Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-23-2013, 10:50 PM   #1
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 106
United_States
Offline
Tennis Elbow

Has anyone ever trained (or not trained) with tennis elbow? I have it in my right arm. I am doing a therapy that is helping but it wont go away overnight.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 08:07 AM   #2
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

I've got plenty of experience with tennis elbow, in both elbows. It's like any other tendinitis, in that it is aggravated by activities of daily living and not necessarily great big athletic feats or obvious trauma, and that it easily becomes chronic if not cared for properly. It can get bad enough that even trivial activities like picking up a very light weight can be extremely painful.

If you don't have much experience with soft tissue injuries, you'll probably make some mistakes about when it is "healed", and do at least some of your learning the hard way (if you learn at all; some people are stubborn and never do). I don't believe that total rest is really good for tennis elbow in most cases (maybe even all cases, since the activities of daily living that can aggravate inflammation are so many and so trivial, even if you're "resting" you're aggravating it). In my all-too-extensive experience, the solution is to control the range of motion, manage inflammation, restrict activities as needed, and be patient. Control the range of motion with a good tennis elbow strap, which I recommend wearing pretty much constantly at first, not just for athletic activity - it will provide the right amount of compression and restrict your range of motion just enough to reduce the aggravation of the elbow. Manage inflammation with your anti-inflammatory of your choice -- used properly as an anti-inflammatory, NOT as a pain reliever. Restrict activity by cutting out some things altogether (pull-ups are probably a bad idea) and reducing the intensity and duration of others (suburi is doable for many degrees of tennis elbow, but lots of suburi with a big fat club of a suburito is not). And patience, well, we all have to learn that one with injuries. Learn to monitor the injury, to become sensitive to its moods and to learn the subtle signs: at the point where you feel "ow, PAIN", you've long past overdone it. It will come around if you do the right thing; if you don't, you'll just keep cycling back to zero, or worse.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 AM   #3
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
Has anyone ever trained (or not trained) with tennis elbow? I have it in my right arm. I am doing a therapy that is helping but it wont go away overnight.
I did when I was young, beautiful and stupid. I'd suggest stopping completely practice, healing it correctly and then resume your training. Otherwise it may develop osteoporosis that will permanently disable you of some flexibility.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 08:19 PM   #4
Gary Petrison
Dojo: Aikido of Hilo
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Great resource here, download the .pdf: http://www.drjuliansaunders.com/reso.../dodgy_elbows/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 12:18 AM   #5
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

I completely disagree with Mary with regard to limiting range of motion.

When I was doing a lot of heavy weightlifting I got tennis elbow in my right elbow and it was terrible.

This will be somewhat difficult to describe, but using some simple dynamic stretches for my wrist and elbow, and self-myofascial release on my forearm and upper arm using a tennis ball completely resolved the issue.

I have showed others a subset of the movements I used and was told that they could stop going to their physical therapists because my exercises worked better.

The cause of tennis elbow is in the muscles and connective tissue of the forearm, not in the elbow joint. You can alleviate the pain fairly quickly and easily.

You have to know your body.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 01:31 AM   #6
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 777
Germany
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

I've had this problem.

This really helped me!
For the english Version scroll down until "DEUTSCH / GERMANN . . . . english | dutch" and click "english".
(The menu on top seems not to work.)

It helped also some friends who suffered much more then me.
Like Michael said: Stretching is a very effective Therapie!

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-25-2013 at 01:41 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 02:48 AM   #7
roman naly
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Acupuncture helped me. I had tried a cortisone injection initially but apart from the pain of the needle not much else happened. As a skeptic i waited 4 months until I was convinced to try acupuncture. It started to get better but it was quite a long time until it had fully healed. I did use a strap to help alleviate pain during day to day activities.
Good luck and don't rush it
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 07:56 AM   #8
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I completely disagree with Mary with regard to limiting range of motion.

The cause of tennis elbow is in the muscles and connective tissue of the forearm, not in the elbow joint. You can alleviate the pain fairly quickly and easily.
Apparently you don't know this, but a tennis elbow strap is not applied to the elbow. It is applied to the forearm and compresses the connective tissue immediately distal to the elbow joint.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
You have to know your body.
How ironic; I couldn't agree more. I had serious tennis elbow in both elbows, and got over it using the method I described. Of course YMMV. You stated that you did something that APPEARS TO YOU to be different from what I did, and it worked, but you did not state that you tried my approach and found that it failed. Is that the case? If not, what's the basis of your "disagreement"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 08:16 AM   #9
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,122
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Yes acupuncture helped me also, combined with ultrasounds therapy. But even when pain disappears, you need to be very careful next few months with strong locks on the elbow or weapons practice.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 04:12 AM   #10
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Mary,

I didn't disagree for arguments sake, and really don't know why you would want to argue this. I'm trying to share ideas with people that will hopefully help them, as I am sure you are too. I offer it up in contrast to things that I feel will be less or counter-productive. People can take or leave it as they choose.

You said:

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
In my all-too-extensive experience, the solution is to control the range of motion, ....
This is why I said:

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
I completely disagree with Mary with regard to limiting range of motion.
That's what I disagree with. I have no experience with a tennis elbow strap. I can say that anything that adds artificial support or binding to your body will not help heal the body to a natural state and should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary.

