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Old 01-19-2013, 09:47 PM   #26
phitruong
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
1. I've drunk the internal Kool-Aide, I've experienced it from Dan, Mike, Ark, and many others, I practice it, I'm with you guys. This isn't an attack on any internal training premise or training method.
I didn't thought you were attacking, but just stating valid view points.

Quote:
So you could also rephrase what Phi was saying and instead say "If folks just listened to what the instructor is saying, they would imitate the wrong things."
it worst than that. folks have to use all three senses: seeing the action, hearing the discription of the actions, and feeling the action. even that is still not enough. it's a miracle that anyone got the stuffs from Ueshiba at all. he could have told them about recipe for miso soup for all we know.

Last edited by phitruong : 01-19-2013 at 09:53 PM.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:53 PM   #27
phitruong
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Josh Lerner wrote: View Post

So this is now an even better illustration of the dangers of using out-of-context video clips; even though I was correct in my technical analysis of what he was physically doing, I was wrong about what he was trying to get across because I heard "use your whole body" in isolation from everything that went on for hours or days leading up to that moment, so both Phi and I misunderstood what point he was trying to make.

Josh
good info Josh. i ran into that particular demonstration a few years ago, so my frame of reference was different when i looked at the demo. my timing was off.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:29 PM   #28
Matt Fisher
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
I've been contacted via PM by someone who wishes to remain anonymous but who was at that particular seminar, which was in 2000. They have given me permission to paraphrase their PM to use in this post.

The theme of the seminar was, in fact, how to change the angle at the point of contact to weaken the uke's upper body by either rotating (i.e. supinating and pronating) your forearm or by bending your elbow to disengage their shoulder.

(SNIP)

Josh
Josh,

Thank you for the additional comment. The information you provide fits well with my memories of what Ikeda Sensei was teaching at that time...your sentence "how to change the angle at the point of contact to weaken uke's upper body" is something I remember Ikeda Sensei talking about a LOT in those years.

Your cautionary words about watching video clips out of context make perfect sense to me.

Regards,

Matt
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Old 01-20-2013, 03:55 AM   #29
Mert Gambito
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido . . . that can help illuminate the path for those of us who don't really have the opportunity to have direct contact with this type of work at this time . . .
My understanding is that Bill Gleason will be visiting Australia on a regular or semi-regular basis (at least once a year) going forward. Here's the link to the webpage discussing an upcoming gasshuku featuring Bill in Canberra: http://www.aikidoutas.org.au/.

Bill is well acquainted with Dan Harden's training model, and one or more of the Australian folks who've trained with Dan may be at the gasshuku as well.

As for IP/IS training videos, feel free to check out what's been offered up (there are a few short videos of Bill on YouTube that touch on some aspects of IP/IS body skills). Just be prepared to have to unlearn then relearn many if not all key aspects of a given method, if/when you meet a qualified teacher of that method.

Mert
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:19 PM   #30
hughrbeyer
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

Actually, Gleason Sensei and Dan will be teaching together in Hawaii, then Gleason is going on to Oz.

There are a few videos of Sensei on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/user/shobuaikidoofboston -- they're a year old, but good partial summary of how Sensei was building IP in to his Aikido at that time.

The trouble, of course, is that the train never stops moving...

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:02 AM   #31
Alex Megann
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I would like to take the discussion one step further and separate the matter of what is being demonstrated from the description of what is being demonstrated. You can imagine Mr Ikeda simply demonstrating what he is doing with no commentary, but it would still not necessarily be a demonstration of IP. My point is that even if you take away the commentary, you are still left with the problem of the gap between what people think they are doing and what they are actually doing and this would apply to others besides Mr Ikeda. It might apply to Morihei Ueshiba, for example.
Best wishes,
Hi Peter,

I think this applies particularly to one old teacher of yours: Kanetsuka Sensei. I believe he has a high level of this kind of skill himself, but - will all due respect to him - I think he struggles constantly to explain what he is doing: he uses a whole arsenal of metaphors, as well as many explanations in terms of physics (for which I feel I am a perpetual disappointment to him in my failure to clarify them), but the class is often more confused than edified.

I remarked to him a year or so ago that he never explains to us what precisely he is doing to his uke, and his only partially helpful reply was something along the lines of "tori and uke are one, so uke moves". He has also said things like "I swallow my partner into my hara, and then sick him out again" and "cut your partner down to his knees then back up again", but these are again hints, rather than concrete instructions. I am starting to understand a little of this kind of imagery, but all the same I often wish he would tell us what he feels in his uke's body when he moves (perhaps in the way that Ikeda Sensei says "find partner's tailbone").

Feeling his aikido in person tends to be a completely different experience from listening to him teach (and to some extent from watching him demonstrate): trying to work out from this limited exposure what he is doing - and also what he is not doing - is fascinating and frustrating in equal measures. As Phi says, the experience of holding a teacher's arm can give an altogether different impression than watching someone else do it.

