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Old 01-26-2013, 12:47 PM   #1
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Robots

Watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfaAiujrX_Y
Im wondering whether or not its possible to teach robots aikido or any other martial art ?

Whats your take on that ?

Best regards
Lars
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:14 PM   #2
David Orange
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Re: Robots

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfaAiujrX_Y
Im wondering whether or not its possible to teach robots aikido or any other martial art ?

Whats your take on that ?

Best regards
Lars
I have seen some forms of aikido make their human participants robotic...

I have no doubt you could develop a human-shaped robot that could be programmed for aikido-style movement... but for what purpose?

For humane defense, maybe just have a heavy-duty plastic trap mechanism that would just hug them very tightly and hold them unharmed?

Any particular reason it should look like human aikido?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:27 PM   #3
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Robots

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Any particular reason it should look like human aikido?
No, merely a thought experiment on my behalf, since relating to robots is an everyday occurance for most people thus creating an impact on how we understand performance.

Cheers
Lars
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:36 PM   #4
David Orange
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Re: Robots

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
No, merely a thought experiment on my behalf, since relating to robots is an everyday occurance for most people thus creating an impact on how we understand performance.

Cheers
Lars
Well, bots are generally intended to increase efficiency. In apprehending those who need it....what's most efficient while remaining safe and humane? If the purpose of aikido is to reconcile the world, would we create robots that talk people down from bad states of mind, or lure them into containment devices and show them movies until letting them into a holding cell? Generally, a robot wouldn't have to "fight." If it were a matter of "duking it out," the robot could just have any number of devices that could knock you out before you could see them coming. But...who would duke it out with a robot?

Maybe seeing two asimos doing aikido would be interesting.

I noticed from the clip that the robots already sing better than I, so ...

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:07 PM   #5
lars beyer
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
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Re: Robots

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, bots are generally intended to increase efficiency. In apprehending those who need it....what's most efficient while remaining safe and humane? If the purpose of aikido is to reconcile the world, would we create robots that talk people down from bad states of mind, or lure them into containment devices and show them movies until letting them into a holding cell? Generally, a robot wouldn't have to "fight." If it were a matter of "duking it out," the robot could just have any number of devices that could knock you out before you could see them coming. But...who would duke it out with a robot?

Maybe seeing two asimos doing aikido would be interesting.

I noticed from the clip that the robots already sing better than I, so ...
Yes, seeing two asimos doing aikido would be interesting.

Last edited by lars beyer : 01-26-2013 at 02:12 PM. Reason: The topic.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:31 PM   #6
lbb
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Re: Robots

I'm no robotics expert, but one thing that fascinates me about modern robots (as opposed to sci-fi robot images from mid-20th century popular culture) is how much they're not like human beings. Maybe once upon a time the idea was to create anthropomorphic robots and make them move and act like humans to do a function that humans did. Then they chucked the idea of human shape and movement and just made robots that perform the same function -- so the robot has no legs and one arm, perhaps, because that's all it needs for its function. I expect that the function gets rethought too, so that when robots are added to an assembly line, you don't just look at the function of each human being and design a robot to do that function, but you rethink the whole problem and subdivide the tasks differently, without the constraints of the human form.

Robots aren't artificial intelligence, they don't get "taught", really. They're designed to perform a function. I don't know if you could design a robot to do aikido in any meaningful sense. Aikido is a human thing that expresses itself within the human form. Robots don't have the constraint of that form.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:32 PM   #7
Mert Gambito
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Re: Robots

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Im wondering whether or not its possible to teach robots aikido or any other martial art ?
http://www.jeffbots.com/rockem_sockem_robots.gif

Mert
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:00 PM   #8
Rob Watson
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Re: Robots

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Robots aren't artificial intelligence, they don't get "taught", really. They're designed to perform a function. I don't know if you could design a robot to do aikido in any meaningful sense. Aikido is a human thing that expresses itself within the human form. Robots don't have the constraint of that form.
So called 'expert systems' can actually learn. See google cars for an example. Your basic junk mail or spam filter uses the same methods to 'evolve' it's definitions of junk/spam to replicate a type of adaptation. If one believe robots can't learn then they need to investigate a bit more.