Tennis elbow is caused by making repeated motions in a limited range with the hand closed.

It is alleviated (and prevented) by moving one's elbow through a full range of motion while one's wrist is stretched in a variety of ways. In addition to this, it is advisable that one address the tissue quality of their forearms. One does this through self-myofascial release, a.k.a. foam rolling.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 02:50 PM   #11
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Tennis elbow, lateral epicondylitis, in the acute phase, is inflammation of the extensor tendons at the area of the insertion into the bone. Left untreated, it can deteriorate into epicondylosis-degeneration of the tendon (harder to treat).

I get good results with a form of deep tissue therapy called Graston Technique (instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization-IASTM) and cold (low level) laser therapy couple with a tennis elbow strap, home icing and exercises. The tissue therapy breaks down adhesions and granular tissue and the laser speeds healing. Stretching and exercise re-establish properly lined up scar tissue. Find a chiropractor or chiropractic orthopedist or physical therapist using Graston and Laser. They might also do Mill's Maneuver to break up adhesion. Ice is appropriate if acute and inflamed. It won't help much if degenerative (soft dark tendon with few inflammatory cells).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 03:57 PM   #12
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,741
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
That's what I disagree with. I have no experience with a tennis elbow strap. [
In that case, you have no experience or knowledge with how it compresses and provides support, and might want to refrain from judging its efficacy.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I can say that anything that adds artificial support or binding to your body will not help heal the body to a natural state and should be avoided unless it is absolutely necessary.
Really? Anything? Anything at all? Will not help in any way? And every single person who uses a tennis elbow strap, and has empirical evidence to compare their results when using it and when not using it, is completely wrong about whether it helps them? Are you sure about that five minutes?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Tennis elbow is caused by making repeated motions in a limited range with the hand closed.
How do you define "closed"? Do you simply mean flexed, or do you mean in the form of a fist?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
It is alleviated (and prevented) by moving one's elbow through a full range of motion while one's wrist is stretched in a variety of ways.
I'll not make the mistake of guessing at what you mean by "a variety of ways". I will point out that at the point where a joint is severely inflamed, attempting a normal range of motion may not be the best idea until the inflammation is addressed first.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 06:23 PM   #13
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

A tennis elbow strap diffuses the stresses away from the site of injury. In bad cases, one cannot even hold a glass of water (personal experience). It helps let the area heal while allowing minor stress to help avoid diffuse scar tissue.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 06:27 PM   #14
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

The initial naming of the term comes from improperly execute back hands by tennis players. Extending the wrist under sudden load. Flicking the wrist to impart spin or hitting the ball off the sweet spot.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 07:22 PM   #15
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
A tennis elbow strap diffuses the stresses away from the site of injury. In bad cases, one cannot even hold a glass of water (personal experience). It helps let the area heal while allowing minor stress to help avoid diffuse scar tissue.
Yep.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 07:23 PM   #16
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 809
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

I've hard really bad golfer's elbow for about six years (inside of joint rather than outside). Tried a variety of things. The pain has been so bad that sometimes, the pressure of a shirtsleeve was painful.

What has finally helped is body weight exercises with correct alignment and full range of motion (push ups, for example) and hanging up to a minute for four sets from a chinning bar twice a week. After six years, seems to be finally cleared.

Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 10:28 PM   #17
Dave Gallagher
Dojo: Shobukan Dojo, St.Louis
Location: St.Louis
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 106
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Thanks to all who have replied. I am having good results so far with wrist bending with arm extended and wearing a band on my forearm neat the elbow.
I have heard of the hanging therapy mentioned by Amdur sensei and will give it a try.
So far so good. It's not gone yet but much better.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 10:44 PM   #18
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Thank you, Ellis.

Golfer's elbow and tennis elbow are obviously related conditions. Both can cause intense pain. I know that from personal experience.

These conditions are not natural. Natural movement is all that you need to eliminate them for good.

Gimmicks, gadgets, and ibuprofen can't do that.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 10:48 PM   #19
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
A tennis elbow strap diffuses the stresses away from the site of injury. In bad cases, one cannot even hold a glass of water (personal experience). It helps let the area heal while allowing minor stress to help avoid diffuse scar tissue.
John,

Where is the site of injury?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 04:26 PM   #20
KEM
Dojo: Aikido of Gainesville/ Gainesville, FL
Location: Gainesville/FL
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: Tennis Elbow

I had this when I started training more than 4 times/week. For me it was aggravated by kotegaeshi and sometimes shihonage. I used 'kiatsu' a pressure wrap and relaxed intensity in training and it slowly improved. My physician called it 'golfers elbow' and said it is common in certain sports and usually the 'athlete' won't rest properly so most just find a therapeutic Tx and alteration in the activity. I have to wonder if i built up enough scar tissue to keep everything stuck together better. I know that is not traditional thinking...just sayin'! Perhaps we build scar tissue in these areas for a reason?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Elbow Power Chris Li Language 176 06-01-2012 07:31 AM
Hyper extended elbow itaborai83 Training 8 07-11-2011 09:37 AM
Help with an injured elbow Ryan Bigelow Training 6 02-01-2005 04:59 PM
Tendonitis in the elbow Eric Joyce General 7 09-07-2003 07:58 PM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:23 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate