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Old 01-29-2013, 11:05 AM   #51
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

A lot of what I'm seeing is- "Our stuff can't be described with your model." I think that's pretty fair. So make your own model.

I think lot's of the problem we are having is that people want to start in the middle, with complex things, and gain understanding from there. I believe you should start from simple places and work towards complexity.

For example we could start here: Only muscles make force. I know, you're screaming "there's so much more in the body", and there is, but let's start here- If only muscles make force, all movements must physically begin with muscular contraction. This means, in the same system (the complex body that everyone is eager to talk about), bigger more powerful muscles make for a more powerful system- no matter what that system is, internal, external, athletic or whatever else. If we can start there, I think we can begin to get over this problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some one can demonstrate something. Well, until we can actually all look at something, together, there's no use in bringing that demonstration up. I've seen all kinds of things, but if I can't show it, and you don't understand it otherwise know about it, why bring it up? We can't all look at it together.

Now you may be saying- "but I know this stuff happens, I've seen it". That's neat, but if that's your main interest, why even worry about talking about it? You already know what it is, so just train it. But if you don't know what it is, and want to talk about it, we should do that.

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:07 AM   #52
hughrbeyer
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Wow. Way to completely blow off an entire post, dude.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:15 AM   #53
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

I hit most of your points.

Your model doesn't deal with force that's inside of the body. If we want to talk about that model it's different then "int. VS. EXT- resisting a push.

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:19 AM   #54
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I haven't been contributing much to this thread because I think the whole project is hopeless.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:25 AM   #55
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

You hit nothing.

If you want to talk about IS, use the model that works for IS.

If you want to talk about external strength, use the model that works for externals.

You clearly want to talk about external strength and can't figure out how it's different from external strength. It's no wonder you're chasing your tail.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:30 AM   #56
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Parting shot, re "make your own model":

Models are supposed to describe reality. When they fail to describe reality ("Hey! Venus has phases like the moon!"), you find a different model.

You don't say, "But according to my model it's not possible so it must not be true."

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:06 PM   #57
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Parting shot, re "make your own model":

Models are supposed to describe reality. When they fail to describe reality ("Hey! Venus has phases like the moon!"), you find a different model.

You don't say, "But according to my model it's not possible so it must not be true."
Hugh, I certainly benefitted from your model... but then I share some aspects of the same reality, beyond semantics and rationalisations. Nice parting shot, too, from a theory of science point of view.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #58
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Wow. Way to completely blow off an entire post, dude.
that because your model didn't mount any tractor beam and energy deflector, not to mention a few photon torp or at least disruptor beam.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:49 PM   #59
HL1978
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

So lets do something a bit more complex, than looking at structure, and far less complex than what I was referring to in the other thread regarding the shoulder. This is something that has been done at several of the IS seminars I have attended,

So if you are using structure, and combining it with trying to "feel" a path to the rear foot as shown in red, in Chris's original drawing. This is the first foot in the door step for IS.

If you try and move that pressure/feeling to the front foot, obviously you don't have a structural alignment to the front foot. Leaning forwards or a wider stance isn't really the right answer to get that path into the front foot. It shifts more weight onto the front foot, but compromises you, in part because most people actually tend to have that weight way forwards of the front foot as a result and the back foot gets very light.

How then do you get it into the front foot without a visible shift and some of the problems I discuss above? Thats where intent comes in, you have to redirect that sensation so that you start to feel it in the front foot. When you first start, there probably will be some visible shifts, though this is really not required at all. I can't really tell you how to do it (its intent! Think that you want it to go into the front foot...), you have to have a partner who is willing to stand there and give you a constant light push. To make it even easier, don't hold your am out like in the diagram.

Most people at a seminar are able to replicate this with a light push after 10-30 minutes.

When you can switch it to the front foot through that mental redirection (the blue line), your partner will instantly be able to feel it. They won't feel themselves being pushed away on the same line as they pushed in as shown in the red line. Instead they will feel as though you are pushing from underneath them and they may pop upwards onto their heels and start to fall backwards. They percieve this as the purple line, though obviously the force actually travels through the body as the blue line.

