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Old 01-10-2013, 11:02 AM   #276
SeiserL
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Anyway, congrats on getting Dan on schedule for Atlanta next month. Sorry I couldn't give more support on that and that I won't be able to attend. I hope this takes hold among the serious IP guys in ATL and that some of our local folks can attend in February.
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:14 AM   #277
chillzATL
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22158

I'd say either reply to the thread if you're interested or email him at the address listed.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:19 AM   #278
DH
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
And where can we get information about the February Atlanta seminar please?
Lynn
I have you on the list to reply to this morning.
My reply was going to be to see the thread you have already been pointed to.
Dan
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:24 AM   #279
Marc Abrams
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Regarding fees:
Start a thread stating the fees of Saotome or Ushiro, and cut and paste the same negative comments that have been posted here.

There is an obvious undercurrent of anger here. I have taken more personal slams directed at my character, motives and honesty than any combination of individuals.
The fact that 99% of the seminar attendees write in with positive comments and the fact that no one....not one person from Aikido has been physically able to handle me matters not.

Jun has hopefully gotten...all...of us on board to knock this stuff off. We'll see how it goes.

_________________________________________________________

I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
I wanted to discuss that.
As I predicted....no one wants to address that! So, instead they attack -me- in anyway they can.

Look at the original post, look at the replies, all over the map to avoid the OP.....

I keep trying to help and I am succeeding so I'll keep my eye on the ball and satisfy myself with the incredible letters I keep receiving from teachers with decades of experience, thanking me for opening their eyes....with material that isn't even mine.....
It came from the founder of their own art, Aikido!!!

Dan
For the record:

When I host Ushiro Sensei, I pay for his economy class airfare ONLY (roundtrip Japan-New York). He charges me NO seminar fee. I provide him with a payment of the proceeds, because of my belief that this is proper behavior on my part. I have Ushiro Sensei and several people from Japan stay at my house. I have formal meals for all of the students who travel to Japan for the seminar. My wife and I prepare gourmet meals and fine drinks for ANY teacher who teaches at my dojo. Simply ask George Ledyard Sensei about how I host teachers.

If anybody would like to suggest that Ushiro Sensei is charging exorbitant fees and is living high and mighty when he travels for seminars, then they simply do not know what they are talking about, or have been told lies. I hope to never see another post where somebody is alleging that Ushiro Sensei is somehow charging exorbitant fees for his seminars in the US.

As to Dan Harden and his seminars, it is my personal belief that Dan's seminars provide the biggest bang for the buck PERIOD. I believe that you pay less than most seminars and walk away with tons of useful information. I have a personal relationship with both Dan Harden and Ushiro Sensei. If people want to put out misinformation about either man, they can expect a corrective post from me.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #280
DH
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Re: Vantage points

Thanks Marc
I wasn't suggesting Ushiro was, or that Saotome was. Nor anyone else for that matter, just asking why no one else is mentioned. Pick any well know teacher and plug their name in....and isn't that the point?
What the HELL are we doing discussing fees at all?
It just keeps coming up when MY name is involved.
Where are the all threads pointed elsewhere?

Hopefully, the airing of grievances that went on in this thread can put and end to all of that and we can turn the page.

Example:
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
How is it that most acknowledge they now can understand what Ueshiba was talking about
Why do people think that happened?
How could it have happened?
What does it mean, what should it mean for the discussion of Internal power and aiki?

________________________________crickets.... wind whistling through the trees.

Honest answers would move us all forward.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-10-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:58 AM   #281
Marc Abrams
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Thanks Marc
I wasn't suggesting Ushiro was, or that Saotome was. Nor anyone else for that matter, just asking why no one else is mentioned. Pick any well know teacher and plug their name in....and isn't that the point?
What the HELL are we doing discussing fees at all?
It just keeps coming up when MY name is involved.
Where are the all threads pointed elsewhere?

Hopefully, the airing of grievances that went on in this thread can put and end to all of that and we can turn the page.

Example:
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.
How is it that most acknowledge they now can understand what Ueshiba was talking about
Why do people think that happened?
How could it have happened?
What does it mean, what should it mean for the discussion of Internal power and aiki?

