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Old 01-27-2013, 03:33 AM   #51
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Who knows, I'm surprised all the time, but it's something I can't find a reason to believe could/would exist. Either way, even if it does exist, would it be more useful to be able to do this? Does it offer an advantage? If so, in what ways would it offer an advantage? I think the general idea behind "relax the shoulder muscles" has more to do with not using the shoulder muscles at the wrong time, than it has to do with not using the shoulder muscles at all. To me this interpretation has much more meaning and practicality then simply, you never use your shoulder muscles.
I find it hard to interpret what people mean exactly by "relaxing the shoulders". I usually interpret is as keeping the shoulders down and not stiff. I think the latter is closer to what Dan teaches, but I may be wrong.
Anyway, this is one of the things that I hear in internal classes as well as in regular aikido classes. Are these athletic tips that partially overlap with internal training, or are these internal tips that were partially preserved in regular aikido? I think instances of both exist. Which is which? I don't know.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
If someone asked me if I practice 'internal' martial arts, I would say yes. It is through studying with and reading the works of many great 'internal' teachers that I developed my understanding of how the body works. However, as time has gone on, I've realized that modern athletics echo's these same lessons/ideas/practices. I was super pleased when I realized this because it gave me more people to learn from and a better understanding of what I was trying to do.
It's kind of fun discussing wether internals falls within athletics or not, but I don't think discussing it will change your conviction or mine. BTW, I don't think a martial arts teacher has to be internal to be worthwile. Far from it.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-27-2013 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:08 AM   #52
Erick Mead
 
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
In the human body the little ropes might correspond with the myofascial lines aka anatomy trains, like the one below. Those lines all tend to pass through the middle of the body. That would be how (in theory) one could affect the extremities with the middle.

Compare:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...1&d=1215185239

And Compare:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...8&d=1215184421

And discussed:
http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why...-dynamic-3259/

And for those who doubt the significance of the inherent connections between static torsion, pendulums, muscular reflexive tonics, furitama -- and the stability of the human inverted pendulum -- please view the following demonstrations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwGAzy0noU0

http://mw.concord.org/modeler1.3/mir...ependulum.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapitza%27s_pendulum

And more to human scale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgI1mha8z90

Quote:
Arguably the most prevalent example of an inverted pendulum is a human being. A person with an upright body needs to make adjustments constantly to maintain balance whether standing, walking, or running.
Furitama taps the reflexive tonics in the body that provide this stability. People with essential tremors as they age, or suffer certain neurological injuries, have lost the natural and unconscious damping action that makes us not notice it -- but in them we can see it . Aiki exploits these tonic stability vibrations to disrupt that stability -- and the spirals are the product of the fact that the hinges in the body are free to swing in multiple axes.

FWIW

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:11 AM   #53
phitruong
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
First, take a look at what muscle groups were monitored. Trapezius (green); latissimus (blue); biceps (grey); triceps (red). Note: I think this was poorly done. No part of the deltoid is monitored. And only the right side of the body was monitored. Both of these were big flaws in my opinion.

Kuroda Tetsuzan is amazing. He far out classes me. But if you tested me, I am very confident that the muscle usage would be closer to Kuroda's than to the "amateur's."

Notice that the "total movement" is the raise and cut. The first half of the graph is the raise, the middle is the cut.

The amateur has unnecessary activity in his body, i.e. tension.

Kuroda's trapezius does activate on the raise. I would also like to point out that it is easy to see that Kurodo is contracting his deltoid (I would say a rather hard contraction) in the picture of Kuroda raising the sword.

What really is so remarkable about the results of this "study"?

Where do we see the "IP/IT/IS" tells? Do we?
being meaning to respond to this, but was tied up and no, nobody practiced hojojutsu on me. it would only encourage me to be bad.

the significant of the study for me, besides the inefficiency of the amateur muscle usage, was that Kuroda sensei using a slight different set of muscle to do certain thing. sure, some are overlap, but not all. in the previous thread which this thread spawned from, where i gave example of picking up the spoon. before i mentioned it, did you thought of getting underneath the spoon and push it up? as mentioned many times before, that IP/IS involved lots mental aspect because it follows this principle "desire leads mind. mind lead chi/ki. chi/ki leads motions" notice the mind part. if your mind form an imagery to make your body to activate various muscle groups, it depends on the imagery, your body activates different muscle groups, wouldn't you agree? for me, when i pick up the spoon, i activate the same group of muscle as i would picking up a large sack of potato on the floor. and yes, we already talked about efficiency and my answer was referencing the thread where Vlad mentioned about different set of responds. this is really about the "do", i.e. being versus doing. as an experiment, you can ask friends and neighbors and any athletic, including olympic class, to pickup the spoon. then ask them afterward, did they thought of getting underneath and push it up?
you would think, what different would that make? it makes the whole world of different. it's how IP/IS folks use their mind to direct their body to perform a function.