What is described here, certainly doesn't correspond to a structural model, though it probably shows how intent can play a role.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #60
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Hugh Beyer wrote:
Quote:
Model the body as a sphere, gimballed so it turns freely in any direction. Any incoming force hits the surface of the sphere. If the force is off-center, even the slightest bit, the sphere turns and the force is deflected. If the force is dead on center, the slightest turn of the sphere moves it off center and deflects it. The force can't prevent that turning because the surface of the sphere moves perpendicular to the force, so the force can't counter it. We counter the 50-pound force not by opposing it, but by disrupting it so we never have to deal with it at all.
Taking this point further, courtesy of I Liq Chuan and its headmaster, Sam F.S. Chin:

http://iliqchuan.com/content/matrix-i-liq-chuan

...and a clip of a martial application based on the sphere (and spheres within the sphere...) and tangent force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH8p4486oX8

With a little stylistic tweaking of the outer expression, can y'all see the applicability to aikido throws inherent in that?
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:00 PM   #61
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
If you want to talk about IS, use the model that works for IS.
I agree- but your model was for a different problem then the one we are working on here. If you go back to the first part of this thread, I was pointing out the problem with confusing 'Area 1' (this thread) with 'Area 2' ( a thread yet to be started by anyone interested).

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post

Let me justify those assertions, and suggest a model that might get you further.

The physical models are inadequate because they treat the body like a set of stacked blocks (as in Chris' block man diagrams) and and limit thinking to to "muscles only contract". Yes, that's fundamentally true, but the body is so complex it's irrelevant, practically speaking.
The body is complex, but the only thing making force inside of the body is muscle. So muscle cannot be considered irrelevant. "Practically speaking" the muscles are the only thing doing work. It is all driven by muscle, no matter how complex it gets.

Quote:
Tendons wrap around processes and redirect force. Fascia creates a web of connections so muscle action here can affect the body over there. Parts of the body act like pullys, so a contraction down here can cause something to raise there. Scientists are still arguing about how the body works structurally
Yes, but muscle is still what drives all force in the body.

Quote:
Insisting on a simplistic model of the body will make your inquiry impossible. It's like trying to study biochemistry using only particle physics—theoretically possible, practically not.
Well let's start simply then and see where we hit snags.

Quote:
The way the problem has been framed the problem guarantees that it can't be understood from an IS perspective. The model of the problem people seem to be operating from is that a force comes in, and the receiver resists it (by grounding it, or whatever). High school physics states that if I have a 50-pound push on my chest and I want to stand against it, I need to counter with 50 pounds equal and opposite force. Otherwise, I'm accelerating in one direction or another. Resisting the force, however "efficiently", turns into bracing yourself against it so it doesn't push you over.
[/qutoe]
This is the problem we are working on.

[qoute]That's a fundamentally losing proposition, martially speaking. If it's a 200 pound force, I'll be crushed however efficient I am.
This is not true. The world record for a Squat is over 1000lbs, the guy doing it doesn't weight over 300lbs. He can generate, and resist much more force then he weights. In a squat you are aligned very well with the ground, the body can make tremendous amounts of force this way.

Quote:
Even if I'm not, I'm pinned in place by that force and my own equal and opposite resistance. I might be totally immoveable, happy as a clam, pround as a peacock—until the guy clocks me with his other hand.
This is and is not true. It's also starting to get away from our subject. I say it's not true because professional football players resist huge amounts of incoming force, and are still able to move in relation to that force. I say it's away from our subject, because we are simply looking at incoming force right now, another thread would need to address this new issue.

Quote:
So here's a better model, equally simplistic but at least it doesn't point in exactly the wrong direction.

Model the body as a sphere, gimballed so it turns freely in any direction. Any incoming force hits the surface of the sphere. If the force is off-center, even the slightest bit, the sphere turns and the force is deflected. If the force is dead on center, the slightest turn of the sphere moves it off center and deflects it. The force can't prevent that turning because the surface of the sphere moves perpendicular to the force, so the force can't counter it. We counter the 50-pound force not by opposing it, but by disrupting it so we never have to deal with it at all.
This model is an 'Area 2' model. Start a new thread and we can talk about it. This model is about deflection and not about resisting force. If you think 'internal' has nothing to do with resisting force, and only uses deflection, then all you have to say is 'internal has nothing to do with resisting force'. [See my comment about everyone is talking about different things]

Quote:
Stupid experiment to try this out: Shut your eyes and push on a wall at a 45 degree angle. If you open your eyes, you'll automatically compensate. If you shut your eyes, you'll feel the wall push you off balance, out into the room.

