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Old 01-11-2013, 06:56 PM   #1
hughrbeyer
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Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
For anyone to say what Ueshiba actually meant requires a lot of assumption (presumption).
Or it requires going to look. Bald assertions don't get anyone very far.

Related note, this one is for Chris H. From Aikido and spirituality: Japanese religious influences
in a martial art
:

'Tomiki Kenji, for instance, attributed Ueshiba's skill to "muscular training which is part of modern physical eductation [sic]. It's called isometrics". [Pranin (ed.), Aikido Masters, 58]'

LOL. Yeah, it's just isometrics. Part of any decent physical training regimen.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:18 AM   #2
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Tomiki did know Ueshiba better than any of us...

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:09 AM   #3
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Or it requires going to look. Bald assertions don't get anyone very far.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Related note, this one is for Chris H. From Aikido and spirituality: Japanese religious influences
in a martial art
:

'Tomiki Kenji, for instance, attributed Ueshiba's skill to "muscular training which is part of modern physical eductation [sic]. It's called isometrics". [Pranin (ed.), Aikido Masters, 58]'

LOL. Yeah, it's just isometrics. Part of any decent physical training regimen.
Hugh's quote is from Margaret Greenhalgh's MA thesis. In the book version, it appears on p. 36. Since Chris H and others might like to have the context, here it is.

"This failure to put Ueshiba's performance and experience into the context of Japanese spiritual traditions, however, has led scholars such as Guttmann and Thompson to treat accounts of his martial arts performance with disbelief. Such skepticism is not confined to scholars; some martial artists, both during Ueshiba's lifetime and in the present, have also doubted his achievement. Tomiki Kenji, for instance, attributed Ueshiba's skill to "muscular training which is part of modern physical eductation [sic]. It's called isometrics". Others, however, consider that Ueshiba's ability to throw his attackers with "what appears to be an ineffectual wave of the hand or a light, guiding touch to the attacker's body" were "eloquent testimony to his extraordinary spiritual and martial development".

Greenhalgh cites Stanley Pranin's Aikido Masters. Her quote is part of a lengthy response that Tomiki gives to a lengthy question.

The Question
"There's one thing I have a hard time explaining away even though I am skeptical person by nature. I have in my possession several films of O Sensei. In one he takes a jo [stick] about three-and-a-half feet long and extends it out to his side. Several students push at a right-angle to the jo and they are unable to move it. That's one phenomenon. Let me give another example. The founder sits with his legs crossed, his hands relaxed, and three student attempt to force him over by pushing against his head. They can't. Is this faked or is there some physical principle which can explain these feats?"

Tomiki's Response
"This is a matter of muscular training which is part of modern physical eductation. It's called isometrics. That is to say, we can train inner or outer groups of muscles by pushing or pulling. A person who is highly skilled at this form of training hardly exhibits any muscle movement at all during the exercise. When you can't see any movement the person is using his muscles very skillfully. But you are making a big mistake in the educational field if you demand a similar level of expertise from everyone. If a person trains sufficiently it is possible to do such things to some degree, but, of course, there are limits to what a human can do. Absoluteness is a problem of religious belief. I think we can call it religious faith. But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word. I, for one, take the point of view that education appropriate for the general public is correct and I think aikido should be something normal as well."

The question and answer (with the spelling mistake corrected) appears in the revised version, Aikido Pioneers -- Prewar Era, on p. 44.

For AikiWeb students of Japanese, here is Tomiki's original response, with Romaji transcript. His Japanese is fairly straightforward. For ease of reference, I have repeated the translation, about which I have one or two reservations.

この問題は、現代体育学の、筋肉のトレーニングの事で、アイソメトリックスと言うんです。
Kono mondai wa, gendai taikugaku no, kinniku toreiningu no koto de, isometorikkusu to iun desu.
This is a matter of muscular training which is part of modern physical education. It's called isometrics.

それは、押したり引いたりすることによって、屈筋や心筋が働くわけですが、上手になると、筋肉が働くのが見えないんです。
Sore wa, oshitari hiitari suru koto ni yotte, kukkin ya shinkin ga hataraku wake desu ga, jouzu ni naru to, kinniku ga hataraku no wa mienain desu.
That is to say, we can train inner or outer groups of muscles by pushing or pulling. A person who is highly skilled at this form of training hardly exhibits any muscle movement at all during the exercise.