The only real limitation is raw computing power ... that can easily be located remotely and accesses over a wireless connetion. This is a primary driver of parallel computing (besides basic numerical simulation of nuclear explosions and weather modelling).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:29 PM   #9
lbb
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Re: Robots

As I said, I'm no expert on robotics, and it's been a while since I studied artificial intelligence, but I don't think that robotics incorporates artificial intelligence or expert systems as such. I guess it's the difference between designing a system to perform a task, and designing a system to solve problems. But this is quite far afield from the topic of this thread.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:52 PM   #10
Basia Halliop
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Re: Robots

Robot doesn't imply artificial intelligence, and indeed the vast majority of robots don't have any AI incorporated, but there's no reason you couldn't build a robot that also had significant computing power or AI...

I'm not sure I see the point, though, or how it would work. Aikido, or any martial art, is designed specifically around how the human body works, so I think to call what the android/robot/thing was doing aikido it would have to basically have a very human-like shape and movement (shape, joints, weight balance, where compression and tension are used, etc...). And even the most advanced androids I've seen may look pretty human and they're getting better at natural-looking movement but they aren't REALLY physically anything at all like a human.

And sensory processing is still pretty basic, e.g. visual recognition... that's why they always get you to type in the squiggly letters from an image when you log into websites -- because humans are still so so so much better at doing that than computers.

And anyway why would anyone want to? There are so many astronomically easier and cheaper and more successful ways of accomplishing the same goal, if the goal is to control people without killing them...

OTOH, given that there are already projects (usually in Japan...) to make dancing androids, maybe it's just a matter of time before someone tries.... Not for any practical purpose, but just because some people find androids cool and engineering departments like to have something cool to demo.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:00 AM   #11
JJF
 
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Re: Robots

Funny... I just talked with one of our AI professors about this two days ago. We are currently applying for funds to do a PhD project on kinestethic interaction between very simple robotic systems and human beings. We hope to get results that will enable us to better understand the otherwise very complex and untangible quality of touch that occours when people train together in order to mimic this in a robotic exercise scenario.

We have some interesting methodological approaches and AI models that we can build upon, and the type of interaction we will do is very far away from Aikido, but it draws on the same types of basic interaction. So.. In a few years I might be the right person to ask about these things

Most humanoid robots still walk in a passiv way - that is they are in balance at all times. Some research have been done in 'Passive Dynamics' where they use the swinging motion of the legs as part of the movement (google it for more info) and a few have created almost real dynamic walking where the body is in constant controlled lack of balance.

The way I see it Asimo is still in this movie struggling with the controlled loss of balance and will still have a long way to go before something as complex as Aikido can be a part of hi's ability portfolio.

Just my two cents... but I will love to go into more discussion about this later.

Cheers

JJ

- Jrgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:10 AM   #12
Basia Halliop
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Re: Robots

I recall that it's only fairly recently that a research team has managed to make a two-legged robot who could use stairs.... Many things that we take for granted as easy because even human toddlers can do them, but they may actually be incredibly complex and difficult processes.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:12 AM   #13
Rob Watson
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Re: Robots

Quote:
Jrgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
Funny... I just talked with one of our AI professors about this two days ago. We are currently applying for funds to do a PhD project on kinestethic interaction between very simple robotic systems and human beings. We hope to get results that will enable us to better understand the otherwise very complex and untangible quality of touch that occours when people train together in order to mimic this in a robotic exercise scenario.

We have some interesting methodological approaches and AI models that we can build upon, and the type of interaction we will do is very far away from Aikido, but it draws on the same types of basic interaction. So.. In a few years I might be the right person to ask about these things

Most humanoid robots still walk in a passiv way - that is they are in balance at all times. Some research have been done in 'Passive Dynamics' where they use the swinging motion of the legs as part of the movement (google it for more info) and a few have created almost real dynamic walking where the body is in constant controlled lack of balance.

The way I see it Asimo is still in this movie struggling with the controlled loss of balance and will still have a long way to go before something as complex as Aikido can be a part of hi's ability portfolio.

Just my two cents... but I will love to go into more discussion about this later.

Cheers

JJ
Good stuff. Just like the two modes of walking (which also fits into modes of running) they have different strengths and weaknesses. One is great for speed and even efficiency but one is great for bearing heavy loads (like wearing armor and wading through masses of armed killers). Running while wearing armor or bearing a heavy load is a very different activity than sprinting or running a marathon (which also requires different methods and training/conditioning).

Another interesting study is evaluating the various modes of motion and the ability to rapidly change directions. As in all things it depends on ones goals as to which method will bear the most fruit. One of my primary goals is to stand my ground instead of running away. I'm stubborn like that.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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