________________________________crickets.... wind whistling through the trees.

Honest answers would move us all forward.
Dan
Dan:

I know that you were not insinuating anything about Ushiro Sensei. Like you, Ushiro Sensei tends to invoke strong opinions. I, like you, want to squash the irrelevant attacks on people, due to an absolute inability to "attack" the message. Now back to our regular programing.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:29 PM   #282
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I started the thread in an attempt to discuss why no one from here will acknowledge that almost all of those who come to these seminars switch and start training this way. Those are almost impossible odds. As outrageously successful as an outcome as you could hope for. It is far beyond anything -I- ever imagined would happen.

I wanted to discuss that. In and of itself it offers compelling credibility to the discussion that we have been having on the boards.
At the very least, if we address that topic alone, we can move forward with the fact that there must be something to this to convince so many credible teachers.
I think people do acknowledge it...it's what got my attention, and I assume a good number of others too. When I first began to read what people were saying about "internals" and its relationship to Aikido, I took it as another "what if" to be considered. After tracking the conversations more, I noticed exactly what you described: almost everyone not only enjoyed the effects of the training (perceived an instant applicability), but also the process itself. The negative results I saw posted had more to do with rhetoric style than anything else.
I think part of the difficulty is that there have only been a handful of experts (relatively speaking, at least) even willing to talk about it; supplemental understanding has always been provided by students of those experts. For a long time I only ever saw three names brought up: yours, Mike's, and Akuzawa's. So we (I, at least) only saw a fairly small group of people represented. Now that we have a few more names to consider I think it helps. As time moves on and Aikiweb folks include other groups who are willing to talk about the bits that lend themselves to conversation, I think it will get even better and the cynicism will diminish.
Of course, as has been mentioned plenty of times before, a lot of this stuff is considered a trade secret...which doesn't exactly lend itself to open disussions with strangers, so we're relying on people who are more interested in brining things out into the light. Add to that the fact that you're forced to deal with ignorant and forgetful people like me who ask the same questions, etc., and I can see why many people are reluctant to participate. Human interactions are sloppy enough with like-minded folks, add the diversity of the internet and it can get interesting fast.
So the short answer for me (for the problem of accepting the evidence presented online), again, has to do with accessibility and relatability. The greater our efforts in these reagrds, the more people will open their mind to the "evidence" being presented here.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:30 PM   #283
Howard Popkin
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Re: Vantage points

Dan teaches about 12-14 hours per seminar @ $175

At 12 hours = 14.58 per hour
At 14 hours =12.50 per hour

If you don't think one of the best instructors in the world is worth 15 per hour than I'm not sure what you expect in this world. You pay your babysitter much more than that.

Seriously people, as someone who teaches seminars frequently I can tell you that NO ONE takes into account the day to get to the location and the day to get home.

If you factor in that time, there is no profit whatsoever, it is only the pleasure of sharing knowledge with good budo people.

If you aren't interested......DON'T GO.

Howard
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:16 PM   #284
Marc Abrams
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Dan teaches about 12-14 hours per seminar @ $175

At 12 hours = 14.58 per hour
At 14 hours =12.50 per hour

If you don't think one of the best instructors in the world is worth 15 per hour than I'm not sure what you expect in this world. You pay your babysitter much more than that.

Seriously people, as someone who teaches seminars frequently I can tell you that NO ONE takes into account the day to get to the location and the day to get home.

If you factor in that time, there is no profit whatsoever, it is only the pleasure of sharing knowledge with good budo people.

If you aren't interested......DON'T GO.

Howard
Howie:

The issue of how much someone makes for teaching a seminar had absolutely nothing to do with the initial thread. It arose, like other distractions, when people could not adequately address the thread/issues and simply resorted to attacking the poster in an irrelevant manner. I think that if we can not play into these "side issues" and keep people focused on addressing the issues raised in the thread, then maybe we can engage in serious discussions that can only help all of us improve as marital artists.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:11 PM   #285
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
For the record..............

My wife and I prepare gourmet meals and fine drinks for ANY teacher who teaches at my dojo. Simply ask George Ledyard Sensei about how I host teachers..........

Marc Abrams
Marc
I ain't much....but for a gourmet meal and fine drinks I might wonder into your area and teach a class or two.......no charge.......

Not that it is anyones business....Dan stays at our house when he is here.....my wife only demands one thing from the weekend....that we have one private meal with Dan so she gets a chance to talk to him. That says it all for me........