見えないところで筋肉をうまく使えるんです。しかし、それ(このような理論を隠しておいて、大道の安芸人のようなことをすることをさす)を教育の場にもってきたら、非常に おかしい事になってしまうんです。
Mienai tokoro de kinniku wo umaku tsukaerun desu. Shikashi, sore (kono youna riron wo kakushite oite, oomichi no akibito no youna koto wo suru koto wo sasu) wo kouiku no ba ni motte kitara, hijouni okashii koto ni natte shimaun desu.
When you can't see any movement the person is using his muscles very skillfully. But you are making a big mistake in the educational field if you demand a similar level of expertise from everyone.

 練習を積めばある程度できます。しかし、人間のやることには限界がありますよ。
Renshuu wo tsumeba aru teido dekimasu. Shikashi, ningen no yaru koto ni wa genkai ga arimasuyo.
If a person trains sufficiently it is possible to do such things to some degree, but, of course, there are limits to what a human can do.

絶対という事はこれは信念の問題でね。
Zettai to iu koto wa kore wa shinnen no mondai de ne.
Absoluteness is a problem of religious belief.

宗教的な信念とか、相手の精神状態を催眠術で狂わせるということになったら、普通の教育じゃないのです。
Shuukyoutekina shinnen to ka, aite no seishin joutai wo saiminjutsu de kuruwaseru to iu koto ni nattara, futsuu no kyouiku janai no desu.
I think we can call it religious faith. But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word.

私は一般の、百万人の教育の立場をとって、合気道を普及しなきゃならんとかんと考えているのです。
Watashi wa ippan no, hyakumannin no kyouiku no tachiba wo totte, aikidou wo fukyuu shinakya naran to kangaete iru no desu.
I, for one, take the point of view that education appropriate for the general public is correct and I think aikido should be something normal as well.

I have quoted the whole exchange because I think it gives a necessary context to Greenhalgh's explanation of Tomiki's so-called skepticism about Ueshiba's skills.

Apologies for the thread drift (since this post does not strictly concern the definition of 合気).

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:29 AM   #4
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Nice. Thanks, professor.

My interest in this is how it traces the loss of IP awareness down through the generations. Tomiki, who had a clue, looks at one of the standard IP party tricks and sees isometrics and skillful muscle use, not something appropriate for the general public. And presumably he saw the solo exercises as "isometrics" as well.

Sorta like Saito, asked about "opening the legs in six directions" and saying, "Oh, that means hanmi."

When the concept itself is lost, how can the word keep its meaning?

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:11 AM   #5
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Thanks Prof Goldsbury,

Quote:
For ease of reference, I have repeated the translation, about which I have one or two reservations.
And these are, if you don't mind?

Also, about Tomiki statement: But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word, and considering his aquintance with Omoto-kyo believers like Nishimura Shutaro, would you say he was talking about the results of the psychic research some cult members were into?

OTOH, I think Greenhalgh is exaggerating a bit regarding Guttmann and Thompson 'disbelief'.

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Old 01-12-2013, 11:26 AM   #6
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

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Nice. Thanks, professor.

My interest in this is how it traces the loss of IP awareness down through the generations. Tomiki, who had a clue, looks at one of the standard IP party tricks and sees isometrics and skillful muscle use, not something appropriate for the general public. And presumably he saw the solo exercises as "isometrics" as well.

Sorta like Saito, asked about "opening the legs in six directions" and saying, "Oh, that means hanmi."

When the concept itself is lost, how can the word keep its meaning?
The problem I have here, is it is looking for a specific answer. The assumption that there is an IP (unique internal power)- which is different then anything commonly understood. Then from that assumption you are looking to trace the loss of awareness for this IP.

It's no different then many IP people feel about those who look for answers to what was happening using modern athletics as an explanation.

Both view points are favoring assumption that what they feel is correct.

If we are going to find an answer (I'm not sure we ever will) we've got to try and look at the problem with a little less bias.

