Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-30-2013, 09:05 AM   #76
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I think this is because of Chris Hein's desire to have an "area 1" and "area 2" discussion.
Can you, Chris, or someone else please clearly delineate these differences for me?

Thanks,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:13 AM   #77
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 128
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Can you, Chris, or someone else please clearly delineate these differences for me?

Thanks,

-- Jun
I can't I'm afraid, as I don't see the separation as being a real or useful one but Chris used this definition in his post.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Area 1- How I use my body to do work.

Area 2- How I keep others from applying force to me.
I see these as being interwoven and not disparate.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:29 AM   #78
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,078
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
If you feel such links are so apparent, please explicitly reference those core practices within aikido when discussing these topics within the Internal Training in Aikido forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun
Well, I did, in the post that I addressed to you, and the same references have been raised many times on these forums.

I feel that everybody in these threads understands the context of the discussion (although they may not agree!), and that the discussion is in relation to internal training in Aikido, which is why I was puzzled by your statement.

Shout out to people on the thread - is there anybody who really does not understand this?

You may not agree that this is, or ought to be, a part of Aikido, and that's fine - jump in and join the discussion!

As I and Jason pointed out, there are many threads on the forums that are much more tangentially related to Aikido, but are somehow allowed to proceed without intereference so long as they involve something less controversial (and less interesting, IMO). Aren't the controversial topics the ones that we should be discussing?

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:44 AM   #79
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Chris,

I'm in agreement here.

We could structure the discussion about specific ki tests for example, but in the end there would be no real difference as we would be talking about the same subject matter. Calling it a ki test instead of a push test matters little, though perhaps calling it a push test lets us get away from any preconceptions of how some people may be performing the tests.

Jun,

I repeated the other post in a new thread, as I realized after writing it, that I was talking about something different than what Chris H was referring too and from what Jason C. had introduced in his original post. It matters little to me if the two threads or joined together or not, but I believe more than one poster, including Chris H had requested to discuss some of the other types of approaches in a new thread.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 09:49 AM   #80
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Chris,

I'm in agreement here.

We could structure the discussion about specific ki tests for example, but in the end there would be no real difference as we would be talking about the same subject matter. Calling it a ki test instead of a push test matters little, though perhaps calling it a push test lets us get away from any preconceptions of how some people may be performing the tests.
Even if you stick to ki tests and try to use the more aikido-familiar terms (extend ki) etc, at some point you have to discard that terminology to attempt to discuss them on a modern level that people can make sense of. If we start a thread here called "how to extend ki" nothing in that thread is going to be aikido specific, but you can't argue that the topic is 100% aikido related.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 10:30 AM   #81
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Can't help noticing that since this Internal Training in Aikido forum was introduced, virtually all discussion of internal training has transferred out of Non-Aikido Martial Traditions and now takes place here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 11:27 AM   #82
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, I did, in the post that I addressed to you, and the same references have been raised many times on these forums.
And, yes, I appreciated the fact that you included your references in your post. I am simply asking for more people to do so explicitly.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 11:28 AM   #83
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Can't help noticing that since this Internal Training in Aikido forum was introduced, virtually all discussion of internal training has transferred out of Non-Aikido Martial Traditions and now takes place here.
Yes, this is one of the reasons why I am asking for more explicit connections to aikido being included when discussing things in this forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 11:47 PM   #84
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Can you, Chris, or someone else please clearly delineate these differences for me?

Thanks,

-- Jun
Here's what I get from all this. When we are talking about doing Aikido, we are talking about using our bodies. When the subject of 'internal' comes up, one of the main things that people seem to believe is that there is a different way of using the body (the internal way), this way allows for "Aiki". By not using this body method, we cannot do "Aiki".

So for me, it is important to hash out what this different body method is, this way assess why it may be useful for the practice of Aikido.

My main point of interest in this discussion is to find out how 'internal' is using the body in a unique way.

I made a distinction with 'area 1' and 'area 2' because I wanted to make a clear distinction between body use, and affecting the source of power. That is to say if the force coming at us is the same- how would 'internal' and non internal handle the situation differently. This would be 'area 1' if we change the amount of force coming in, before it gets to us (this is changing the force at the source of power) that would be 'area 2'.

I'm interested in all of this because of the idea that in order to do Aikido with "Aiki" we must use a special and unique body method.

