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Old 01-10-2013, 06:43 PM   #51
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think one of the big problems we have is assumption, and the certainty that the assumptions are correct. This, I believe has led us more astray than any other device we've used...
The only evident problem we have is that some have done a prodigious amount of actual research AND physical training that bring the scholarly and the technical together, to offer credible theory... while others use conjecture that is entirely unreenforced by scholarship and technical know-how.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-10-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:41 PM   #52
DH
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

I'm not interested in technical know how or a discussion of it per se, I am interested in taking each definition at face value and knowing what it means.

1. Aiki as evading... isn't debated.
2. Aiki as a spiritual reference isn't debated either.....even though many don't know his references and what they meant to him, they don't debate it they discuss it and all agree its over their head. Often they take poor explanations at face value because..well they admit they don't know the reference points.
3 Aiki that are exact quotes and known trading modalities for internal power? They get thrown out as hogwash or included as part of some esoteric meandering because most people don't know. Thus we have a dilemma.
People don't know much about these other aiki expressions and training models, what they meant, where they came from or that there are *real* *live* humans walking the earth who DO know these things....


For that reason I would agree with assumptions Just not the way it is being offered.

Openly choosing to disregard definitions of aiki that Ueshiba considered vital to his daily exercises and studies and quoted repeatedly has been done before. It's a twice told tale.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-10-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:28 PM   #53
akiy
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Hi folks,

Rather than making this thread into condemnation for people who do not include certain interpretations of how Morihei Ueshiba used the term "aiki" or how some are using certain interpretations within their physical/technical practice, please turn the discussion towards discussing the interpretations themselves.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:33 PM   #54
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
That one went to the sea voyage pile.

With respect to the term Aiki - I doubt that even in historical times, in cultural context, it had any clear meaning. Much as I like and can relate to some of those historical definitions the terms use was more broad - almost like a catch-all. Ueshiba if anything was even less precise.

For anyone to say what Ueshiba actually meant requires a lot of assumption (presumption).
The more I read and learn the more I am forced to agree with this. As much as I would like to put "Ueshiba's idea of Aiki" in a little box, it's nearly impossible.

I think simply sticking to the word Aikido, when referencing our system is best.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:45 AM   #55
Michael Varin
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Ai: match, fit, suit, join, combine, unite, coincide, agree.

Ki: air, atmosphere, spirit, mind, heart, will, intention, feelings, a mood, nature, a disposition, attention, care, a sign, an indication.

These are basic, no frills definitions. I find that it is best to start from the most obvious and mundane. These will not provide the final answer, and can likely be argued in any direction. But, whatever phenomena people, Morihei included, had in mind, I doubt seriously that the characters ai and ki were randomly selected.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Drawing a circle and explaining Aiki is opposing powers.
Or
The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals.
I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:20 AM   #56
mrlizard123
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Ai: match, fit, suit, join, combine, unite, coincide, agree.

Ki: air, atmosphere, spirit, mind, heart, will, intention, feelings, a mood, nature, a disposition, attention, care, a sign, an indication.

These are basic, no frills definitions. I find that it is best to start from the most obvious and mundane. These will not provide the final answer, and can likely be argued in any direction. But, whatever phenomena people, Morihei included, had in mind, I doubt seriously that the characters ai and ki were randomly selected.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Drawing a circle and explaining Aiki is opposing powers.
Or
The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals.
I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.
Chris Li would probably be able to answer this, from his blogs I can see this which looks like it could be a paraphrase of:

Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
There's even a section in "Aiki Shinzui" (a collection of essays by Morihei Ueshiba) called 合気は息の妙用なり ("Aiki is the mysterious working of Iki (breath).").

[snip]

In "Takemusu Aiki" the word "Kokyu" is actually annotated in many places to be pronounced, phonetically, "iki".

So where does "iki" come from? Here's a quick hint:

合気道の呼吸法によるイキ(息)は、右に螺旋して舞い昇り、左に螺旋して舞い下り、水火のムスビ(産霊・結び)が生ずる。

The "Iki" (breath) of Aikido's kokyu-ho winds up in a spiral on the right, winds down in a spiral on the left, and gives rise to the connection between Water ("I") and Fire ("ki").
Source: Aikido Sangenkai Blog

Worth giving Chris' blogs a read through if you've not had opportunity as yet.

Disclaimer; there are undoubtedly many other passages and writings which may be closer to the above quote but this is an example of Ueshiba using this language, I am not qualified to make the translations myself but see no reason to question Chris'. I'm sure there are others here who can translate the above for themselves and debate the detail/interpretation.