If we are looking for something, we'll find it. If we are looking for IP, we'll see that, if we are looking for normal athletics we'll find that. We need to look for the truth, instead of trying to prove our personal perspective correct.

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Old 01-12-2013, 04:48 PM   #7
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Actually, I agree with you on the subject of the basic issue. Finding what you expect to find isn't news.

OTOH, if one has a hypothesis that a certain skill set was lost, one can suggest possible logical consequences of that hypothesis--predictions suggested by the hypothesis. If those predictions are confirmed, then that adds credence to the hypothesis.

Possible predictions:
* We should be able to trace the progressive loss of the skills over time;
* We should be able to show how the skills were lost--why they were devalued;
* We should expect to find hints and reminders of the skills among most of the Founder's students;
* We should be able to tie the skill set back to prior arts and sideways to sister arts.

Confirming any of these predictions doesn't *prove* anything. It does lend support to the hypothesis, though.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:08 PM   #8
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post

OTOH, if one has a hypothesis that a certain skill set was lost, one can suggest possible logical consequences of that hypothesis--predictions suggested by the hypothesis. If those predictions are confirmed, then that adds credence to the hypothesis.

Possible predictions:
* We should be able to trace the progressive loss of the skills over time;
* We should be able to show how the skills were lost--why they were devalued;
* We should expect to find hints and reminders of the skills among most of the Founder's students;
* We should be able to tie the skill set back to prior arts and sideways to sister arts.

Confirming any of these predictions doesn't *prove* anything. It does lend support to the hypothesis, though.
I agree, but the problem is all of these are built on the assumption that there was something different to start with. I know I sound like a broken record, but here's where I'm going.

with your possible predictions.

First prediction. How do you know that our predecessors had skills we don't have? Before we can go about tracing how the skills have been lost, we need to first establish the existence of any different/special/unique skills.

Your second prediction makes the same assumption.

Your third prediction would be a good place to start, but before we can do that, we need an agreed upon model of these skills to find hints and reminders of them.

Your fourth prediction has the same problem.

So while I agree, that working from a hypothesis is a great way to go, we have to first establish the point we are going to build the hypothesis on.

So if we are going to look to IP to build our hypothesis about it's existence in the past, we first have to understand what IP is right now. Without this foundation we can't hope to use past information to confirm our suspicions.

We are in a better place if we start with athletics and work from the assumption that what Tomiki said was correct or incorrect. We know what athletics are, we know what isometrics are. So if we start anywhere I would guess the better part would be attempting to prove or disprove that Ueshiba was using isometrics to achieve the things he was suppose to be doing.

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:12 PM   #9
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Thanks Prof Goldsbury,

And these are, if you don't mind?

Also, about Tomiki statement: But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word, and considering his aquintance with Omoto-kyo believers like Nishimura Shutaro, would you say he was talking about the results of the psychic research some cult members were into?

OTOH, I think Greenhalgh is exaggerating a bit regarding Guttmann and Thompson 'disbelief'.
Hello Demetrio,

The reservations concern two places:

1. 見えないところで筋肉をうまく使えるんです。しかし、それ(このような理論を隠しておいて、大道の安芸人のようなことをすることをさす)を教育の場にもってきたら、非常に おかしい事になってしまうんです。
Mienai tokoro de kinniku wo umaku tsukaerun desu. Shikashi, sore (kono youna riron wo kakushite oite, oomichi no akibito no youna koto wo suru koto wo sasu) wo kouiku no ba ni motte kitara, hijouni okashii koto ni natte shimaun desu.
When you can't see any movement the person is using his muscles very skillfully. But you are making a big mistake in the educational field if you demand a similar level of expertise from everyone.

Last night at the dojo I enquired of my Japanese colleagues about the reading and meaning of 大道の安芸人 / oomichi no akibito and no one knew. The issue was whether it meant the same as 大道芸人 daidou geinin, which means 'street performer': someone who does skillful things like conjuring tricks in the street.