As we're working through the problem, I think there are simpler ways to say it. I personally have no idea why we needed two threads. I think we could combine them both.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 05:32 AM   #85
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 335
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I personally have no idea why we needed two threads. I think we could combine them both.
I think you suggested it yourself in post #61.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 11:31 AM   #86
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I think you suggested it yourself in post #61.
I think these two threads "internal Vs. Ext- resisting a push" and "resisting a push part. 2" are discussing the same thing, resisting a push. That is I am calling 'area 1 there is no reason not to combine those'. However there is now a "floating" thread, which addresses 'area 2', I think we need that distinction.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 11:37 AM   #87
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 128
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think these two threads "internal Vs. Ext- resisting a push" and "resisting a push part. 2" are discussing the same thing, resisting a push. That is I am calling 'area 1 there is no reason not to combine those'. However there is now a "floating" thread, which addresses 'area 2', I think we need that distinction.
Quote:
Collins English Dictionary -- Complete and Unabridged wrote:
resist [rɪˈzɪst]
vb
1. to stand firm (against); not yield (to); fight (against)
2. (tr) to withstand the deleterious action of; be proof against
I think that you're making a case for using definition 1.
Others are using definition 2 perhaps?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2013, 01:45 PM   #88
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I think that you're making a case for using definition 1.
Others are using definition 2 perhaps?
You're probably right.

To me there is a clear difference between being able to resist force (area 1)and doing something to make less force come in (area 2).

I think we started out talking about area 1 and as the conversation has gone on, everyone is more interested in talking about area 2 now. My need to stay on task has probably made me get out of touch with the conversation.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 04:01 AM   #89
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You're probably right.

To me there is a clear difference between being able to resist force (area 1)and doing something to make less force come in (area 2).

I think we started out talking about area 1 and as the conversation has gone on, everyone is more interested in talking about area 2 now. My need to stay on task has probably made me get out of touch with the conversation.
Well, in fact, Sagawa stated quite clearly (and you may look it up in “ Transparent Power” or “Tomei na Chikara” by Kimura Tatsuo), that Takeda’s and his own aiki were about not letting another’s force impinge on you.

Perhaps, everyone else here is more interested in how this is translated into contemporary aikido?

Best,

Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 02-01-2013 at 04:06 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 07:37 AM   #90
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Well, in fact, Sagawa stated quite clearly (and you may look it up in " Transparent Power" or "Tomei na Chikara" by Kimura Tatsuo), that Takeda's and his own aiki were about not letting another's force impinge on you.

Perhaps, everyone else here is more interested in how this is translated into contemporary aikido?

Best,

Bernd
Aiki in me, before you and thee...!!! I've heard this somewhere before...!!! :0)

Where are you...???

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS No such thing in contemporary Aikido...or DR for that matter... :0(
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 08:15 AM   #91
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
Aiki in me, before you and thee...!!! I've heard this somewhere before...!!! :0)

Where are you...???

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS No such thing in contemporary Aikido...or DR for that matter... :0(
As to: No such thing in contemporary aikido... :

Hey Tengu,

I wouldn't verbalize it so strongly.

Think of Bill Gleason, George Ledyard, Chris Li, Saotome, Ikeda, then Phi and then Ron Ragusa and Mary Eastland. To my mind it's also a question of to which degree. Even Chris Hein displays it a bit in his videos of aikido, although he himself, may be, would immediately and strongly deny this.

Take care,

Bernd
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 11:18 AM   #92
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
As to: No such thing in contemporary aikido... :

Hey Tengu,

I wouldn't verbalize it so strongly.

Think of Bill Gleason, George Ledyard, Chris Li, Saotome, Ikeda, then Phi and then Ron Ragusa and Mary Eastland. To my mind it's also a question of to which degree. Even Chris Hein displays it a bit in his videos of aikido, although he himself, may be, would immediately and strongly deny this.