Gary
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:17 PM   #286
Eric Winters
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Re: Vantage points

I have not trained with Dan yet but I am going to his seminar at Aikido of Diablo Valley this weekend. I do not understand what the big deal about charging for a seminar is. He charges about what everybody else does for more hours of training. Has anybody here priced a seminar for real estate or something like it? I think it is several hundred maybe even thousands of dollars and it it not nearly as fun as the stuff I will be doing this weekend. Maybe people should just drop it and talk about something more useful and interesting. (like martial arts).

Eric
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:29 PM   #287
osaya
 
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Re: Vantage points

Hi all, I've been stalking this thread (and other IP/IS threads) for a while and I think I have a grasp on why there is so much conflict abound, and I hope to contribute something to help these threads proceed more smoothly.

Just for reference, a quick background of mine is that I train in aikido and systema, and since being exposed to the idea of IP/IS, I have been hungry to get more info about it for awhile. I still have not met Dan or Mike or Ark, but would really love to. The only IP/IS IHTBF experience I've had before is during a short visit to Jimmy Heow (Sam Chin's cousin who teaches ILC in Malaysia). Needless to say, I was very intrigued, but that obviously did not necessarily help me understand what Dan teaches/does except it provided some sort of vague reference to anchor on to.

Now, back to the online skirmishes--I think I understand where all camps are coming from. For the sake of simplicity, let's call them: 1) "the skeptics", 2) "the pro-IP/IS group", and 3) "the mediators".

When I first read about IP/IS on the forum a few years ago, my 'bullshit alert' came up, and whilst finding it interesting, I had lots of doubts. I remember seeing Dan post quite a lot even back then, and whilst he sounded like he knew 'stuff', his posts sounded very arrogant and dismissive of others. He also made so many incredible claims about his ability and followers that I automatically put him the "probably loud bark, small bite" basket. The way the stuff was presented on the forums come across as some cult-like or multi-level marketing type approach. Coming from a scientific background, I understand the need for evidence and moderating one's claims--things that were apparently sorely lacking from the "pro-IS/IP" camp. To help those who are not naturally skeptical to understand how this group thinks or perceives information, perhaps think of this example:-

Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...

Sounds dodgy? Yup, you bet it does. This is where the skeptics gets stuck. They don't believe it, but the only to prove it wrong is to invest the time and money to test it. (Yes, for you science nerds out there, it's the typical testing the null hypothesis concept.) But in order to invest the time/money to do it, they will need a level of credibility to surpass the minimum threshold to bother testing it. And that's why the skeptics keep badgering the pro-IS/IP camp for "proof".

The pro-IS/IP camp on the other hand HAVE tested it. And they KNOW it works. It's no longer an OPINION or IDEA that it MAY or MAY not work. For someone who has felt it or seen it, they need the proof no longer. It's a huge revelation. It's earth-shattering stuff. Imagine a world where all humans lived underground all their lives and no one has ever seen the sun. One day Bob takes a few people with him up to the surface and see the sun! It's amazing! They tell everyone what they saw, but every one thinks that they are crazy or stupid or both. They try so hard to convince everyone to come and see what they saw, but most find their claims so ridiculous and keep asking for proof, when to them, the only proof possible is to climb up to the surface! It's so extremely frustrating to deal with these ignorant fools isn't it?!

The mediator camp (e.g. Jun) on the other hand just wants these two camps to take a chill pill. They understand that different people perceive and appreciate different things, and wants them to talk about it civilly. It's kinda like watching kids in the playground all claiming that their dads are the best/strongest/smartest, and that everyone else's dad is an idiot. It's like reading forums about which Aikido style is the real/legitimate/kick-ass one--Aikikai? Iwama? Tomiki? Yoshinkan? etc etc.

So to me, I can see where everyone is coming from. I can see the huge misunderstanding that each camp has with the other when they ask questions from their own point of view. It's actually quite frustrating to see how productive discussions gets side-track due to these misunderstandings.