Some implications of this model:

The receiver is totally mobile and totally free.

The harder the attacker pushes, the more they throw themselves off balance.

Because even a miniscule redirection, or none, is enough, the attacker is offbalanced immediately, with no apparent movement on the receiver's side.

Turning develops naturally (which it doesn't in the force/counterforce model), and when you add linear intent, spirals develop naturally. And therefore… Aikido develops naturally.

The reason for Dan's favorite quote, "Not a fly can alight that does not inducing turning" becomes self-explanatory.
More 'Area 2' Stuff

Quote:
Experientially, this model matches better how using IS actually feels. If I'm doing it right, I don't feel like Superman holding up 200 pounds—I feel like there's no push to deal with. It's irrelevant.
Ah, here you say that you don't believe that IS ('internal') has anything to do with resisting force. So why post this in this thread that is titled "Int, Vs. Ext- RESISTING a push????

That's why I am being short with you. You are off topic. If you don't like this topic, start a new thread, addressing your topic, and I would love to talk about that.

Quote:
You clearly want to talk about external strength and can't figure out how it's different from external strength. It's no wonder you're chasing your tail.
You clearly want to talk about something that is not resisting a push. This thread is not about that. That's why I "blew off your post", in an attempt not to "chase my tail". But I did it again just for you. Feel better now?

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Old 01-29-2013, 02:04 PM   #62
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

I'll move my post (#59) to a new thread, lets discuss it there. Jun, if you see this, can you delete my post from this thread, or move any replies to a new one?
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:15 PM   #63
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I agree- but your model was for a different problem then the one we are working on here.

You clearly want to talk about something that is not resisting a push.
Chris,
one question.
Do you think someone who resists a push internally has to be felt as if he obviously resists the push?
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:16 PM   #64
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Reread Hunter's post, whether it's moved or not, and ask yourself if your "Area 1" and "Area 2" distinctions make sense, when you're talking about real people on the other end of the push. How is the pusher popped onto their heels?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:19 PM   #65
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Chris,
one question.
Do you think someone who resists a push internally has to be felt as if he obviously resists the push?
I don't understand the question.

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Old 01-29-2013, 06:21 PM   #66
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
You clearly want to talk about something that is not resisting a push. This thread is not about that. That's why I "blew off your post", in an attempt not to "chase my tail". But I did it again just for you. Feel better now?
Well, like I said in the part 2 thread, you have to understand that you aren't actively resisting or pushing back in any way. That is to say, the resistance that the pusher feels at the most simple version of doing this exercise, is not the result of any additional muscular effort.

That is something that is strangely very very hard to do, as the natural reaction most people have when countering an incoming force is to push back against it or try and push back on an angle of some kind from the point of contact. It takes a while to unlearn this response in a static position, and even longer in a dynamic one.

This is why Mike Sigman wrote in one of his blogs, that most people he has met push back from somewhere else, even if it isn't from the point of contact and think this is "internal". I'm certainly guilty of that in the past.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:37 PM   #67
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I'll move my post (#59) to a new thread, lets discuss it there. Jun, if you see this, can you delete my post from this thread, or move any replies to a new one?
Frankly, I am unsure why there are two threads on this topic. Can you please clarify why you feel the need to two threads on this subject?

Thanks,

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Old 01-29-2013, 10:40 PM   #68
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Also, can folks please explicitly include discussions of aikido in threads within the "Internal Training in Aikido" forum?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:55 PM   #69
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Also, can folks please explicitly include discussions of aikido in threads within the "Internal Training in Aikido" forum?

Thank you,

-- Jun
Jun, can you explain why discussing something that the Founder demonstrated over and over, that remains part of the core practice of some branches of Aikido, and was cited as involving "the secret of Aiki" (by Morihei himself) doesn't qualify as a discussion of Aikido?

For reference:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14991

This thread, on the other hand, seems to qualify as a genuine Aikido discussion:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22243

And then of course, Koichi Tohei:

Quote:
Ueshiba Sensei was an individual who showed what it means to exist in a relaxed state, to possess true ki, and to have a unified mind and body. His posture was as solid as a rock and you couldn’t budge him no matter how you pushed or pulled; yet he would toss me effortlessly without ever letting me feel that he was using any strength at all. I was astounded that such a person should actually exist in the world.