2. 宗教的な信念とか、相手の精神状態を催眠術で狂わせるということになったら、普通の教育じゃないのです。
Shuukyoutekina shinnen to ka, aite no seishin joutai wo saiminjutsu de kuruwaseru to iu koto ni nattara, futsuu no kyouiku janai no desu.
I think we can call it religious faith. But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word.

I think the final sentence should be, 'it is not a matter of education as I usually think of the word'. I think this changes the emphasis of the paragraph somewhat.

Best wishes,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-12-2013 at 05:15 PM.

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:43 PM   #10
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Thanks again.

It seems to me Tomiki saw the IP demos as something in the line of Lulu Hurst or Annie Abbott performances.

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:08 PM   #11
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Wow, Thanks for the translations Professor! They really shed some new, and very interesting light.

Could you explain the comparison of 大道の安芸人 and 大道芸人 a little more? Are the implications of 大道芸人 that these are the kinds of skills shown by practiced performers (acrobats, magicians, jugglers, etc.). And he is likening these demonstrations to parlor tricks? Not so much saying that it is "athleticism" per se, but more like a physical talent trained for a specific demonstration?

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:18 PM   #12
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Thanks again.

It seems to me Tomiki saw the IP demos as something in the line of Lulu Hurst or Annie Abbott performances.
I dont' know if you've read Lulu Hurst's auto biography or not. But it provides many interesting stories. One thing that I found remarkable about her story, is that she didn't even know how she did many of the things she did. It wasn't until much later in life (long after she stopped performing), and much thought about her stunts that she figured out what was really going on. I thought this was very interesting because it showed that even the performer themselves might not know how they are doing what they are doing.

Also, in the auto biography, she explains all of her stunts, the "Jo trick", from what I can tell exactly the way Ueshiba is demonstrating it, is explained by her. And it's a very good explanation- although different then the one I originally stumbled upon.

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:24 PM   #13
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

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I dont' know if you've read Lulu Hurst's auto biography or not.
I have it somewhere, but I have not read it yet. I'll move it upwards in the queue.

Also, Sokaku was, for some time, a member of a circus troupe. Maybe he obtained some of his skills there.

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:30 PM   #14
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

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Also, Sokaku was, for some time, a member of a circus troupe. Maybe he obtained some of his skills there.
HA!

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #15
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Think in some kind of Derren Brown with fighting skills... a serious opponent. He can manipulate you both psychologically and physically. Put him in the Omoto-kyo environment back in the day, full of "spiritualists", "psychics" and "believers in the supernatural" and you'll have a legend.

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Old 01-12-2013, 06:47 PM   #16
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

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Hello Demetrio,

The reservations concern two places:

1. 見えないと"ろで筋肉'うまく使える"です。しかし、そ ("のような理--'隠しておいて、大"の安芸人のような"と'する"と'さす)'教育の場にもってきた 、非常に おかしい事になってしまう"です。
Mienai tokoro de kinniku wo umaku tsukaerun desu. Shikashi, sore (kono youna riron wo kakushite oite, oomichi no akibito no youna koto wo suru koto wo sasu) wo kouiku no ba ni motte kitara, hijouni okashii koto ni natte shimaun desu.
When you can't see any movement the person is using his muscles very skillfully. But you are making a big mistake in the educational field if you demand a similar level of expertise from everyone.

Last night at the dojo I enquired of my Japanese colleagues about the reading and meaning of 大"の安芸人 / oomichi no akibito and no one knew. The issue was whether it meant the same as 大"芸人 daidou geinin, which means 'street performer': someone who does skillful things like conjuring tricks in the street.

2. 宗教的な信念とか、相手の精神状態'催眠"で狂わせると う"とになったら、普通の教育じゃないのです。
Shuukyoutekina shinnen to ka, aite no seishin joutai wo saiminjutsu de kuruwaseru to iu koto ni nattara, futsuu no kyouiku janai no desu.
I think we can call it religious faith. But if we have to disrupt our partner's psychological state through some hypnotic technique, it is not a matter of religion as I usually think of the word.

I think the final sentence should be, 'it is not a matter of education as I usually think of the word'. I think this changes the emphasis of the paragraph somewhat.

Best wishes,
I think that you might be right on the second one, and it certainly changes the meaning.

For the first one, my hunch is that he's talking about a street performer - but a low-level one. A "cheap trickster" maybe.

I know that Tomiki studied things like Omoto-kyo in order to understand Ueshiba, but my impression from works like "Budo-ron" is that he tended to be more of a rationalist, a modern educator, like Kano.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:01 PM   #17
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

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I think that you might be right on the second one, and it certainly changes the meaning.

For the first one, my hunch is that he's talking about a street performer - but a low-level one. A "cheap trickster" maybe.

I know that Tomiki studied things like Omoto-kyo in order to understand Ueshiba, but my impression from works like "Budo-ron" is that he tended to be more of a rationalist, a modern educator, like Kano.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris
Hello Chris (Li),

Thank you. This is my own view also. One of the problems here is that with 大道の安芸人, Tomiki might well have been using a phrase not now in common use. None of the 安芸人 in the dojo understood the phrase.

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-12-2013 at 07:03 PM.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:30 PM   #18
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

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None of the 安芸人 in the dojo understood the phrase.


Best,

Chris

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:16 PM   #19
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Wow, Thanks for the translations Professor! They really shed some new, and very interesting light.

Could you explain the comparison of 大道の安芸人 and 大道芸人 a little more? Are the implications of 大道芸人 that these are the kinds of skills shown by practiced performers (acrobats, magicians, jugglers, etc.). And he is likening these demonstrations to parlor tricks? Not so much saying that it is "athleticism" per se, but more like a physical talent trained for a specific demonstration?
Hello Chris (H),

Apologies in advance for what will be a lengthy post.

I shouldn't worry too much about the comparison of 大道の安芸人 and 大道芸人. I had a hunch that they mean much the same thing and Chris Li's posts strengthened this hunch. To see why, bear with me.

Hugh Beyer's quotation from Margaret Greenhalgh's thesis raised a few red flags. Greenhalgh was suggesting that Tomiki was skeptical about Ueshiba's skills. Here was one of Ueshiba's earliest students, senior to both Iwata and Shirata, trusted enough by Ueshiba to be sent to Manchuria to teach aiki-budo, and known for his very careful analyses of budo training, expressing skepticism about Ueshiba's art. Greenhalgh does not include anything by Tomiki in her bibliography, so I assume that she has not read anything he has written. Anyway, I went back to the interview she cites, and looked at it again in English and Japanese.

First of all, it is Stan Pranin who suggests skepticism, not Tomiki. He asks if the jo trick and the head-pushing trick are fake or can be explained in terms of some physical principle.

In his answer, Tomiki uses a device long favored by academics and politicians: he sidesteps the question. One could paraphrase the answer in the following way: ‘This mondai (issue, namely, whether there is a physical explanation for Ueshiba's skills) is a matter of what is called isometrics, which is muscle training in modern physical education. You can train group of muscles by pushing and pulling, and people who become good at this exhibit very little muscle movement.'

However, Tomiki then goes back to his main theme of physical education.

‘When you cannot see the movement, the person is using the muscles very skillfully, but if you bring this (false idea, namely, hiding the real cause and seeing the concealed movement like the cheap tricks of a street performer) into the field of education, this is a very strange situation.'

The Japanese text then has a new paragraph, in which Tomiki again discusses education (with the error in the translation corrected).

‘The acquisition of skills depends on putting in the hours of training, but the level of skill is open-ended and subject to human limits. If we think in absolutes, this is perhaps a matter of religious faith. However, if we disrupt someone's psychological state by a technique like hypnosis, this is not regarded as normal (physical) education. My viewpoint is that (physical) education is something for everybody and I also believe that aikido should be spread (i.e., regarded as something for everybody in the same way, and not regarded as the cheap tricks of a street performer).'

So I do not think that Tomiki was skeptical, so much as one seeking sound explanations. As Chris Li suggests in his post, he was the arch rationalist in the Kobukan Dojo and the brains behind the explanations in Budo Renshu and Budo. He demanded good ( = non-magical) explanations of what Ueshiba was doing.

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-12-2013 at 09:19 PM.