What he has been saying in recent years, which I am taking more and more seriously, is that his aikido is based on just a few solo exercises: torifune, furitama, qigong-style arm-swinging, as well as the makko-ho stretches. He also used to practise a sequence of suburi (either with a bokken or shinai, or empty-handed) from seize, kiza, sonkyo and kibadachi stances. Nevertheless, he still teaches even these exercises mainly in the old style of demonstration and repetition, with little in the way of explanation of body structure and alignment. He often cites the model of "stealing" the art from a teacher: he admits that he is only just understanding in recent years some things he watched his own teacher do forty or fifty years ago, and perhaps he is expecting us to absorb these things almost passively and then process them unconsciously in the same way.

Alluding back to the subject of this thread, he has released teaching videos over the years which are very useful in learning the form of his aikido, but these are purely formal demonstrations of technique with no explanations at all.

Alex
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:52 PM   #32
Robert Cowham
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I think this applies particularly to one old teacher of yours: Kanetsuka Sensei. I believe he has a high level of this kind of skill himself, but - will all due respect to him - I think he struggles constantly to explain what he is doing: he uses a whole arsenal of metaphors, as well as many explanations in terms of physics (for which I feel I am a perpetual disappointment to him in my failure to clarify them), but the class is often more confused than edified.
It's been quite a while since I last had a class with Kanetsuka sensei - maybe I should have another look!

It's a classic problem and one that all teachers fall in to: doing one thing and explaining something else - and (most of the time!) without meaning to. I try to listen to explanations as well as watch and feel, but pretty much always give precedence to what I see and feel!

There are advantages of learning from senior westerners for example (if you are western yourself of course) - they can explain things differently which might help with common culture/language etc - at least there are fewer barriers for transmission. This assumes they have properly understood things of course but I believe there are increasing numbers who have, or at least have very significant knowledge.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:43 PM   #33
hughrbeyer
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
It's a classic problem and one that all teachers fall in to: doing one thing and explaining something else - and (most of the time!) without meaning to. I try to listen to explanations as well as watch and feel, but pretty much always give precedence to what I see and feel!
Excuse me, but this set off my bull meter. Really? All (even "most") teachers can't explain what they do?

I've known teachers who don't. But those who are good, and try, but can't?

Never met one.

(Edit: Well, there is the discussion of Ikeda Sensei upthread. But he's explaining what he's doing with the vocabulary he has available. He's not doing one thing and saying another.)

Last edited by hughrbeyer : 01-21-2013 at 07:51 PM.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:35 AM   #34
osaya
 
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
My understanding is that Bill Gleason will be visiting Australia on a regular or semi-regular basis (at least once a year) going forward. Here's the link to the webpage discussing an upcoming gasshuku featuring Bill in Canberra: http://www.aikidoutas.org.au/.
Thanks Mert! That gasshuku is definitely on my radar.

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Actually, Gleason Sensei and Dan will be teaching together in Hawaii, then Gleason is going on to Oz.

There are a few videos of Sensei on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/user/shobuaikidoofboston -- they're a year old, but good partial summary of how Sensei was building IP in to his Aikido at that time.

The trouble, of course, is that the train never stops moving...
awesome resource. that's what i'm talking about. thanks Hugh!
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:48 PM   #35
Robert Cowham
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Excuse me, but this set off my bull meter. Really? All (even "most") teachers can't explain what they do?

I've known teachers who don't. But those who are good, and try, but can't?

Never met one.

(Edit: Well, there is the discussion of Ikeda Sensei upthread. But he's explaining what he's doing with the vocabulary he has available. He's not doing one thing and saying another.)
I should clarify that I didn't mean that good teachers *always* fail to explain well what they are doing, but that they *sometimes* explain something different to what they are actually doing, without necessarily realising it.

In my experience this occurs sufficiently often that it is worth pointing out (could it even be "all teachers some of the time, some teachers ... - maybe an exaggeration!). Or maybe it is all my fault in that I understand something different about what and how they are doing something than what they explain.

Learning by observation and feeling is a very useful skill which ought perhaps to be more prized than it is. Having said that, I also value very highly some explanations, and have found that I can learn much more sometimes from teacher X who is (in aikido terms) lower ranked and perhaps less skilled than teacher Y, because teacher X explains in a way that makes sense to me, whereas teacher Y has to overcome perhaps a language and cultural barrier. I agree with George Ledyard that there are some truly excellent western teachers who have great understanding and can explain things really well, have a great track record of teaching, and yet aren't valued as highly as they should be (as evidenced by attendance at their seminars for example).

Does that make sense? If it's still all bull, then maybe just check my surname and consider it hereditary
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:31 PM   #36
hughrbeyer
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

Huh. I have to say, my experience is more that the teacher says "X! Do X!" and then months later I realize, "Damn! It works if I just do X! Why didn't anyone tell me that?"

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:16 AM   #37
Alex Megann
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Huh. I have to say, my experience is more that the teacher says "X! Do X!" and then months later I realize, "Damn! It works if I just do X! Why didn't anyone tell me that?"
I think this is very true, but unless you are some kind of prodigy it takes a lot of training before you can "just do X". For instance, when Ikeda Sensei says "move partner's tailbone", most people in the class think "what the hell?", but I am just getting to a stage where I kind of understand what this involves - not that I can do it reliably with an arbitrary partner.

In the same way, Kanetsuka Sensei has said "cut partner's knees": I am now getting an inkling of how this is even possible when the partner is holding you by the arm. When he does shihonage on me I can feel that he is doing just this - with anyone else, my arm starts to move first, but with him my feet move first. In this case I can now see that the best way to accomplish this is simply to "cut partner's knees".

I think this is similar to Michelangelo's famous statement about starting with a block of marble and being able to see the horse inside it that he will eventually carve, and then chipping away "everything that is not horse".

Alex
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:18 AM   #38
Erick Mead
 
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
My point is that even if you take away the commentary, you are still left with the problem of the gap between what people think they are doing and what they are actually doing and this would apply to others besides Mr Ikeda. It might apply to Morihei Ueshiba, for example.
It might. In fact it almost certainly does -- for the same reasons -- and the present efforts are not at all immune to the same problem.

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
A tangible lexicon for Internal Training, particularly for Western students, is only very recent, as in the past 10 years or so, largely thanks to a very small handful of individuals who have labored to create a comprehensive and transmittable language that is directly connected to physical training.
.. and as such -- is subject to the exact SAME forms of error in idiosyncratic perception and choice of verbal analogies (however systematic) that plagued Ueshiba, Tohei, Saito, Abe, and as noted, Ikeda as well. And this is true regardless of its success in relating the demonstrated skill -- ONCE DEMONSTRATED. It provides no guide to observe --indpendently -- the results of a properly objective and empirical concept -- which, if properly conceived should be observable, in any setting, by anyone -- subject only to their conceptual grasp and ability to observe critically.

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The sayings and written teachings themselves are usually deeply couched in poetic, metaphoric language that is impossible to decipher without a guide who is willing to do so. Hence, all of the misunderstandings that have arisen from the doka and other sources of wisdom whose meanings have remained, until recently, largely hidden.
.. and this latest effort -- though divorced from poetic and mythic image -- is no less simply an attempt to find other forms of analogous images for descriptive purposes : e.g. --

Quote:
"Do <this> [applying action]."
"<This> is [insert descriptive <name of action>]."
"<Name of action> is [insert <analogy> here.]"
In other words, whether we are using loose mythological concrete images or loosely analogized mechanical images -- it is and will remain simply a system of labels for a demonstrated action. Ueshiba's was such, and so far as is disclosed by those pursuing the current endeavor -- it is not different except in their preferred basis for analogies in choosing their labels.

It is not a conceptual system tied to empirically objective mechanics, bio-mechanics or anatomy. Only working out the empirically correct ties to objectively understood mechanisms and anatomical statics and dynamics will put the subject on truly different and less arbitrary footing.

Why would one choose any other "lexicon" than a proven successful lexicon of physical and mechanical concepts worked out over the last 500 years. Biomechanics is younger -- but hardly less empirical at this point. The Chinese and Japanese have followed us in applying this kind of knowladge in every other field of physical endeavor -- why are we -- in our efforts -- so devoted to conceptual approaches that the originators of these applied physical arts have systematically abandoned in every other ?

There has been resistance to this effort to define more rigorously the correct conceptual framework -- though why, I cannot imagine. Many seem to actively deny the usefulness of a conceptual understanding as though it is irrelevant -- even though their own choices of language in analogy imply conceptual frameworks -- rightly or wrongly.

It seems to me better that we should proceed much more explicitly, objectively and correctly -- rather than implicitly and -- as the history on point shows -- ultimately, unknowingly, when the labels and actions become dissociated -- as they regularly have been.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-23-2013 at 10:23 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:55 AM   #39
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
There are a few videos of Sensei[Bill Gleason] on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/user/shobuaikidoofboston
Here is a recent one and a very nice one too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2knQQMFeZw
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:22 AM   #40
asiawide
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Re: easily accessible videos of Internal Training in Aikido?

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Here is a recent one and a very nice one too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2knQQMFeZw
My impression is that modern aikido is built on top of many work arounds. Don't know why but such know-hows help techniques work easier and better. Please see this. At the end of the video, the teacher says

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zyIQFivYA

1. just turning this.... (this helps.. but what about not turning at all?)
2. only use the weight of arm.... (what if add body weight?)
3. put it on top of him.... (only weight of arm? or ??)

It's not so hard to put nage's weight on top of uke through arms. You can instantly feel like uke is standing on the air regardless of how hard he grabs nage. Untrained uke can't resist it. But if the uke do some solo exercises, it's damn hard to do.
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