the other example i mentioned was about punch in the stomach. does trained folks crunch their stomach muscles or "inflate" them? i mentioned that i used to crunch, but now inflate, i.e. the balloon man model. ask boxers if they crunch or inflate?

here is another thought to mull over. a push is a pull in the other direction, i.e. a push in the front = full from the back. and experiment to try, when someone pushes you from the front, try focusing on resisting a same pull from the back and ignore the push. ask a linebacker if he/she/it focus on the push in front or the pull from the back? and yes, they do train to pull heavy things, but did they do it when there is a push from the front?

Last edited by phitruong : 01-28-2013 at 07:20 AM.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:38 AM   #54
phitruong
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

i was going to go through various posts and answer individually, but i am lazy (my philosophy is if you can sit down, then don't stand up. if you can lay down, then don't sit) so i'll post my comments here.

simple mechanic such as lifting something isn't simple in IP/IS point of view. From IP/IS point view, we have a number of requirements that we follow

1. one moves, all move
2. dealing with force in one direction, one must also deal with forces apply in all directions: front, back, left, right, up and down, at all time.
3. 1 & 2 don't mean you sacrifice mobility
4. heart leads mind. mind leads chi/ki. chi/ki leads motions.
5. breath power is a must, not a nice to have. and i don't mean sucking winds to live or onion breath.

Those are some of the foundational things that govern IP/IS process.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:45 AM   #55
Michael Varin
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
being meaning to respond to this, but was tied up and no, nobody practiced hojojutsu on me. it would only encourage me to be bad.

the significant of the study for me, besides the inefficiency of the amateur muscle usage, was that Kuroda sensei using a slight different set of muscle to do certain thing. sure, some are overlap, but not all. in the previous thread which this thread spawned from, where i gave example of picking up the spoon. before i mentioned it, did you thought of getting underneath the spoon and push it up? as mentioned many times before, that IP/IS involved lots mental aspect because it follows this principle "desire leads mind. mind lead chi/ki. chi/ki leads motions" notice the mind part. if your mind form an imagery to make your body to activate various muscle groups, it depends on the imagery, your body activates different muscle groups, wouldn't you agree? for me, when i pick up the spoon, i activate the same group of muscle as i would picking up a large sack of potato on the floor. and yes, we already talked about efficiency and my answer was referencing the thread where Vlad mentioned about different set of responds. this is really about the "do", i.e. being versus doing. as an experiment, you can ask friends and neighbors and any athletic, including olympic class, to pickup the spoon. then ask them afterward, did they thought of getting underneath and push it up?
you would think, what different would that make? it makes the whole world of different. it's how IP/IS folks use their mind to direct their body to perform a function.

the other example i mentioned was about punch in the stomach. does trained folks crunch their stomach muscles or "inflate" them? i mentioned that i used to crunch, but now inflate, i.e. the balloon man model. ask boxers if they crunch or inflate?

here is another thought to mull over. a push is a pull in the other direction, i.e. a push in the front = full from the back. and experiment to try, when someone pushes you from the front, try focusing on resisting a same pull from the back and ignore the push. ask a linebacker if he/she/it focus on the push in front or the pull from the back? and yes, they do train to pull heavy things, but did they do it when there is a push from the front?
Phi,

This was an incoherent response to my post.

You are capable of better thought than that.

Why even post the Kuroda Tetsuzan link if you are unable to offer at least a rudimentary explanation of what you believe he is doing?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
as mentioned many times before, that IP/IS involved lots mental aspect because it follows this principle "desire leads mind. mind lead chi/ki. chi/ki leads motions" notice the mind part. if your mind form an imagery to make your body to activate various muscle groups, it depends on the imagery, your body activates different muscle groups, wouldn't you agree?
Do you think that these things are not present in "external" movement/training? Can that even be so?

I keep hearing that there is such a gap between "internal" and "external," but there seems to be a failure to identify and describe those distinctions. Why is that so?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
simple mechanic such as lifting something isn't simple in IP/IS point of view. From IP/IS point view, we have a number of requirements that we follow

1. one moves, all move
2. dealing with force in one direction, one must also deal with forces apply in all directions: front, back, left, right, up and down, at all time.
3. 1 & 2 don't mean you sacrifice mobility
4. heart leads mind. mind leads chi/ki. chi/ki leads motions.
5. breath power is a must, not a nice to have. and i don't mean sucking winds to live or onion breath.

Those are some of the foundational things that govern IP/IS process.
Making a list of conclusory statements is easy. It is also unhelpful.

Where are the explanations and analysis? How are these qualities/things absent in "external"?

If you are unable to clearly make distinctions, how do you know if they actually exist?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:00 AM   #56
phitruong
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Phi,

This was an incoherent response to my post.

You are capable of better thought than that.

Why even post the Kuroda Tetsuzan link if you are unable to offer at least a rudimentary explanation of what you believe he is doing?
get a bit personal there aren't we? i noticed that you didn't answer any of my questions.

Quote:
Making a list of conclusory statements is easy. It is also unhelpful.

Where are the explanations and analysis? How are these qualities/things absent in "external"?

If you are unable to clearly make distinctions, how do you know if they actually exist?
it depends on who those things are helpful or not. if it's not helpful to you, then please ignore them.
i have explain plenty, just that none of my explanation fit into your model so it can't be right. thus, no amount of my explanation will be enough. and since most of my stuffs are incoherent, you can safely ignore them, better yet, put me on the ignore list so you don't have to listen to my drivel.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:35 AM   #57
Walter Martindale
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Anyone who studies biomechanics via force measurement, inverse dynamics, and computation of the internal forces acting on the joints will tell you that there's no really simple model of human movement.
I wrote a whole ruddy Master's thesis on sculling, got it published in a peer reviewed journal, and only barely scratched the surface of it - and it only took about six months' work (ok, I was fitting it in between 2/day training sessions, part time jobs, and other studies.) Point being - it's a lot of work and it's not simple. A fellow in SA did a PhD study on optimizing a "kick" and training a human to do the kick in a pattern that matched the optimization.
These drawings that show a band of whatever (forces?) winding up and down through the skeleton MAY reflect what MAY happen in a chain of muscles, connected through the tendons, skeleton, and (yes) "fascia", but there's no such structure in a human. The "fascia" gain their tension and connectivity to other structures through strain applied by muscular contraction. (strain - an engineering term for tension)

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 01-29-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:19 AM   #58
ChrisHein
 
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

I guess the real problem, is most of us don't want to take the time (or quite likely have the experience/training) to hash all of this out.

I think we can all look at is the simple stuff, and think about how that might play out.

Simple things, like force is made in muscles. The skeleton can aid in taking force and moved into the direction of the force.

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Old 01-29-2013, 01:21 PM   #59
HL1978
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I guess the real problem, is most of us don't want to take the time (or quite likely have the experience/training) to hash all of this out.

I think we can all look at is the simple stuff, and think about how that might play out.

Simple things, like force is made in muscles. The skeleton can aid in taking force and moved into the direction of the force.
Structure allows for a simple model, which is easy to understand. I don't think anyone really disagrees with the structural model as presented,

When we start to get into floating, peng jin etc (related to floating), the more IS oriended effects, it gets considerly more difficult. Thats why when I drew the blue lines, I was referring to multiple possible things.

As someone else said, its like onion layers. Thats why i gave examples of different muscle groups to use in opposition, as a foot into the door of something beyond strucutre, just like using structure is a foot in the door for establishing a groundpath.

So lets take a step back from that to something simplier, but I will address it in the other thread about taking a push.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:15 AM   #60
mrlizard123
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I guess the real problem, is most of us don't want to take the time (or quite likely have the experience/training) to hash all of this out.

I think we can all look at is the simple stuff, and think about how that might play out.

Simple things, like force is made in muscles. The skeleton can aid in taking force and moved into the direction of the force.
So you're of the opinion that it only makes sense to describe in terms of precisely what happens, because you believe that will help someone to understand and progress.

Ok for something simple to give us an idea of the type of description you're after please describe in terms of muscular usage precisely how you would reach up and pick a jar off of a shelf above your head to your right and place it on a table at waist height to your left.

Ensure that you only refer to contractions of specific muscles as I wouldn't want to stray outside of what actually happens, though if you want to include the electrical and chemical impulses that might help too.

Once we have an idea of how simple it is to describe we can use that example of your simple model to move forwards.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:17 AM   #61
mrlizard123
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Re: A simple mechanical model of body use.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Where are the explanations and analysis? How are these qualities/things absent in "external"?

If you are unable to clearly make distinctions, how do you know if they actually exist?
Please also feel free to give us a baseline for description as per my previous post.

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