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:34 PM   #20
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Yes, Tomiki always struck me as a rationalist trying to bring "modern" approaches to such things as, for example, teaching a martial art. As such, he might have been prone to jamming old-style skills into the shiny new structure of "rational" education. So while flushing the mysticism and mumbo-jumbo from his system, he might have allowed a baby or two to slip down the drain as well.

Chris H, I'm not going to engage your arguments directly because they bore me. If you don't like the traditional framing of hypothesis proposition and disconfirmation, think of what we're doing as trying out different interpretive frames. Multiple interpretive frames may explain the same data and experiences--up to a point. You may eventually find that there are too many phenomena that your frame can't accommodate. At that point, a paradigm shift is in order. Until then, good luck with your search.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:17 AM   #21
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Thank you Professor.

Does it seem to anyone else like the issue of "fake" keeps getting in the way? Is there a different between a "cheap trick" a "good trick" and a "technique" other then the idea you hold about the person using the method in question?

I think we get into an issue of morality and ethics often, and this gets in our way of understanding what is going on. Is this what Tomiki is doing with the device you mention? That is to say, Tomiki was making a comment, that if we look at what Ueshiba is doing as something worthy of learning, it's educational. But if you try and take that same thing, and look at it as a "cheap trick" (大道の安芸人) it seems strange.

Then Tomiki goes on to say, that (I'm heavily paraphrasing to show my understanding of what I believe is going on) he believes that what Ueshiba is teaching is very worthy, and he believes it should be spread because it (whatever it is, be that isometrics or something else) is of value. So we shouldn't try to frame it as a "trick" or something of religious faith.

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Old 01-13-2013, 12:22 AM   #22
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
You may eventually find that there are too many phenomena that your frame can't accommodate. At that point, a paradigm shift is in order.
I'm not looking for a response here, and I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'd just like to clarify my position.

I haven't seen anything that would begin to make me have a paradigm shift. The only thing about the IP argument that I find compelling is that many people are interested in it, and those people are interested in the same martial art that I am interested in.

My real "search" is not for another kind of power, but instead to understand why people would believe that there is another kind of power.

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Old 01-13-2013, 12:25 AM   #23
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Think in some kind of Derren Brown with fighting skills... a serious opponent. He can manipulate you both psychologically and physically. Put him in the Omoto-kyo environment back in the day, full of "spiritualists", "psychics" and "believers in the supernatural" and you'll have a legend.
My feelings are much the same as this statement.

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Old 01-13-2013, 08:10 AM   #24
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

The interview with tomili can also be found online in AJ website:

Part 1: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=144
Part 2: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=146

In Part 2 is where he adresses Pranin's questions regarding IP demos, also:
Q: Permit me to change the subject at this point. In modern psychology, science is attempting to discover if phenomena like telepathy and the sixth sense exist. Someone who practices martial arts for a long period of time realizes that he's not only working on the physical level but that sometimes by adopting a certain mental attitude he can influence the attacker; that there is some element present which is very difficult to describe, but it is not technique. What are your feelings on the psychic areas? Is it possible to influence the power of your partner's attack?
A: I have my doubts on that point. I deny it though there are people who say things like that happen. However, I don't deny things like hypnosis or telepathy exist under certain spiritual conditions. In the case of budo there may be such things but they are the "outer limits," the result of very extreme psychological (spiritual) conditions, situations where it is a question of will I live or will I die, and these are conditions that we simply don't meet today. They just don't exist, and it's good that they don't. It's no good to fight.

I always take the educator's point of view. The bujutsu of old were overwhelmingly dangerous. They were cruel and bloody. In sports, whether it is track and field or swimming or whatever, we have the world of real strength. The same strength but with the addition of cruel things made to cause injury (literally, "to make blood flow"). Thus, to make this something that is applicable to our own times we must remove these elements and make the arts into an armour that we wear for self-defense. In the case of judo we have to skip certain techniques, and then systemize movement. The problem is in that way of thinking.

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Old 03-01-2013, 04:37 AM   #25
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Re: Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

If hypothetically Tomiki believed that Ueshiba had unique internal power of some kind, would it be one of the things that he would think should be excluded from the average martial artist's knowledge in the new society?
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