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:15 AM   #57
Chris Li
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.
That particular quote appears here.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-11-2013, 10:31 AM   #58
DH
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

As Chris continues to translate, it becomes abundantly clear that Ueshiba was (as I have continued to state) not even using his own ideas for aiki.
THEY WERE NOT HIS DISCOVERY
Many things he says were actual quotes of known work

1. If we keep asking what Ueshiba meant by aiki and not what westerners think about aiki than I would suggest reading what our subject-Ueshiba Morihei actually said on the subject (correctly translated)
Then as Chris and others are doing
2. Find out what his sources were.
  • were they his discoveries?
  • Did that have a pedagogy?
  • What did they mean when used in context from many sources?
  • what did they mean to him?

Once you establish that, you simply cannot, with any degree of credibility ignore ALL of his references which tie in as well to accepted and credible doctrine of internal training. They are simply inescapable reference points. His thoughts on evading, explicated in detail by Shirata outline the starting point as internal training in order to create and immovable body IN MOTION. Then he discusses how that tied together creates invinicible positioning. These descriptions of aiki
Aiki is the joining of two ki's as opposing forces expressed in heaven earth man
Aiki is dual opposing spirals (repetative quote left out)

Give life and breath to his thoughts on
Aiki is evading

We are discussing Ueshiba's aiki are we not?
I for one am interested in what gave him such crazy power. Since I am interested in his power and where he thought it tied into his world view, I take his quotes on aiki in their fullness and try to understand what they mean.

People keep stating we need to understand cultural reference for his spirtual descriptions. Okay
Discuss them________________________
We need to understand the cultural references for his Aiki as internal power dynamics
Discuss them________________________
Chris is.
Dan
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:36 AM   #59
jonreading
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

A couple of things have come up that I think I can address...

Quote:
Who is convincing you that a cultural filter is needed all the time, and who is capable of providing it?
The opposite, actually. Many of the interpreted translations I have read I now feel flavored the original meanings. When I read Chris' translations, I am like, "wow, that makes way more sense." However, I am not literate in Japanese, nor am I familiar with the Eastern culture. I understand these things influence language and I still need assistance within those contexts. We have so many more bi-lingual capable martial artists who can revise what we know...

Quote:
For anyone to say what Ueshiba actually meant requires a lot of assumption (presumption).
I think it requires the presumption of elite persons capable of deciphering what was going on to undertake the challenge of figuring out what was going on. I think we need to start somewhere and if educated guesses are the beginning, then let's get going. There are guys out there whose guesses I would rather accept than most of the facts in aikido books.

I think several people have commented, but aiki is a fairly straight-forward definition in many other martial arts. For some reason, "aikido" is the art that has the biggest problem with aiki. That should be because the study is expansive, but I am not so sure that is the actual reason.

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Old 01-11-2013, 12:05 PM   #60
phitruong
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Chris Li would probably be able to answer this, from his blogs I can see this which looks like it could be a paraphrase of:

Source: Aikido Sangenkai Blog

Worth giving Chris' blogs a read through if you've not had opportunity as yet.
every time i read that blog, i started to see more stuffs. either i need new reading glasses or since the legalization of certain weed in a certain state, it might affect my seeing things, from a distance, through the internet (doesn't weed affects ki from a distance?). i still blamed Chris Li for it, out of spite, and because i can and he couldn't do anything to me, since he's way over the other side of the country.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:13 AM   #61
Michael Varin
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That particular quote appears here.

Best,

Chris
Thanks.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:05 PM   #62
akiy
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

I have moved the posts regarding 'Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"' to this new thread:

Tomiki Kenji's Attribution of Ueshiba's Skill to "Muscular Training"

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:10 PM   #63
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

To me, aiki is not love or peace wiffle waffle. If that is what you think it to be, then you will never learn it in terms of being able to manipulate people using their own effort. To me, aiki is a method and a skill and if you develop it your waza go from being waza that you do yourself into waza that uke almost casues upon himself. You need skill, timing, harmony, coordination etc etc etc and of course, you need to develop your power, but the right kind of power, and that would be ... kokyu ryoku. After you can do that, then, you can waffle on about peace.

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Old 02-09-2013, 11:14 AM   #64
Dan Richards
 
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
... you will never learn it in terms of being able to manipulate people using their own effort.
Aiki has nothing to do with "manipulating" people. Aiki is on a completely different level.
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:12 PM   #65
mrlizard123
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Aiki has nothing to do with "manipulating" people. Aiki is on a completely different level.
Depends on your definition of "manipulate" but if you use:

"Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner"

It seems to fit to me.

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