For me, I don't know Dan personally, but I'd REALLLY love to meet/train with him some day. Like I said, I was/am a skeptic--but I've had the luck of knowing at least two very, very senior Aikidoka who have trained with him, who have verified his claims. So for me, it's kinda like I know a few people who have climbed up to the surface with Bob, and they told me they've seen the sun. Is it the 'Truth'? As a skeptic, I can't say for sure--but I can say that for me, my personal minimum threshold of credibility has been met, and I'm willing to find out more directly now rather than wasting my energy demanding for more proof that cannot be found online.

sorry for the rambling. i'll got back to lurking now
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:57 AM   #288
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Vantage points

Interesting analogies.

However, I don't completely agree with the parts I've bolded in:

Quote:
Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...

Sounds dodgy? Yup, you bet it does. This is where the skeptics gets stuck. They don't believe it, but the only to prove it wrong is to invest the time and money to test it
IMO, the minimum threshold of credibility can be surpassed via information provided at distance

The problem lies in if the kind of proof skeptics (like myself) could ask for is going to be provided by the Mayan rejuvenation potion proponents or if they are not going to move from the IHTBF position.

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Old 01-11-2013, 07:30 AM   #289
Marc Abrams
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Marc
I ain't much....but for a gourmet meal and fine drinks I might wonder into your area and teach a class or two.......no charge.......

Not that it is anyones business....Dan stays at our house when he is here.....my wife only demands one thing from the weekend....that we have one private meal with Dan so she gets a chance to talk to him. That says it all for me........

Gary
Gary:

My door is always open for you ! Fine food, Fine Drink, Fine Company, Fine Budo..... Now that is LIFE!

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:39 AM   #290
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Seng-Yew Ong wrote: View Post
Imagine that Bob claims to have discovered the great long-lost youth rejuvenation potion of the Mayan civilization. Bob tells you that 100% of all people that have tried the potion say that it works! Tom and Jane have tried it, and they say it works too! Bob isn't going to tell you what the ingredients are because it's an ancient secret. Everyone who's tried it will attest to you that its real, but we obviously can't prove it to you over the internet. If you want to know more, you can come and pay X amount of dollars to see what the big deal is...
Just to refine your example, it may be the case (regardless of its effectiveness) that the potion is not of Mayan origin. The question of the potion's provenance is completely unrelated to its efficiency. For example, Jane may say that she feels younger but the fact that the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa, make her wonder where the recipe actually came from.

One may argue that if the potion works (you just have to feel it!), the provenance makes no difference. That is really a matter of personal opinion, so going back to martial arts, I choose to practice Aikido and if it was to be statistically demonstrated that in most engagements a Karateka beats an Akidoka, I think I would still opt for Aikido.

Regarding the 100%, I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things, it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion". This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.

About the money, as I said before, anyone is entitled to charge whatever they feel like for their time and knowledge.

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Old 01-11-2013, 09:41 AM   #291
Lee Salzman
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Just to refine your example, it may be the case (regardless of its effectiveness) that the potion is not of Mayan origin. The question of the potion's provenance is completely unrelated to its efficiency. For example, Jane may say that she feels younger but the fact that the potion doesn't have the typical Mayan taste of maize but rather tastes like Mexican salsa, make her wonder where the recipe actually came from.

One may argue that if the potion works (you just have to feel it!), the provenance makes no difference. That is really a matter of personal opinion, so going back to martial arts, I choose to practice Aikido and if it was to be statistically demonstrated that in most engagements a Karateka beats an Akidoka, I think I would still opt for Aikido.

Regarding the 100%, I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things, it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion". This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.

About the money, as I said before, anyone is entitled to charge whatever they feel like for their time and knowledge.
Wait... what? Funny tasting Mexican salsa? Where did that even come from? This is a bad analogy derived from a bad premise.

Dan has never been anything but 100% clear, both in writing, and in person, about what he is teaching. He states this up front at every workshop where the work he is showing comes from and how he has developed it and why it relates to the things all of us train. Perhaps you missed this part of the workshop?
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:00 AM   #292
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Wait... what? Funny tasting Mexican salsa? Where did that even come from? This is a bad analogy derived from a bad premise.

Dan has never been anything but 100% clear, both in writing, and in person, about what he is teaching. He states this up front at every workshop where the work he is showing comes from and how he has developed it and why it relates to the things all of us train. Perhaps you missed this part of the workshop?
Is it possible that you misunderstood the analogy where `Bob` => `Dan` and `Jane` => `a new potion user`? As to "Funny tasting Mexican salsa", why do you think salsa is "Funny"?

