behavior. But, this is all just fun possibilities rather than explaining to someone unequivocally what is happening.
Yeah, to be clear, I'm using "autonomic" in the general sense (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/autonomic), vs. specifically referring to the ANS.

Mert
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:24 PM   #78
Mert Gambito
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
[w]e can't adequately explain it to your [Chris Hein's] satisfaction, so there's only one option left: go get a sampling and conduct the requisite analysis by meeting Dan or a reasonable analogue. The effort to form a western-centric model and rationale is fruitless without you working off the same data points as those with whom you're trying to engage in said effort.
For what it's worth, like proving the Earth actually being round despite the prevailing skepticism prior to circumnavigation of the globe (i.e. adequate technical ability to achieve the proof), it'll be great when IP/IS is appropriately scientifically modeled! If that leads to improved efficiencies in the training protocols, then fantastic! Even then, the metaphors will be valuable because the technical explanations likely will, ironically, be too, well, technical and granular to be practical.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 02-03-2013 at 09:29 PM.

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Old 02-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #79
HL1978
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

This is my last post on this topic:

Think of aiki as a balance skill. In order to balance something, you have to let its weight/force integrate into yours. If you don't and push back against it, it isn't integrated, and thus never a part of you. I have spoke elsewhere, about letting pressure go into your feet. If you resist, you can't get that pressure get into your feet as it gets stuck elsewhere in the body. Working on this is totally "un-natural" and counterintutive, because for most people when you let that force get in to themselves, they find that they become compromised and weak. That's why you start out with very light pressure. Once that weight/energy is integrated in you, it is a part of you. You move your arm and the other person moves as well and you feel no resistance. This is much the same how we usually don't feel much of any resistance to lifting our own arms up, because they are attached and part of us, but when we add a 1 lb weight, we become sensitive to it.

If you start fighting that incoming force, you start fighting yourself. Retraining the body not to fight itself and to let that force enter the body is part of why IS is such a slow process.

I think there is a video out there of Ikeda standing on a kart with casters? If he was to resist and push against the technique, he would push himself backwards. Be mindful of this when you practice waza. The next time you perform a technique, feel where you weight goes. Feel how the pressure changes on your feet. Feel if you get pulled forwards or backwards, and if you tend to let Uke's energy enter into you, or if you actively try not to let it go into you.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:27 PM   #80
Cady Goldfield
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

In internal training, there is no "resisting." There is receiving and absorbing of force, and the expelling/expressing or projection of force. To receive, the body must be structured without tensing the conventional muscle groups and positioning that most people would use to brace against a push. Instead, you use "internal" muscles and connective tissues to mold your body into an "arc" (and multiple arcs within the arc) that conveys push-force to the ground instead of letting it push you back or "break" you at your center of mass point.

When you hold your proper structure, and add aiki to it, you both receive and feed/deliver simultaneousl, so when the opponent pushes you, he is bounced back... by his own force, augmented by your own. However, at will you can simply receive the push without returning the force.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:34 PM   #81
Lonin
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2

It is Chinese New Year....Celebration of the spring festival..."Happy Spring Festival to all". Holiday and time enough for my two cents.....hard(sometimes called "dead") Chi is based on your structure, The 'attacking' force gets vented around and not allowed to enter your sphere. Soft chi is a sort of vibrational/oscillation of your weight at he hips/knees....it absorbs the 'attacking' force and the oscillation of weight allows you to 'return' the force.
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