More than anything, what Ueshiba Sensei taught me was that a relaxed state is the most powerful. He himself was living proof of that.

I don’t think there is anyone these days who can truly demonstrate this the way he could. This truly wonderful quality that he took such great pains to develop— not stories about him pulling pine trees out of the ground and other nonsense —is what we should try to leave to future generations.
Note that he cites the push test as an exhibition of what he said was the most important thing that he learned from Morihei Ueshiba.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #70
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Also, can folks please explicitly include discussions of aikido in threads within the "Internal Training in Aikido" forum?

Thank you,

-- Jun
a push is slow moving of a strike, be it shomen uchi or yokomen or others. if we can deal with the slow, then we can learn to deal with the fast moving motions. Hunter mentioned about not really resisting the push which is the core of aiki, that is combining/merging (don't really like the term blending unless i am making a margarita) of two energies: uke's and nage's. resisting isn't merging/combining, but opposing. the idea behind unity is merging, makes the energy of the push your own. how we do that determines how we do our aikido techniques. this is the core of what Ikeda sensei said about aikido techniques versus aikido technique movements.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:04 AM   #71
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
That is something that is strangely very very hard to do, as the natural reaction most people have when countering an incoming force is to push back against it or try and push back on an angle of some kind from the point of contact. It takes a while to unlearn this response in a static position, and even longer in a dynamic one.
that's an understatement. this is so very hard to do. i didn't figure this part out until not too long ago. it takes alot of mental control to override the natural response that we imprinted in our body for so long. just the other day, i was fighting very hard to control my natural responses, but then i realized it created more tension, so i told myself to "let it go and don't fight it!" i feels good afterward. and my wife said "i can't believe you ate the whole pizza!"

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:03 AM   #72
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I don't understand the question.
That's exactly why I asked you.

We only talk about aikido here.

Well, take e.g. a resisting partner in a static position and the main forces affect your partner in one single plane. Then you could say you simply project ki, like Tohei would, or you may resort to ground-path and structure, and a simple vector model, like M.Sigman did, to let a beginner get a foot in the door to internal training. You would expect and feel a resisting force, which is obvious to you and it would make no difference if it were based on an internal or external paradigm.
Are we still on common ground? If so, have a look and try to see what you can get.

F1 = G1 x l1/h1

F2 = G2 x l2/h2

Equilibrium: F1 = F2 and G1x l1/h1 = G2 x l2/h2

If G1 > G2 then the value of l2/h2 has to increase:

Either you increase the value of l2, e.g. you take a step backwards,
Or you decrease the value of h2 by lowering your centre of mass,
one after the other or simultaneously.

Now, take someone with more advanced internal ability, who resists the push, as described in "Aikido and the dynamic Sphere" (Ratti/Ratti), using stillness in motion and intent to create a dynamic sphere, still not moving visibly. You will probably meet and feel a wobbly soft and cloudy thing, with the effect that you can't make head and tail of it until you find yourself on the ground, wondering how that could possibly have happened.

I suppose, that to describe this with a simple physical model will be more difficult than describing how to ride a bicycle. If you attempt this, then good luck.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:04 AM   #73
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

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Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Frankly, I am unsure why there are two threads on this topic. Can you please clarify why you feel the need to two threads on this subject?

Thanks,

-- Jun
I think this is because of Chris Hein's desire to have an "area 1" and "area 2" discussion.

At least we're not having an area 51 discussion because otherwise the authorities might close us down...

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:15 AM   #74
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Also, can folks please explicitly include discussions of aikido in threads within the "Internal Training in Aikido" forum?

Thank you,

-- Jun
Unfortunately discussing internal training in Aikido typically means that we don't discuss aikido as it is commonly practiced at all. There's no way to avoid that though. You shouldn't look at this any differently than a big thread discussing goals in Tomiki's exercises or Misogi. Neither would be commonly considered aikido, but they would be allowed all the same.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:04 AM   #75
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Re: Int. Vs. Ext - resisting a push

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Jun, can you explain why discussing something that the Founder demonstrated over and over, that remains part of the core practice of some branches of Aikido, and was cited as involving "the secret of Aiki" (by Morihei himself) doesn't qualify as a discussion of Aikido?
If you feel such links are so apparent, please explicitly reference those core practices within aikido when discussing these topics within the Internal Training in Aikido forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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