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Old 01-11-2013, 10:10 AM   #293
Mert Gambito
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I have been to one of Dan's seminar and while I saw some interesting things . . .
David,

I notice you used the word "saw" to describe the manner in which you received first-hand information at Dan's seminar. My apologies ahead of time for asking redundant questions in the event you've already explained in greater detail your experiences at the seminar -- so feel free to reply with (a) link(s) vs. another drawn-out description -- but to what degree did you take ukemi first hand from him, and did you stay for the whole seminar? I ask because there are a handful of people in Hawaii who've met Dan out of curiosity, but just briefly to get a quick glimpse or hands-on sampling to satisfy their curiosity, yet have drawn the same conclusion about its ties to Aikido (i.e. without attending the entire training to fully learn about the theory and how the method, body movements and skills logically integrate into the waza and other fundamentals of Daito-ryu, Aikido and many other arts). However, to my knowledge, there are 0% detractors when it comes to the quality and significance of the skills and power (which I don't see you disputing, based on your experience).

That said . . .

Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
. . . it is clear that an immense ammount of work and determination has to be invested, preferably in a supportive environment,
to reach the point that is equivalent to "ingesting the potion".
I don't think anyone would dispute the representations of the aiki-jujutsu/do stalwarts like Takeda, M. Ueshiba, Sagawa and Horikawa as dojo/gym rats -- in particular regarding the tanren that developed their respective IP/IS. And, it's a credit to Ueshiba that so many aikidoka have worked so hard for decades, regardless of individual interpretations of aiki and its sublime properties, to attain skills and abilities akin to what he had following his example of daily earnest training.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
This combined with strong personal conviction that the potion is not of Mayan origin contributed to my decision to let it go.
If you've attended a full seminar, then, though I'm a skeptic of your and others' skepticism , I respect your individual conclusion regarding flavor, and personally I'm not in a position to debate that since I'm not an aikidoka (well, outside of IP/IS training anyway) or Aikido historian.

However, regardless of the degree to which you, or anyone else in contemporary Aikido, has had mat time with Dan, how many Aikidoka taking either position regarding this topic have had mat time with Ueshiba as input for their conclusions regarding flavor? As previously mentioned, Meyer Goo, a seminal figure regarding Aikido in Hawaii who trained with Ueshiba while O-Sensei was visiting here, decided to meet Dan this past November. Meyer's original intention was reportedly to just be one of the tire-kickers to whom I referred above -- yet, upon taking ukemi from Dan, decided to attend the entire training, and decisively concluded that Dan's IP/IS are the same flavor as those of Ueshiba. From Meyer's perspective, or from those of folks for whom his perspective matches their own second or further removed conclusions, I'm not sure you can put a price tag on that re-discovery.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 01-11-2013 at 10:22 AM.

Mert
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:10 AM   #294
Lee Salzman
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Is it possible that you misunderstood the analogy where `Bob` => `Dan` and `Jane` => `a new potion user`? As to "Funny tasting Mexican salsa", why do you think salsa is "Funny"?
No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:16 AM   #295
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
No, I understood the analogy, and it is just bogus. It does not apply here. To legitimize it would be making a false implication about the character of information being portrayed by a wealth of generous teachers within IMA community, not just Dan.
Oh ok. Your issue is probably with the whole potion analogy here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=287 .

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Old 01-11-2013, 10:26 AM   #296
sorokod
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Re: Vantage points

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
David,

I notice you used the word "saw" to describe the manner in which you received first-hand information at Dan's seminar. My apologies ahead of time for asking redundant questions in the event you've already explained in greater detail your experiences at the seminar -- so feel free to reply with (a) link(s) vs. another drawn-out description -- but to what degree did you take ukemi first hand from him, and did you stay for the whole seminar? I ask because there are a handful of people in Hawaii who've met Dan out of curiosity, but just briefly to get a quick glimpse or hands-on sampling to satisfy their curiosity, yet have drawn the same conclusion about its ties to Aikido (i.e. without attending the entire training to fully learn about the theory and how the method, body movements and skills logically integrate into the waza and other fundamentals of Daito-ryu, Aikido and many other arts). However, to my knowledge, there are 0% detractors when it comes to the quality and significance of the skills and power (which I don't see you disputing, based on your experience).

That said . . .

I don't think anyone would dispute the representations of the aiki-jujutsu/do stalwarts like Takeda, M. Ueshiba, Sagawa and Horikawa as dojo/gym rats -- in particular regarding the tanren that developed their respective IP/IS. And, it's a credit to Ueshiba that so many aikidoka have worked so hard for decades, regardless of individual interpretations of aiki and its sublime properties, to attain skills and abilities akin to what he had following his example of daily earnest training.

If you've attended a full seminar, then, though I'm a skeptic of your and others' skepticism , I respect your individual conclusion regarding flavor, and personally I'm not in a position to debate that since I'm not an aikidoka (well, outside of IP/IS training anyway) or Aikido historian.

However, regardless of the degree to which you, or anyone else in contemporary Aikido, has had mat time with Dan, how many Aikidoka taking either position regarding this topic have had mat time with Ueshiba as input for their conclusions regarding flavor? As previously mentioned, Meyer Goo, a seminal figure regarding Aikido in Hawaii who trained with Ueshiba while O-Sensei was visiting here, decided to meet Dan this past November. Meyer's original intention was reportedly to just be one of the tire-kickers to whom I referred above -- yet, upon taking ukemi from Dan, decided to attend the entire training, and decisively concluded that Dan's IP/IS are the same flavor as those of Ueshiba. From Meyer's perspective, I'm not sure you can put a price tag on that re-discovery.
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #297
phitruong
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Re: Vantage points

there are also folks who went but had hard time linking of what they saw to their practices. take the ASU folks, for example. Ikeda sensei had shown the IP/IS stuffs for many years, but most folks either couldn't understand it or think it's not achievable so after the seminar(s), they went back and did what they have always done before. so here is the definition of insanity "do the same thing, expect different results".

of course, we also have skeptics who looked at the stuffs and said "that's not my cup of tea or coffee or beer (although i don't know of folks who drink beer out of a cup)". and that's ok too. hey, potato, potatoe, ...

then you have skeptics, who said, all of your 6-dan, 5-dan, oodle-dan teachers that had converted to dan's religion (dan should get a priestly robe with glowing lights and so on, and don't forget beautiful women acolytes) got brain-washed and all their years of experience meant nothing, which meant their approval meant nothing. and since their experience and knowledge are better, they should remain skeptical until dan and other IP teachers can crawl through their doors to prove it to them. to which dan and others said "you are kidding me, right?!!!"

as far as money goes, i think dan and other IP/IS teachers are making money hand over fist or is that fist over hand or fist over fist or one of them over the other. they are living the good life while us, working stiffs, have to work our asses off on these damn solo exercises, with no ending in sight and no fame and fortune, but only with our cup of tea/coffee/liquor of choice to nurse our bruising ego!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:48 AM   #298
Gary David
 
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Re: Vantage points

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.
David
So your issues are it can't be trace directly to Ueshiba and it takes to long to become effective? Not that it isn't effective..........? Am I missing something?

Gary
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:28 PM   #299
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Re: Vantage points

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Hello Mert, I attended the full seminar, Saturday ans Sunday, plus the bit on Friday afternoon.
Hi David
I think you made your point clearly. What he said guys is essentially he thought the material was good but he wasn't satisfied that it was of the same things he was looking for in his Aikido.
I never dispute that with folds...after...we meet. I'm not trying to be all things to all men.
We can debate all day that the things I teach are or are not, what Ueshiba was doing. I clearly disagree with David....but for me that goes right back to the title of the thread...
Vantage points
From where I sit and what I know, it's obvious, but only 99% of people who see it presented agree.
What's wrong with that?

Several shihan, while agreeing this is an absolute essential to Aikido, also think Aikido is more than JUST this.
What's wrong with that?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-11-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #300
DH
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Re: Vantage points

And thanks David.
Finally!!!!
That's what I was looking for with this thread. Positive and negative and a discussion of real experiences. Would you care to add any thoughts as to why the material I presented would not be useful to you in your pursuit of Aikido?
Dan
Edit:
And FWIW, David was a sceptic who bothered to actually show up!! We had fun, he remains a bit skeptical. I won't forget the fact that he showed up.

Last edited by DH : 01-11-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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