Take care,

Bernd
Bernd,

Most of those you mentioned I wouldn't consider contemporary... ;0) Many of them from what I understand are studying/training in the whole IP/Aiki thing... :0)

Sorry to make it seem so bleak, but I feel its a sad state of affairs due to the way things seem to be unfolding... :0(

Take Care,

ChrisW
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 12:57 PM   #93
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,794
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Think of Bill Gleason, George Ledyard, Chris Li, Saotome, Ikeda, then Phi and then Ron Ragusa and Mary Eastland. To my mind it's also a question of to which degree. Even Chris Hein displays it a bit in
Bernd
nooooo don't include me in with such august personalities. i am just a budo mutt.

you know i have reading these posts and we discussed the muscle, bone, and structure model and so on and so forth. I wondered if we should look at hydraulic system in the body. since we are really "ugly bags of mostly water", wouldn't it make sense to think in term of hydraulic? you know there is a pretty interesting hydraulic system that most, if not all, men have and tend to be obsessive about during our youth and life.

hydraulic system doesn't depend on rigid structure.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 03:16 PM   #94
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nooooo don't include me in with such august personalities. i am just a budo mutt.

you know i have reading these posts and we discussed the muscle, bone, and structure model and so on and so forth. I wondered if we should look at hydraulic system in the body. since we are really "ugly bags of mostly water", wouldn't it make sense to think in term of hydraulic? you know there is a pretty interesting hydraulic system that most, if not all, men have and tend to be obsessive about during our youth and life.

hydraulic system doesn't depend on rigid structure.
Phi,

Even if internal training were all Greek to you, which it isn't, you'd still belong into the alphabet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 04:58 PM   #95
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
Bernd,

Most of those you mentioned I wouldn't consider contemporary... ;0) Many of them from what I understand are studying/training in the whole IP/Aiki thing... :0)

Sorry to make it seem so bleak, but I feel its a sad state of affairs due to the way things seem to be unfolding... :0(

Take Care,

ChrisW
May I dare to ask you to be more explicit?

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 02-04-2013 at 05:09 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 06:56 AM   #96
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
May I dare to ask you to be more explicit?
Bernd,

Sorry. I think that I was being off topic(mostly for myself). I love this stuff. There is a bunch of it here on Aikiweb. It's just a matter of wading through it. Many of those that used to post here do not anymore. That's what makes me sad. Those with more experience, that can or could be a help to those interested in IP/Aiki are silent(whatever the reason may be). Maybe I'm being too negative. The blind leading the blind,etc. So don't mind me... :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 11:09 AM   #97
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Germany
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
Bernd,

Sorry. I think that I was being off topic(mostly for myself). I love this stuff. There is a bunch of it here on Aikiweb. It's just a matter of wading through it. Many of those that used to post here do not anymore. That's what makes me sad. Those with more experience, that can or could be a help to those interested in IP/Aiki are silent(whatever the reason may be). Maybe I'm being too negative. The blind leading the blind,etc. So don't mind me... :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
Sure I do.

Chris,
I owe you an answer.

Trying to not get much further off topic. Jun has been very generous so far.

Bill Gleason apparently never has posted anything here. Dan and others seem to keep silent for a while. May be, that will change (again) in the future.

So far, I have never personally met anyone in aikido, who could see absolutely clear; all were blind or may be up to threequarterblind, not to speak of teaching ability. We all suck.

But, to bring some light into internal training in aikido is a worthy endeavour. Even if our most wished for don't or can't take part.
To my mind this thread is a worthy attempt. No one of us partially blind makes the attempt to lead all others; we simply discuss and see, what we can get out of this all. The exchange of completely differing opinions may lead us to a clearer sight.
And take for example Chris Hein, his constantly stubborn "so what" attitude might further help to not cultivating alien hothouse ideas. Would be a pity to see him quit, too.
Then think of those others I mentioned, they're all posting, and slowly we might come further and further and learn something together.
In this thread we've tried out and discussed, even strongly debated, several propositions.
Why, it's not all that bad. You might chime in..

Take care.

Bernd
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 11:18 AM   #98
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,078
United_States
Offline
Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Bill Gleason apparently never has posted anything here. Dan and others seem to keep silent for a while. May be, that will change (again) in the future.
I don't think that Bill's interested in this kind of forum, but he will be coming to Hawaii this March for a joint workshop with Dan if people are interested in listening to him (see how I slipped that in? ). Sadly, Dan and some of the other internal "regulars" have been permanently banned from Aikiweb.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One Hundred and Eighty RonRagusa External Aikido Blog Posts 2 02-01-2011 09:13 PM
YouTube: Push Test to Nikkyo MM Training 32 11-27-2009 08:22 PM
Push Test 02 MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 20 05-15-2009 08:35 AM
Invitation: Competition Taiji Push Hands -The Arnold Classic, Columbus, OH, March 6-8 Chris Parkerson Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 4 02-27-2009 11:21 AM
Push Test with Ueshiba MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 28 09-24-2008 11:55 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate